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8/18/98 Mailbag

Doom2000? Could such a product actually happen? Everyone hopes that it could -- who wouldn't like a reincarnation of the greatest game ever made? What, however, would this game be like? The bickering starts in...


Ive been tring to keep up with the Doom2000 talk. I also saw Carmacks reply. Maybe not a complete redesign of Doom is needed in this case. Doom IS a great game. Quake I/II are great games. The one thing that makes me play Quake everyday is the FANTASIC multi-player support. After you're bored betting the game you can go frag your friends. Call me crazy, but, i think with enhanced multi-player support to the origianl Doom or DII would come back to FULL life REAL fast. Maybe 16 player or even 8 would be great, with Gamespy or similar support. Maybe Quakeworld style support for Doom? Multi-player is the key. I know for a fact that if a revisited (GOOD) multi-player version of Doom (that worked good in windows) came out, my copy of Quake II would not see the light of multi-player for a long time. Not that Quake II sucks. I just dont have the computer power to run it smoothly over the net. I dont have a local Doom server (feel my pain?) to play on. If i did this e-mail might not have been writen. Anyway, someone sparked the idea of Doom2000! Maybe extryme multi-player Doom will have some value to the comunity.

Mike Tenbroeck

This was the initial letter -- you might see some one further down the line which reply to this one specifically. HE doesn't have a local Doom server to play on? What, does he think anyone does?!?

if light of all the talk about Doom 2000 i would like to see both (multiplayer and singal) that would make me want to buy if with Internet play and all the others

Cataract2

So you would like to see features that would make you want to buy it? Very zen.

I can't run Quake 2. I've never gotten to play it. Even though I haven't, I still believe Doom is the best game ever. When Id made it, they didn't just focus on making the game look realistic, and the monsters though, they also made it fun at the same time. You're also not some guy who has the mentality of a 12 year who's mad because his ship got shot down. You are one person, "YOU." Actually you are a space marine. Another thing is Doom's monsters, they're all perfect enemies. They all look good, they all fight well even though their AI's primitive. Then there's the weapons, the pistol to the BFG. All the weapons look spectacular, and you're holding them out in front of you, not to the side where it's hard to aim without a crosshair. Then there's the Doom engine. Being upgraded constantly now days, making it better and better. Soon it might surpass the build engine, a pretty good engine if 3D Realms would just learn how to use it right. The doom engine allows for so many crisp, clean and cool levels. It doesn't much in the way of atmosperics, yet. It also has it's limitations. However when making levels, you save a good sized doom level in a matter of minutes. Anyone who's tried to make a good sized quake level knows the frustraition of waiting forever so the level can compile. While they all sit and wait on that, I build and finish a good doom level and have fun playing it. Making levels with Duke Nukem 3D is fun at first, but when you start adding monsters, it makes it look dumb. It's because Duke's monsters look dumb and act dumb. Then there's Blood which was almost like Doom reborn, but having zombies who run circles around the player, it loses some of it's fun. I must say, the Bloodbath deathmatch in it is a blast. However now lets get to multiplayer. Duke Nukem, Quake, Quake 2, Hexen 2, Blood, and Shadow Warrior can all be played on the internet, as well over a TCP/IP, IPX, LAN, and Modem. Doom lacks the Internet aspect. If it had the Multiplayer capabilities of these games. I hate to sound cheesey, but "they will come back." The doomers. Doom with it's fast and furious gameplay over the internet would be a smash. At least for me it would. I know other's who would agree. If Doom comes back with Internet play, it might just find quite a few players wanting to play.

Jim Kirk

...and your thoughts on Doom2000 are?

I think this is a really cool idea, but I think you should use the Quake1/2 engine entirely, cuz I've always dreamed of a polygon based DOOM w/ 3d monsters, more complex levels, water, AI, all that stuff. But hey! Its just a idea.

Edythe Vaissade

Actually, I think that... eh, just read the next letter :)

First off, any Doom2000 project would *have* to have great TCP/IP support. The DoomWorld program is way too unstable -- I put my money on Doom Legacy's TCP/IP when it comes out; it's already proven itself to be a very stable port for standard IPX/LAN games. The rest of the engine would be Bruce Lewis's purported second-gen glDoom entitled OmniDoom: an .EXE with both software and hardware rendering supported, as well as all the new Boom enhancements.

