Original message
| fragg
 |  "wow. Wadauthor is super dooper"
, posted Sat 12 May 21:34  
OK, so WadAuthor's power and versatility is prolly old hat to you Veteran mappers, but what it did for this map-newby today, is "new" to me and purty awesome.......
I have a big fancy Building with a ton of sectors inside it. A ton of 'em! Different floor and ceiling heights in many sectors. The Bldg sits on the ground (Zero floor-heightt).
Unfortunately I found out today that I need to raise the whole shebang (with its ton of sectors) up in the air, by 256 units.
Ouch.
And also, raise each and every one of its many ceilings by 256 units. I don't mean make all the ceilings the same "256" height, I mean ADD 256 to each ceiling's height.
Ouch again.
Doing all that by hand, would be a long tedious job and I'm sure I'd screw up here and there and have to fix things.
Enter now, good ol' WadAuthor Editor (and the dang thing is 5 years old, and hasn't been updated even once in all that time).
(1).... I "selected" every sector, then r-clicked on last one, and went in to "Properties"... and in "Ceiling Height" box, I typed "++256".
(2).... I then went into "Floor Height" box and typed "++256".
(3).... I then hit "OK".
(4).... I then hit "Checkmap" button and Wauthor complained, "Hey, sector x, sector m, (the list went on and on) are missing textures" (upper, lower, or whatever, the list was long).
5.... I hit "Fix All" button, Wauthor ground away for couple seconds -- then all its "complaints" disappeared. I hit 'Checkmap" again (just to double-check) and all was now OK.
I fired up the game and Voila!!! --there was the Bldg, no longer level with ground -- but now sitting on a 256-unit high "foundation wall".
The Bldg now had all floors 256-units "higher" and all ceilings 256 "higher".
I went inside huge bldg and checked Doors etc. everything was its proper height, etc..
And the "different-height" Ceilings, were still different-heights, plus each one was 256 higher than before. Same for Floors.
I fixed a couple textures I didn't like and was done.
Imagine how long, that would have taken if each sector had to be done by hand? Wow.
Wadauthor, yer OK!
fragg
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Replies:
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| ReX
gurkha_boy@yahoo.com
|  "Re(1):wow. Wadauthor is super dooper"
, posted Sun 13 May 14:07
Heh. You discovered this cool feature a lot sooner than I did, relative to when each of us began editing. Many moons ago, when I first began using those tightly packed sectors to create arches, I would copy the sectors to other maps when I needed to make an arch, and simply change the textures of the sidedefs. Because of the many sectors involved, I was reluctant to have them at floor & ceiling heights different from the original I had done (making the copy and paste operation dead simple). So all my maps typically have low arches at 0 floor, 128 ceiling at top of arch, and my tall arches have 0, 256. Since I discovered the cool feature of WadAuthor several months ago, I've been gleefully creating arches at every conceivable floor-ceiling heights! Plus, with the slope feature of ZDooM 1.23, the arches are smoothly curved and very convincing looking.
Good for you, Fragg, for maximizing the power of your editing tools.
Only two things are certain: DooM and taxes
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| | fragg
| "Re(2):wow. Wadauthor is super dooper" , posted Sun 13 May 20:47
ReX, thanks for the kind words.
Wildman, ReX, Nightmare, Stphrz, Zigmund, Fanatic, Lut, and the other senior troops have been big help.
I have all you guy's many "Replys" printed, stored in ringbinder. And use them regularly. Thanks again to you All.
ReX, wish I could talk you into downloading PrBoom (what a sweet engine) and "familiarizing yourself" with it.
Then I could pick your brain (<g>) as to "why" I'm in crummy 320x200 res. when I fire up Wauthor using PrBoom (PrBoom can do 1024x768).
Can't seem to find an (name unknown) PrBoom2.1.2 file that briefly flashes on the screen when game is loading (it says "Default Res. set to 320x200"). Dang!
Can't find it in PrBoom-ready Wauthor dir. or in PrBoom dir. (Not using a Doom2 dir. because I have the main "Doom2.wad" stored in PrBoom dir).
I've edited the PrBoom.ini (set it to 1024x768) but apparently its being ignored because apparently the above file is "ruling the roost" (i.e. overriding it).
Oh well you have your plate full, so I won't bug you about it.
Thanx again for all the help you've given.
fragg
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| | Searcher
genebird@hotmail.com
| "Re(3):PrBoom resolution question" , posted Tue 15 May 19:28
To Change the res. in Pr Boom either do it in the command line, as is shown in the whatsnew file you downloaded with it, or edit your prboom.cfg
Look for this:
# Video settings
screen_width 320
screen_height 240
fake_contrast 1
use_fullscreen 1
use_vsync 1
translucency 1
tran_filter_pct 66
screenblocks 10
usegamma 3
X_options 0x0
Do your editing and save it.
reboot your system, and the next time you use prboom it should use your new video settings.