So basically, the whole thing would be Boom with hicolor/hires support in software, Doom Legacy's multiplayer code, and glDoom's hardware engine. I would imagine that the hardware-only version of it would have some other bells and whistles thrown in that didn't interfere directly with gameplay: stuff like maybe putting mild halos around the flames on the torches and the light bulbs in the, well, electric lights, and giving the BFG blast a big lens flare. Eyecandy stuff like that.

You wouldn't need any new monsters or new weapons; the existing ones are just fine. id would contract individual people on the internet (not just hiring a group like TeamTNT as a whole) to make the new levels and new textures. I don't know how many levels would be needed, but since the thing would be on CD I would imagine a whole lot. Maybe some cinematics as well? Put in some variations on the deathmatch theme (CTF, TeamFortress, stuff like that) with levels made specifically for it. Then package the whole thing and sell it. No way it would sell as well as the original Doom/Doom2 but it would sell pretty damn well... if not for anything else but the TCP/IP support. Hell, I would buy it :)

Linguica

Yes! Exactly right! You are a god!

I agree many people, family and friends of mine have ceased playing the many versions of Doom games for games with easyer to setup Multi player support. They like ones that are easy to play over the net. They did not like the hassle of using and setting up(through Dos) Doom games for modem use ,and also getting only TWO PLAYERS!! Also Mike I do fell you pain cause I know of no doom server were I live. Me and the few that I've talked to about this said that would be perfect. I have hoped for some thing like this but never thought I would see it. Now the "Doom2000 Thoughts" article has raised my hopes. Thanks for you time.

Robert E Humbertson Jr.

Another person who doesn't know of any local Doom servers? Am I missing something really important here, or what?

I REALLY think that there should be a new doom. I was also talking to some people i know and they really like the idea and would want a new doom also. Well some things i would like to see are:

1) 3DFX support -definatly
2) multiplayer like quake (internet, modem, serial, LAN, and also UP TO 4 PEOPLE AT A TIME ON THE SAME COMPUTER!!
3) new demons and wepons (some old)
4) colored lighting
5) crouching and jumping
6) 1st person or 3rd person views
7) force feed back
8) LOTS of levels
9) Final bosses at the end of every episode or unit or whatever
10) at least 20 dm levels
11) very good multiplayer code (so there will be as little lag as possible so multiplayer can be enjoyable by every one even with slow connections.

Well thats it for now hope to see a new doom!!

Thomas Grimes

Let me see... glDoom, we all want it, only if Adrian Carmack could do them which he couldn't, Thrust and maybe Doom Legacy, make it more like Quake, chasecam mod, why the hell, how many is LOTS, there already are final bosses, sure why not, sounds like number 2.

I have some comments about Doom2000 - I agree with what Mike Tenbroeck said. I have yet to play a proper deathmatch game of doom (I played with WDMP the split screen source mod, and that was cool, but nowt as good as full screen would be). One thing I love about quake is first the quakeworld support - "doomworld" (no, not www.doomworld.com!) support would be killer! And, most of all, I love the QuakeC bot add-ons for Quake - Reaper Bot, Eliminator Bot, and CTF+ Bot are AMAZING. The AI is killer, and as yet there is no Doom Bot, besides Mr. Doom's Computer Deathmatch, which considering the fact that it is a dehacked patch is reasonably good, but not nearly as good as the Quake Mods. So, if a Doom2000 game was released with Bot support, that was also be damn nifty.

Neil Thomas

AI pretty much never lives up to the hype. Look at Unreal's -- pretty damn good, but still people are complaining that it's nothing near like it should have been for the time invested. A bot might be a neat little feature but only if it wasn't hyped and said to be so damn cool and all that. In a game like Doom, AI is unimportant -- instead of sparse but smart monsters there are huge hoards of stupid monsters. The two different types of design result in two very different types of gameplay.

My wish list

What it should have: Internet play
looking up and down
mouse look
cd audio
a new weapon possibly
translucent effects
atmospherics
pyrotechniques i.e-exploding walls
sliding doors
possibly use the Build engine or a variant (Id could put it to better use than 3D Realms ever could)
better AI
more monsters
zombies without long range weapons who roam around and try to hit you when you get too close (remember all those George Romero movies?)
high resolution modes
3Dfx support (I wouldn't benefit from it, but others would)
a dead Duke Nukem
a dead Lo Wang
ambient sound effects
above and below water sectors
floors above floors
scrolling floors and ceilings
moving sky textures

What shouldn't be in it,
alien-like characters
mutated animals or policemen
a bad ending
polygonal monsters
polygonal weapons
non-Id personnel (I want this to be from Id)

Jim Kirk

What, you again? Anyways, here goes. Of course, maybe limited and server-controlled in deathmatch, goes with the previous, already in numerous ports, probably a bad idea, already in nearly every Doom port, what the hell, no real need, maybe polyobjs like Hexen, what the hell using the Boom engine would be plain retarded, see previous commentary, do you mean new monsters or more heavily populated levels, sounds like a Demon, most ports have it, glDoom, what the hell, what the hell part II, maybe if done right, look at Boom or Doom Legacy, maybe like Build, Boom has it, ZDoom has it. As for the bad: yes, all are bad ideas, but there are infinite bad ideas.

I think Doom2000 would be awesome! It should have some of the original Doom monsters, weapons and textures (all redone of course to be awesome).

Patrick Davy

Doom2000 should have Doom monsters, weapons and textures? I dunno there, Patrick, that's pretty controversial.

I think it should come with tons of third party wads included on the CD (even mine when it's done) Another great thing would be an option to put doom.wad and doom2.wad in the same directory and offer an improved engine to play them and also a menu option to load Patch wads from the game.

(Maybe some doom bonus patches on CD Version like 9-episode Doom Wad capability and 99-level Doom 2 Wad capability.)

If they get rid of allowing patch wads, they'll lose fans in my opinion

Jerry Lehr

I think you need to go get The Master Levels and Doom95... it's just what you're looking for.

I'm all for a new version of Doom. I love the feel of Doom, the palette, & the monsters, way more than the ones in Quake. Since the new ports started coming out with mlook & jumping, I came back to Doom from playing Quake & I haven't looked back, except to play against Quake bots. If Doom 2000 came out, I would expect it to have a dedicated server support & excellent network playability. It would have hi-res, hi-color, console--all the features in today' ports like DosDoom, Boom, Legacy, et al. I would expect the code to be lean & to run lightning fast like Doom does on today's computers, not like the bloated games coming out now (e.g. Unreal, Sin) that require 400mhz P2 for acceptable framerates. I would expect it to have the customizability that QuakeC gave to Quake, much like what DDF promises to add to DosDoom. I would expect to see it bundled with a skin editor that would allow you to paint your skins, wrap them around a 3d model, & then have it spit out snapshot sprites to use in deathmatches. I would not expect Doom 2000 to have polygonical monsters--it would be sprite-based. It would not use true3d, which would bog down a slower computer. I would like to see advances made to make Doom run better, faster, & have more capabilities. Too many games today have been made to choke slower computers & punish gamers who have older machines. I would expect Doom 2000 to be designed with fun, & not upgrading, in mind. Doom 2000 would not alienate the gamers who are currently enjoying Doom by having steep hardware requirements.

Captain Mellow

The skin editor idea is a bit far-fetched but otherwise sounds pretty good to me.

Doom Legacy will almost certainly provide the groundwork for any good D2K project. Let's face it - DOSDoom is way to unstable and lacks decent support for even the meager 8 players. Everytime I see something about Doom Legacy, I jump to read it. If a Linux port of Doom Legacy becomes a reality, they add tcp/ip support, merge the GLDoom renderer, and add the new BOOM lines, things, etc into the engine, then they'd have the perfect engine for a D2K project. Create a couple hundred new textures, a dozen new monsters, a new weapon or two (grenade launcher would be nice), throw in 40 or so brand new levels, and you could sell it. And I'd be willing to bet anything it would sell better than the original Doom did.