Here is the info from the whatsnew file:
"Added commandline switches '-width' and '-height', they are limited from 320x200 to 1600x1200."
Now go kick some butt.
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| | fragg
| "Re(4):PrBoom resolution question" , posted Wed 16 May 19:45
Searcher:
Thanks for the info.
I followed your advice ("edit PrBoom.cfg") and set res. to 1024x768, and saved.
Then fired up my wad.4 wad in Wadauthor (which is prboom-configured) and as screen was loading, it still said "320x200". Sheesh.
Re. your second alternative ("set it from command line") I'm embarrassed to say I don't know how to get to command line in PrBoom. Do I fire up the game and go there, and if I'm in game, how to get to it?
Or am I doing something wrong by always (while in Wadauthor) firing up just the wad I'm working on?
Should I first fire up PrBoom (in PrBoom dir.) and try to set res. from there?
Newby confusion reigns here.
(Yup, reeel Dumb <g>).
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| | Searcher
genebird@hotmail.com
| "Re(5):PrBoom resolution question" , posted Thu 17 May 16:40
Fragg, I'm not sure what to tell you here. I don't use wad author, so I am unsure how to configure your startup for it. You might see if there is a .cfg, .ini, or startup file that wad author uses when it starts prboom, I think that is probably where the problem is.
You can check my guess by booting up PrBoom outside of wad author to see if the res. changes have taken effect. If they work OK outside of wad author then the problem is in the file it uses to start PrBoom.
Open a DOS window and start PrBoom something like this:
No doubt your folders will be different.
d:\DOOM2\TEAMTNT\prboom\prboom.exe -file d:\doom2\anywad.wad
If the res. changes you made and saved, are working this way, then look for a setup file wad author uses to boot PrBoom. Is there a wad author setup? Can you run Wad Author set-up again?
You might also try it this way outside of wad author:
d:\DOOM2\TEAMTNT\prboom\prboom.exe -file d:\doom2\anywad.wad -width 800 -height 600
The command line is the line you use to start the game, like above, before you start the game.
It is the same as creating an icon, to use to start PrBoom. That is the command line.
Very doubtful you can get to the command line once the program is started, because the command line is what tells the system what to boot up. If all else fails spend the several hours needed to read all the files that came with PrBoom and wad author.
All the most useful command line switches, as well as some great cheats, are in a file called Boom.txt that you downloaded with PrBoom. If you want a complete list they are in a file called "readme-command-line.txt" Take a 7-up along if you are going to read this file, it is VERY dry reading, but those guys have done a great job with all the stuff PrBoom can do.
If all this fails make sure you have the most up to date copy of PrBoom, because ther very early ones did not support hi-res.
Good Luck,
Searcher
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| | FRAGG
| "a tardy thanx to Searcher..." , posted Mon 28 May 16:57
Searcher.... I've been "PC-crashed" for a week or more, so I just saw your reply today when I returned to Doomworld.
I'll give it a workout as soon as I complete fixing my system.
Big thanks, for the detailed instructions.
Fragg
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| Jayextee
Jxt@Misery.co.uk
-
| "Re(1):wow. Wadauthor is super dooper" , posted Sun 13 May 10:41
WadAuthor is the BEST. But I don't use it, because I'm a WadEd purist :D
_______________________________________________________________
As I descend from grace In arms of undertow
I will take my place In the great below.
http://www.geocities.com/jayextee
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| | Lüt
Albino Negro 
toruonda@home.com
23065834
| "Re(2):wow. Wadauthor is super dooper" , posted Sun 13 May 22:32
quote:
WadEd purist :D
...
YES!!
::kisses JXT::
---
You have been bothered by: Lüt
"Living Colour is my favorite black metal band."
www.doomworld.com/insanity
www.mp3.com/dyingcorpse
www.thebarnacle.f2s.com
AIM: Dying Corpse - SB4824 - XtbbTSzNyKw5sRB4 <-- Talk to me dammit!
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| | fragg
| "Re(3):wow. Wadauthor is super dooper" , posted Mon 14 May 16:05
Just curious ...how come you guys like Waded?
I've never used it but I'm sure it must be nice since you seem to like it so much.
What is it you like it for?
What are its good/bad points?
Is the author updating it?
fragg
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| | Lüt
Albino Negro
toruonda@home.com
23065834
| "Re(4):wow. Wadauthor is super dooper" , posted Tue 15 May 01:36
I like WadEd because even if it doesn't work 2/3 of the time, it's still 3 times as fast and easy as any other editor. Basically, here's how it works: 1) Draw your map. 2) Make sectors. 3) Change stuff. So easy I learned it in a month. (Knowing nothing of Doom either.)
---
You have been bothered by: Lüt
"Living Colour is my favorite black metal band."
www.doomworld.com/insanity
www.mp3.com/dyingcorpse
www.thebarnacle.f2s.com
AIM: Dying Corpse - SB4824 - XtbbTSzNyKw5sRB4 <-- Talk to me dammit!
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| | Zigmund
z_ozwell@hotmail.com
| "Re(5):wow. WadEd is super dooper" , posted Tue 15 May 09:54
I'd have to agree with Lut. WadEd is very simple to use. Its not bogged down with extra stuff you really dont need when creating a map.
Plus you can draw with WadEd. You're not limited to starting off with a square or circle and the connecting of rooms is as simple as drawing another sector right onto the previous sector. The best part is now if you don't like the line thats between the 2 sectors, just delete it and recreate the 2 sectors into one. Try that with Wadauthor!
Download it and give it a try. And yeah it does work in windows even though it is a Dos based program.
"POLICE STATION TOILET STOLEN...
Cops have nothing to go on..."
-unknown
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| | Lüt
Albino Negro
toruonda@home.com
23065834
| "Re(6):wow. WadEd is super dooper" , posted Tue 15 May 10:10
The thing I like best is that it doesn't make sectors on you. I tried drawing things with Deep and it starts making all these sectors for me! WHAT THE HELL IS THAT SHIT!? Anyways that's why I can't stand most other editors, you have to change all this crap around if you decide to change your mind about how these scenes are going to look and work and it's like BLEH! You're not supposed to do that in the first place!
Now I'm not making any sense but I know what I mean so there.
::goes back to padded cell::
---
You have been bothered by: Lüt
"Living Colour is my favorite black metal band."
www.doomworld.com/insanity
www.mp3.com/dyingcorpse
www.thebarnacle.f2s.com
AIM: Dying Corpse - SB4824 - XtbbTSzNyKw5sRB4 <-- Talk to me dammit!
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| | deepteam
jack@sbsoftware.com
| "Re(7): WadEd is ..." , posted Tue 15 May 13:16
"it doesn't make sectors on you"
================================
Here's what "THAT SHIT" is all about. It has just reduced the number of steps required. IOW, it takes ONE FEWER step to create a basic level vs Waded - wasn't that your earlier point - # of steps?
Why have ANOTHER step for something that is ALWAYS REQUIRED?
The DeePsea interactive tutorial shows how one can draw two rooms, connect them with a corridor with nothing else really required. Sounds like one step to me.
There are various easy ways to edit "sectors". Shortkey keyboard commands or the traditional Dialog.
In summary, Waded readily crashes, can't make large levels and yet it's claimed to be easy? Something doesn't make sense here.
Stubborn arguments are just that. It's sure as hell doesn't follow anything logical. So if you like the tiny view, the crashes, the memory limits and so forth - great, just don't drift into "shit" land and invite an argument.
OTOH, I'd be happy to -factually- debate (not flame) the merits of what it takes to make a level in either and we'll see how far it gets<g>
www.sbsoftware.com
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| | Lüt
Albino Negro
toruonda@home.com
23065834
| "Re(8): WadEd is ..." , posted Thu 17 May 01:12
OK I didn't really wanna argue this but anyways;
Maybe it's just a personal thing but I hate programs doing stuff I don't tell them to do. Like when I start media player; why does it go to a website, load a GUI, and connect to the internet to check for updates and do god knows what else, all behind my back? I just try to play a damn WAV file or music CD.
Now yours is nowhere near that bad, but still, dealing with those automatic sectors is a pain in the ass. They've caused more trouble than it's even worth going into. Trying to add the simplest things like lights and indented spaces in walls for things like banners/faces and torches causes enough problems, I have never dared to start a level from scratch. Actually, I have, but with older versions. I made a staircase for Hexen once, and it actually worked :)
But let me explain my latest venture into actual map editing and not just cut+paste/new object placement.
Man I need a diagram.