Andrew Walbert

A Doom Legacy engine would be a good base, if Boom enhancements and glDoom hardware rendering were added in. A dozen new monsters is a bit drastic, and there's no way it would ever sell better than the original Doom/Doom2.

Hmmm.. for one thing, Doom 2000 definetly needs to maintain the current look of the Doom engine. It just won't be the same without it. I've seen screenshots of Doom 64, and my god, that just looks STUPID. What it needs is a lot of enhancements via DOSDOOM/BOOM/LEGACY. I especially think it needs to borrow heavily from legacy's multiplayer code. Definetly needs 16+ player support via a multitude of ways [IPX, TCP/IP, Modem, Serial... or even combine them, ie 2 guys on a modem with a serial player hooked up to one end for a total of three, or 4 people on an IPX network dialing some dude on a modem whos hooked up to that guy via a tcp/ip network or whatever.. ahhh yeah, im not a programmer so ill shut up since that sounds kinda hard. Definetly needs mlook [it doesnt ruin the damn game all you fools... if its so horrible, then why the hell could you shoot up and down without looking in doom originally?], jump [once again proven, doesn ruin the game, as long as you keep the jump height to a reasonable level]. Should incorporate the engine features of boom so it removes all cruddy limitations. Needs a ingame setup screen for keys like virtually every source port has. Throw in CTFDOOM for the hell of it. Improved co-op play, I'm talking have like HUGE levels, ie: youre sitting in a tank with 5 other guys while it approaches a gigantic base or something, someone drives, someone mans the guns, you get there and the other 3 of you blast out of the back of the tank kicking ass and taking names]. Try to retain the original doom atmosphere, invading the UAC facilities and battling the demons of hell etc. I mean uhh, would a green guy in a space suit running around anywhere else make much sense? For some strange reason I think it should be open-source. Now how ID would get people to buy it is beyond me.... maybe open-source the engine, but include a shitload of copyrighted levels in the retail version. But still let the engine play third party levels without need to purchase anything.Which also brings me to, Levels. We all know doom lends itself to most of the best deathmatch levels ever created. Lock the ID guys, Team TNT, and the Gothic crew into one big room for a month and watch as they churn out a couple of thousand good deathmatch levels to be included in the retail release.. This message is pretty big, I'll stop ranting now.

Splat

Wow, that's long. I won't make it any longer.

Bringing back DOOM is not an easy task. I think DOOM has been the most successful 3D game of history. Creating a sequel would be very demanding due to the high standards the game would have to match. First of all, this would not be the first sequel to DOOM. "DOOM 64" was a total re-make of the game for the plataform Nintendo 64 and what I am about to say concerns what fundamental errors this game had and that cannot be repeated.

The first and most obvious lack of the game was that many monsters had gone and none were there to replace them. The Spidermastermind, the Revenant, the Heavy Weapon dude and the Archvile were missing. These monsters are fundamental to the game. Leaving just one behind would be a mistake. DOOM is not DOOM without the Cyberdemon or the Imp. I think old monsters must have a re-design and new ones must appear in the new version.

In second place I think DOOM has been the most "scary" game id has ever done. I believe that not Quake nor DOOM 64 were capable of matching the tension of situations that the original game had. This is maybe the aspect of DOOM that fascinated me most at first. It had suspense. Of course now after playing hundreds of wads you lose the sensation. I believe this is one of the strongest features the game would have to bring back.

Third; the game must be in absolute 3D. DOOM 64 had some really good looking sprite monsters, but compared to the creatures from other games like Turok they looked prehistoric. Also, looking up and down is now essential in these games. We can even see how source ports are adding this feature to DOOM.

Finally I can say that if the re-make of the game boosts the graphics we are seeing in modern games, brings back Bobby Prince's music (with some old tunes too) and has good multiplayer options I'll buy it. I'll upgrade to another computer just to be able to play the sequel to the best game I have ever played.

Carlos Bordeu

I think that a Doom2000 shouldn't be a Doom64-type remake nor do I think it should be in complete 3D. Moving all the monsters over to polygons would completely destroy them -- just look at the the YPOD Quake TC to see what I mean. Doom2000 would not have to be in any way a groundbreaking game or one that used the latest and greatest technology. The fact that it would be Doom would be good enough (as long as it was a quality product on its own merit). People are forgetting that Doom levels can look damn cool. Go look how great Gothic DM 2 looks for an example. If you plugged in the glDoom engine, some levels would be nearly indistinguishable from Quake.