BEFORE: www.doomworld.com/insanity/images/sew_01.jpg
AFTER: www.doomworld.com/insanity/images/sew_02.jpg
Basically, there's a little ceiling structure and support beams going down a hall with lights on the walls casting shadows. The original shadows between the bars were a straight line. I changed them to be angled. In WadEd, I would delete the straight lines (just the 16-pixel ones), draw the angled ones in, click "Make Sector" in the giant beam sector, and then again for the small shadow areas. Simple. But now in Deep I delete the lines, all goes fine. Then I draw the new ones in. It seems random which sectors get assigned to these lines. The front sides generally got it right, however the back sides of the angles were a separate sector from the actual beam that was casting their shadow. So we had the walls on the beams be something like Sectors 895, 896, 897, etc. and the backside of the shadows be 2,810, 2,811, 2,812, etc. So for each of the shadows whose sectors I want to close, I have to load the line properties for the beam they're connected to, check that sector number, go into the line properties for the shadow, open the side 2 properties, change it to match the sector it's supposed to be connected to in the first place, move to the second one, do that one, 10 times over. Then you go to check the unused sectors, and there's like 13 entries for sector data that doesn't exist in the map, created by the auto-make-sector feature.
The other one that bugs the crap outta me is trying to make ceiling lights. Little 32x32 or 64x64 squares. Let's say I put one in sector 1,727. It's to be hanging down 8 pixels from the rest of the ceiling. I draw the 4 lines in. Everything's great, except they're one-sided, like a pillar. Makes sense of course, BUT, now I go to the line properties to add the second sidedef, and when it does that, it makes the second side the same sector reference as the first side. So it's like useless lines sitting in the middle of ONE sector, not two separate sector. Now I go to change the reference number on the new backsides of the lines. I want a new sector, but alas, I can't create the new sector I need simply by making their sector reference one number higher than the last defined sector in the level (it'll say there's a limit of 0-3,128 and it won't let me enter anything past 3,128). So what I have to do is go to the outskirts of the map, draw as many isolated dummy squares as I need for sectors, check the sector numbers of those dummy squares, renumber the ceiling lights to the now-existing sectors made by those dummy squares, delete the dummy squares, THEN change the properties the way I need to.
There's another problem I had with making things like torchholders in walls and windows, etc. where it would want to "close" these off by adding a line going from the first point to the last point and scrambling the sectors they belonged to instead of just leaving my damn lines where I put them, but I haven't had it happen much recently so I don't really care too much, it's quicker to just cut out that section of the map, post it in WadEd and re-paste it back in with WadAuthor. I tried pasting with Deep but it seemed to like making some of my two-sided lines one-sided, along with changing some tags.
---
You have been bothered by: Lüt
"Living Colour is my favorite black metal band."
www.doomworld.com/insanity
www.mp3.com/dyingcorpse
www.thebarnacle.f2s.com
AIM: Dying Corpse - SB4824 - XtbbTSzNyKw5sRB4 <-- Talk to me dammit!
|
| | deepteam
jack@sbsoftware.com
| "Re(9): WadEd is different from DeePsea" , posted Thu 17 May 11:09:
First off this post is too damn long. So only you and I will read it:)
DeeP and DeePsea are TWO different programs and do not work the same way. You keep writing DeeP, so I'll assume you meant DeePsea 11.01. What is interesting is that your argument centers on DeePsea not working just like Waded - a very editor centric pov. And of course the ever present subjective angle.
For any editor, READ the help and/or LEARN a different way of doing some stuff. One needs to experiment. I could argue that Waded (name your editor) screws everything up because it doesn't operate the same way as DeePsea. A silly way to argue.
Here's an example of editor centric arguing - Waded saves a level with invalid sectors. You actually have to go into "draw" mode and then select the type of object to drag. When drawing in Waded one has to take one's eye off the drawing to see the length of a line. The file open/save is extremely useless. What's that all about? Sounds like a lot of work to me.
That was just an example of the type of argument you presented - in reverse of course.
I doubt very much you can't start a level from scratch using the ON SCREEN interactive demo. But you have to TRY it. You say the same thing about Wadauthor. Both are just as easy (or easier) than Waded. In fact, for DeePsea it's EXACTLY the same- minus the "make sector" step (lol). Of course it's Ctrl+D (or the menu Draw, or Ins in vertex mode) to start drawing.
For the pasting comment, think some more about the general case - not just what you have done. In fact, DeePsea is unique in recognizing pasting problems.
Normally you do NOT want the tags duplicated - so when one pastes (like a complete level from another PWAD), not changing the tags can cause you lots of grief. So the opposite is true, there are very few instances where the same tags should be kept.
When pasting, it makes sense to check to see that in the current "context" some 2-sided lines should be made 1-sided (partial pastes). However, (as stated in the docs or if one looked at the F5 options), select PASTE AS IS, to just leave stuff alone. Mind boundaries are always a problem. Maybe because Waded has no help, you never realized it was there?
As for your drawing example - I have to guess a little. DeePsea works within the "context" of surrounding areas to automatically create new sectors (as does DCK & Dmapedit - both good editors too). Normally, this saves you ONE step (vs Waded). So all the work creating the level goes much faster than with Waded.
However, changing areas requires some understanding. In your example, when you delete the line separating the areas, you created an invalid area (run the DeePsea error checker and see - I'd say Waded error checker, but here isn't one<g>).
No biggie, just fix the sectors assigned. Select the linedefs, click on the "hot" sector area on the bottom and all better. Essentially the same thing as with Waded. Sure, some specific examples can be "easier" in 1 editor vs the other, but hardly something to make a case with. It's all about experience with whatever editor one uses.
So the very thing you complain about, normally saves you 1 step. Waded creates invalid areas and one HAS to be sure to fix them. OTOH, DeePsea -normally- creates valid areas.
Drawing inside an area creates 1 vs 2-sided linedefs depending on the direction drawn. That's just one of the rules you never bothered to read about. You can also create new "sectors" just by selecting the linedefs and pressing "ins". You can also add Sidedefs.
Lot's of ways to make lights, etc, including F9 predefined, which does it all at once. Pressing Esc when drawing does NOT close the area off. ALL these issues revolve around you not reading the help - period.
In fact, editing the different hardcore aspects of a level is much easier than with Waded. Changing the actual sidedefs and sectors values - a requirement for TRICKS - is duck simple. How does Waded let you do that? Sounds like you have NO CONTROL here at all.
DeePsea has many commands to help CONTROL your design. I could have selected all the "sectors" and merged them into one, eliminating the invalid references - all better now for doing the drawing changes. This also helps stock DOOM visi issues.
Other CONTROL commands pack/unpack sidedefs, add or delete sidedefs, change global light, heights, blah blah. Full screen texture browsing rather than an almost useless 1 at a time view. DeePsea gives one the ability to do a complete TC without leaving the pgm (assuming sound/graphics are done).
It's funny that you "hate programs doing stuff "I don't tell them to"? Right this very minute your "program" viewing this is doing zillions of things you didn't "tell it to do". In fact, ALL programs do things you didn't tell them to do - Including Waded. How? Well it made Linedefs, sidedefs and vertexes when you drew. It just forgot about the sector - because that's much harder to do<g>
What are you doing with Waded? You need to use DEU for much better "control". There you get to start from ground zero with vertexes. Now there's CONTROL! A bit grunty, but you do get to bask in all that work, knowing you did it all yourself.
It's like building a house and you want to cut down the tree, split the wood, make the nails .. for "total control". That makes so much sense:)
Did you know that one really has very little control with Waded? The only "control" you have is via the "buttons" - what it DOES FOR YOU (outside of your control). However, there is NO CONTROL over the raw aspects of a level (sidedef/sector values or flags). Nor can you control any aspect of the WAD structure. So much for the control argument.
Subjectively, each person likes whatever they want, for whatever reason - that's the way the world turns. That does not justify posting stuff that is questionable in objectivity and show total lack of trying to read the help or even the shortcut key summary. It's the only reason I replied:)
www.sbsoftware.com
[this message was edited by deepteam on Thu 17 May 11:21] |
| | Jayextee
Jxt@Misery.co.uk
-
| "Re(8): WadEd is ..." , posted Wed 16 May 12:19
Hmmmm.... Wheras, yes, I'll concede, that WadEd has to be the second-worst editor (Worst? EdMap, IMO) it's the freedom it allows when editing that appeals to myself, and the other users.
Even though it's an extra (Needless) step, the MAKE SECTOR gadget at least employs a 'feeling' of being in control that other ediotrs don't give. Even though sector building is a REQUIREMENT for WAD editing.
Also, the SEC DEFINE gadget is IMO a godsend. There is no messing with extra menus/screens/data for creating 'illegal' or special sector configurations - it's as simple as click the required line, then BACK, or FRONT.
Your arguments about a 'tiny view' fall on deaf ears here. When making a level, the author knows it by heart anyway, so there is no need to view all the map on screen. And, most editors nowadays (The people, not the programs) are Zoomed-in constantly, adding eye candy. The extra screen space is used IMHO a lot more effectively with Linedef/sector/things properties, as well as Zoom control and a miniature 'browser' for textures/flats etc. - Something other editors have to call up seperately.