Baisicly, I think that they should ditch the whole old doom 2 (Plutonia TNT) Engine, and start out with a brand new one. I've been thinking about this for a long time and well, i think that they should create the game, not from a first person point of view, but a view like the view from the hit game Diablo. Thats right, Diablo! It has an overview look to it. Users could play it using the mouse (like diablo), left click to shoot right to walk, and the keyboard for the rest. It would also help out alot if they added new monsters and weapons too. 640 x 480 would be another nice feater. I just thought I'd tell you that so that we don't turn out with anoter DOOM Clone (Like Final DOOM)! If i see another doom clone i think im going to puke.

JDS

Is this guy kidding me? The Doomguy walking around in a 3/4 overhead view in blocky crap-looking dungeons? You're joking, right? Please say that was a joke.

Doom was the only game id ever made that held peoples attention for the entire game, and had the feel and environment that correctly reflected the situation. If it could be recreated in an engine like the Quake2 engine, I would definately go out and buy it the first chance I could get. Especially if it had some of the newer features in games today, such as inventory, puzzles, more interaction, etc... I think it's an absolutely wonderful idea.

Perhaps Doom is one of those rare games that can make a million and a half sequels, and still be popular. Just think of how much fun it would be. BUT, if this game were made, you'd have to be careful to keep some of the old monsters and textures, so the feel and mood is kept, weapons, etc... And the new monsters need to keep the Doom template... But other than that, I think it's a wonderful idea. It just may be a little boring to make, and very hard to think of another reason why hell broke loose.

Alan Dennis

This guy brings up the most important point of all. A Doom2000 product would have to keep the same feel and mood of Doom and Doom 2. That is paramount. And as such, it can't add in anything drastic or earth-shattering, be it full 3D or adding 12 new monsters or changing it into Diablo.

I think that a Doom game using a brand new technology would be a great game. We´ve seen the Doom: Your Path To Destruction TC for Quake...It is not as good as the original, but the technology speaks for itself. If ID released Doom using Quake engine then everyone would be playing it.

Now, with the announce of Quake Arena...I don´t know what to say. I think this would be better idea for them to abandone Quake Arena (1 more abandoned project!) and do Doom2000 using their new engine. Of course Doom2000 should have BOTH "old-style" single-player (player vs monsters) and multiplayer. IMO Doom2000 is a great idea.

Dan "Jago" Naoumov

If id released Doom using the Quake engine no one would play it because it would be lame compared to all the other Quake/Unreal-engine games.

I honestly think that Doom is more fun than Quake, the ambience and >versimilitude (illusion of reality) were much better.

Hre's the skinny onwhat would make it cool:

1 - True hires. This means re-doing ALL THE ART in 640x480 (and perhaps again if you want the REALLY hi resolutions to look their BEST!). Talk to Adrian Carmack on this one, he's got all the original scetches! :) So far only GLDoom has come close, and that's thru blurring the lowres VGA art into a rather nice looking hires with jagged edges.

2 - Lighting FX. Color, real-time shadows, light sources that can move around, the whole shebang. Hell with it, just crank that engine up to as hot as it can get!

3 - better multiplayer. Server-client would be nicer, so that the entire game doesn't crash just because someone's idiot mom picked up the phone (this has happened to me many times). 8player+.

4 - Backwards compatibility with Doom & Doom2 wads, with the original levels re-done for improved multiplayer capabilities so we don't go thru so much telefragging at the start of each level :) Also, the more players in co-op, the more monsters, so 10+ guys can't just band together and breeze thru on nightmare.

5. A NEW ADVENTURE! (shoot Duke Nukem on the way?) :D

6. Inventory system would be nice. MOST Marines carry a first-aid kit, a radio, and other gear!

John Friendsmith

If you asked Adrian Carmack to redo all the monsters and textures in higher resolution he would rip out your lungs. As for lighting FX... you're getting ahead of yourself :)

Wow! That would kick ass. A3D sound,640x480 800x600 or higher res. OGL and D3D suport!!! New weapons,enemies,levels (of coruse!) We need a Doom2000!