WadEd remains a simple, intuitive editor. It may be buggy as hell, but there's nothing there that can't be worked around. But it's simple. Sectors can be the EXACT shape required when made, lessening all that tedious dragging. Tagging is done with the click of a button, as is deleting, remaking sectors (Example: You have two rooms and a corridor. Delete the joining lines, so it's all one 'room'. ONE click will make this lot into a sector).
Most of the simplicity is down to the fact that EVERYTHING, bar one action (The flipping of Linedefs) can be done with the mouse, on it's own. Not even EdMap does that - and that WAS, if I remember, the initial design brief.
So with it's simplicity, WadEd doesn't cut down by one step when level editing. It cuts many. And even though it's the buggiest editor there is, and is size-limited, due to DOS limitations, there is a certain demographic that will always choose WadEd.
Best leave it at that, rather than your increasingly forceful attempts to make us all DeepSea users ;)
There was your factual debate. Your move, Jack. :))
_______________________________________________________________
As I descend from grace In arms of undertow
I will take my place In the great below.
http://www.geocities.com/jayextee
|
| | deepteam
jack@sbsoftware.com
| "Re(9): WadEd is fun to compare to" , posted Wed 16 May 14:00
The first thing is that you don't know DeePsea well:)
The second thing is that you resort to subjective statements - not *objective* statements. That's hardly the basis for a "factual" argument - despite your claim. Oh well - that's always the case.
DeePsea bottom displays are "hot". Just click on any texture and you get an instant browser. Ditto for all the areas. So besides giving way more visual detail than Waded (something claimed to be neat), they provide instant editing access points - plus they can be "hidden" with a keypress - "I" - giving you a FULL screen.
The "freedom" (subjective) claimed is hardly different from many other editors, not just DeePsea. So even though that was subjective, it just shows you haven't really delved deeply into other editors. DCK (just to pick something else) has the same "freedom" (and it's pretty too).
Arguing that something that's not needed gives one control is silly. That's exactly the same argument given for Deu (and they believe it too<g>). So the harder one works at making a level, the more "control" one has? Yeah sure:)
With DeePsea, you can create a new "sector" just by selecting the linedefs and pressing INS (just to pick a "simple" one).
I don't know why the "drawing" was brought up. If anything, DeePsea has more control - showing you line sizes - and fewer steps. Plus you can actually cross over a line with automatic intersection creation. You can also start drawing anywere on top of a line and it will split right there.
Arguing that a more comprehensive view offers no advantages may apply if you have a small monitor and you couldn't see the big difference it makes. The texture browsers improve enormously with a larger screen (something Waded has a crude version of - so here there is no point of comparison).
Since Waded is size handicapped, the levels one can load are so small that one never realizes why zooming to 32x can be required. Nor why a big view cuts down a LOT on needless scrolling.
Speaking of which, taking up all that screen real estate ALL the time just makes it even worse. Not only can one not scale with resolutions, there is no control over how it wipes out a significant part of the display. Dialog interfaces rules the planet since they are so flexible! Combined with real-time feed back, one get's the best of both worlds.
DeePsea has 3 ways to scroll - touching the edges (a neat DEU idea), clicking at the edges or the cursor keys. So if you like mouse control, you should LOVE that. You can also press both mouse buttons and +/- ZOOM by letting one go.
Arguing that everything is done with the mouse is cheesy<g>. Most users quickly find that keyboard shortcuts the fastest way to get around. However, DeePsea duplicates most actions via the mouse, including flipping of linedefs - it's just slower:)
NO editor is "intuitive" (subjective again) and Waded is no different. Besides a disfunctional help, it has some quirky interfaces. E.g, the file browsing support is awful - even for a DOS program. The DOS DeeP is a good point of comparison:)
The reason I wrote has nothing to do with "forceful attempts..", but rather a response to silly statements. Much as you are doing right now. So if you really want to stick to "facts", it's your "move". But please stay away from stuff that is purely in your mind.
It's funny that your conclusion listed Waded as the limited "buggiest editor" (fact) and conclude with another *subjective* opinion. I fully appreciate that it's hard to learn any editor. If one does not edit much, makes no difference. DeePsea is not for everyone. I tried to keep it short too.
www.sbsoftware.com
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| | Jayextee
Jxt@Misery.co.uk
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| "Re(10): WadEd is fun to compare to" , posted Mon 21 May 10:31
Note how I say nothing about Deepsea - I haven't used it at all, I merely compare against WadAuthor.
I _will_ give DeepSea a try though.
But at the end of the day, people are all different and have different opinions, upon which it seems my 'facts' were based upon.
I just like WadEd, so stop hitting me, you nasty man ;)
_______________________________________________________________
As I descend from grace In arms of undertow
I will take my place In the great below.
http://www.geocities.com/jayextee
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| | fragg
| "Re(8): WadEd is ..." , posted Tue 15 May 15:23
I didn't know Deepsea could do it easy like that.
dammit, Jack ... you keep it up an' yer gonna have me sending in my Deepsea reg. fee <grin>.
fragg
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| | deepteam
jack@sbsoftware.com
| "Easy is as easy does" , posted Tue 15 May 16:35
Yup, it's that easy. As I've mentioned before, the real learning curve is not some editor, but really what exactly making a "level" is all about.
Personal learning curves vary according to one's ability to relate to an editor's docs and initial style. It's not a good/bad thing, just individual differences/tastes.
Once one is familiar with all those linedefs, sidedefs and sectors and actually making levels, then it's a little easier to evaluate. Sort of like buying your 1st used car<g>
As I've said before, the prefab method is available in DeePsea, but when all is said and done, the line drawing method gets the job done a lot faster/easier:)
I have both trade-in and bribe discounts available (lol).
www.sbsoftware.com
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| | fragg
| "Re(1):Easy is as easy does" , posted Wed 16 May 19:57
Jack, re. building a sector:
Are you saying that with Deep, you can just start drawing lines, and when u get the shape you want -- you can hit a "make sector" button (like they say Waded can do) and bingo! -- you have a sector? Or is there more to it?
fragg
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| | deepteam
jack@sbsoftware.com
| "Re(2):Building a sector" , posted Mon 28 May 19:33
Sorry, I never saw this for some reason.
It's actually a bit simpler than that. You just draw the lines/shape you want and BINGO, you are DONE. There is no extra "make sector" required. (For now, make a complete area though if you haven't messed with the details of references yet, to make it easier to understand).
If you draw counter-clockwise you get 2-sided areas and clockwise = 1-sided. There's a reason for each.
If you want to change a sector assignment (and/or add a 2nd side), you can select the linedefs and then press Ins and change/add sidedef/sector references (there are also other ways). This is "make sector" if you will.
But the cool thing is you can combine drawing with prefabs on demand, making it much easier to create complicated, non-uniform shapes.
A sector is the floor and ceiling height+ textures, NOT the area drawn. The Sidedefs of a level reference these "sectors". If that is confusing, it's best to review the subject "A detailed look at Wad files" in the online DeePsea help. Some stuff out there is incorrect on "sectors" so be careful of what you read.
As I've mentioned before, learning the actual way a level is put together is the key to understanding and learning to interact with the tools of any editor. For beginners, the more limited prefabs are easier to use, until they finally get it:)
www.sbsoftware.com
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| | fragg
| "Re(2):wow. Wadauthor is super dooper" , posted Sun 13 May 18:49
Jay, we'll convert you yet <g>
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| | Zigmund
z_ozwell@hotmail.com
| "Re(2):wow. Wadauthor is super dooper" , posted Sun 13 May 17:27
Now there's an editor i wish someone would upgrade.... or at least squash that damn build sector bug.
"POLICE STATION TOILET STOLEN...
Cops have nothing to go on..."
-unknown
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| | fragg
| "Re(3):wow. Wadauthor is super dooper" , posted Sun 13 May 19:10
Zig, does Wauthor give you a "sector-build" problem?
Guess I'm lucky. So far not a single glitch in that Editor yet (for me anyway).
Imagine, Wadauthor came out when John Romero was still a partner in Id, Doom2 ruled the web, Ion Storm didn't even exist, Daikatana tragedy was still in far-future, and Quake-1 was still on drawing boards with everyone wondering what it would be like.
Wadauthor was running faithful during all those years and has been ever since, and never been upgraded.
John Williston (Phileosophos) really knows, how to code.
Hmm, that reminds me, wonder how Phileos is making out with his New Wadauthor since his ISP put the screws to him with a 330% rate hike?
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| | Zigmund
z_ozwell@hotmail.com
| "Re(4):Fragg" , posted Sun 13 May 19:27
No i was reffering to wadEd. It has a nasty sector building bug. I like Wadauthor but i can't build a damn thing with it. I usually build a map with WadEd and then use Wadauthor for error checking or to mess around with some of the other cool stuff wadauthor has.
"POLICE STATION TOILET STOLEN...
Cops have nothing to go on..."
-unknown
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| Lüt
Albino Negro
toruonda@home.com
23065834
| "Re(1):wow. Wadauthor is super dooper" , posted Sat 12 May 21:45
quote:
Imagine how long, that would have taken if each sector had to be done by hand? Wow.