Marcel Cornec

OGL AND D3D SUPPORT YEAH! And new levels and monsters and stuff too I guess.

I think DOOM2000 would be a great idea if done right. It would need to have GL and voice. That would be really cool. We run all of our games on our own LAN at home so we a lot of bandwidth to spare. It would be cool to bind a key to popup a small video window so you could see and talk to teammates. CTF would be a must also. I think it could be good.

Zak Elliott

If you were on a LAN, why would you need voice or video support anyway?

So iD is contemplating a new doom, doom III if you will. Its seems as if the Doom/Quake community likes the idea and so do I. There are a few reservations though I have.

Firstly I would like to make clear that Doom is the best game I have ever played. Its true I don't play many games (just those that iD makes) but even though I have Quake II and seen unreal and all the other games with fancy graphics and Gl features to make people who have bought 3D cards feel as though they got something for their money. Doom simply had the best gameplay, atmosphere and overall feel. Doom II had absolutely no game engine improvements ofer doom 1 v 1.666, but still was a best seller and a great game.

What about Doom 2000? Well, I guess this is the third part of a trilogy, although the doom plot seemed pretty complete at the end of doom II, I would like to see how the story manages to continue.

I think that iD should use Doom 2000 as a means of showing that they can put great gameplay in their games. Quake's gameplay was just good enough o call it a game, and although Quake II is better, its still the basic shoot the monster get a key type of play.

Instead of developing a new game engine, with high system requirements, use the Quake II engine, and make a more interactive game. You can do a hel of a lot by just modyfying the DLL file and with a few minor adjustments, you can make quite a different game. Basically iD should work on gameplay, niot graphics. If Doom 2000 used the Quake II engine, but just had different monsters, textures, guns etc, I would still buy it and many others would. But wouldn't it be good if you could meet up with another marine and ask him for his gun? Or if former humans could also pick up weapons and use them? Or if you could only carry 4 weapons, so you have to stash them in a safe place and take only the ones you think will be usefull, and coming back for the others when you need them? Personally, every 3D game made is really just wolf3d with better graphics. It would be good if doom 2000 could introduce more in depth game play. Then it would really be a landmark game.

Personally I would like to see all the old monsters and guns, with some of the old textures etc. Putting in completely new monsters, guns etc, is a stupid but tempting thing to do. It just wouldn't be doom without the imps and demons! ;)

I don't mind paying for a game which has a game engine I already have and gameplay elements (guns, monsters, textures), I bought Doom II and many other people did. It was Doom, it had the feel of the original doom, the same scary atmosphere and thw same kick ass monsters.

Doom 2000 should be to doom what Doom II was to Doom I, but probably with a new engine. (hell i'd buy doom 2000 of it used the doom engine!) Also it should be called Doom III, doom 2000 sounds too cheesy. Software support should be in too. (its in Quake II, and if doom 2000 will use the Quake II engine, it should be in doom 2000 as well) I think iD has overestimated the number of people with 3D cards. Everyone I know who has Quake II uses software rendering. If Quake II was 3D card only, 90% of the copies of Quake II that were sold would still be in the store. (my educated estimate)

Dennis Katsonis

If id Software wants to make some sort of groundbreaking RPG-ish game, they should do it with something other than Doom... and if Doom2000 was to Doom2 what Doom2 was to Doom, it would be nearly the same and still wouldn't have TCP/IP :(

I think that DooM 2000 would be great as long as the technology isn't to state of the art. I should be able to use a pent. 166 and get great frame rates. One thing would be good to have it TCP/IP support with client/server base. If they don't make it into a quake and above type of graphics engine they could make the data packets small enough for faster internet play. Would be cool.

And if they use the original story line for it... Might just be worth a purchase.!

Joe Harrison

Does anyone *not* want fast internet play?


All in all, 23 people gave their opinions about Doom2000, breaking down to:

Good idea: 100%
Bad idea: 0%

I guess that was a pretty pointless survey :) Now we just need to work out the tiny details like engine and gameplay and stuff like that. Nitpicking, of course.

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