...
I don't have to imagine, I've been doing it like that for years :|
---
You have been bothered by: Lüt
"Living Colour is my favorite black metal band."
www.doomworld.com/insanity
www.mp3.com/dyingcorpse
www.thebarnacle.f2s.com
AIM: Dying Corpse - SB4824 - XtbbTSzNyKw5sRB4 <-- Talk to me dammit!
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| | fragg
| "Re(2):wow. Wadauthor is super dooper" , posted Sat 12 May 22:14
Heh, heh!
Lut, you got patience of Job <G>
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| | Lüt
Albino Negro
toruonda@home.com
23065834
| "Re(3):wow. Wadauthor is super dooper" , posted Sat 12 May 22:27
You could say that :) The biggest I did was 2,465 sectors. Took a few days.
---
You have been bothered by: Lüt
"Living Colour is my favorite black metal band."
www.doomworld.com/insanity
www.mp3.com/dyingcorpse
www.thebarnacle.f2s.com
AIM: Dying Corpse - SB4824 - XtbbTSzNyKw5sRB4 <-- Talk to me dammit!
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| | Lazer
-@-.com
| "Re(4):wow. Wadauthor is super dooper" , posted Sun 13 May 14:25
...........Wouldn't it be easier to change the "other" sectors in the level? Or were there more than 2,465 "other" sectors in the level?
Current Projects:
Underworld
The Doom Down Under Website:
www.devin-afshin.com/DDU/DDUMain.htm
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| | Lüt
Albino Negro
toruonda@home.com
23065834
| "Re(5):wow. Wadauthor is super dooper" , posted Sun 13 May 22:30
The "other" level had like 3 times as many. It was only 64 pixels too. For one little drop into the other section of the level.
---
You have been bothered by: Lüt
"Living Colour is my favorite black metal band."
www.doomworld.com/insanity
www.mp3.com/dyingcorpse
www.thebarnacle.f2s.com
AIM: Dying Corpse - SB4824 - XtbbTSzNyKw5sRB4 <-- Talk to me dammit!
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| | fragg
| "Re(4):wow. Wadauthor is super dooper" , posted Sun 13 May 12:20
"2465 sectors"...??
Incredible. Never will I approach a quarter of that.
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| | stphrz'
stphrz@yahoo.com
Nah...
| "Re(5):wow. Wadauthor is super dooper" , posted Sun 13 May 17:34
HA! That's what you think......
=)
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| | fragg
| "Re(6):wow. Wadauthor is super dooper" , posted Mon 14 May 16:11
Steve, you flatter me if you think I'll ever get more than a fraction of Lut's 2000 sectors in one of MY wads. A wad with 2000 sectors is real heavy-duty, SERIOUS map-editing. No?
fragg
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| | Lüt
Albino Negro
toruonda@home.com
23065834
| "Re(7):wow. Wadauthor is super dooper" , posted Tue 15 May 00:11
Heh. Alright I should dig up these Millennium maps:
Map21: 95% complete
Things: 782
Verts: 7960
Lines: 10892
Sides: 17318
Sectors: 2972
Map22: 80% complete
Things: 850
Verts: 9995
Lines: 11973
Sides: 20713
Sectors: 2791
Map23: 90% complete
Things: 755
Verts: 3116
Lines: 3794
Sides: 5802
Sectors: 805
Map24: I'll never be done with this one
Things: 1783
Verts: 12753
Lines: 15621
Sides: 28206
Sectors: 3694
What sucks about Map24 is that I reached a WAD structure limit with the SideDefs about 40% of the way through what I had intended to do. It would be possible to break it into a hub if only we had ZDoom features in Millennium, but obviously that's not gonna happen :( so it's stuck as a tiny little place in the middle of nowhere.
---
You have been bothered by: Lüt
"Living Colour is my favorite black metal band."
www.doomworld.com/insanity
www.mp3.com/dyingcorpse
www.thebarnacle.f2s.com
AIM: Dying Corpse - SB4824 - XtbbTSzNyKw5sRB4 <-- Talk to me dammit!
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| | Lüt
Albino Negro
toruonda@home.com
23065834
| "Re(8):wow. Wadauthor is super dooper" , posted Tue 15 May 01:32
Now that I think about it, I think I got the wrong end of the sector-count that I did before.
---
You have been bothered by: Lüt
"Living Colour is my favorite black metal band."
www.doomworld.com/insanity
www.mp3.com/dyingcorpse
www.thebarnacle.f2s.com
AIM: Dying Corpse - SB4824 - XtbbTSzNyKw5sRB4 <-- Talk to me dammit!
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