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Amaster
Artificial Mechanical Android Skilled in Troubleshooting and Efficient Repair


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So, I've been working on my map for cc2 (map 08), and I realized that I've been planning this map as if it were going to be played from a pistol start. This raised a couple of questions:

1. How do we gauge difficulty? The original map09 wsnt very difficult at all. What I'm planning will probably be significantly harder to beat.

2. How should ammo be handled? If the player reaches my map with a huge stockpile of ammunition, gameplay will be greatly affected. Should all maps be created with a tight supply of ammo (just enough to kill all the monsters)?

How was this all handled in the first community chest project?

Old Post 04-27-04 13:19 #
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Torn
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Assmaster said:

2. How should ammo be handled? If the player reaches my map with a huge stockpile of ammunition, gameplay will be greatly affected. Should all maps be created with a tight supply of ammo (just enough to kill all the monsters)?

How was this all handled in the first community chest project?



Put in the ammo enough to kill all the monster + a few misses. In cc1 we just put in the amount of ammo we wanted.

Old Post 04-27-04 15:56 #
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DooMBoy
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I had been wondering about this myself. My map, as I've stated before, is gonna be a tough ride, and ammo will be tight...but there will be enough for a few misses :P

Old Post 04-27-04 16:45 #
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boris
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I think every map should be able to be finished with pistol only start. But Weapons/Ammo from previousl maps could really destroy a map, which can be a bigger problem in the lower levels. Imagine you did design your map with the player not having a BFG, but he got it in the level before...

Maybe there should have been at least rules for when weapons are allowed to appear, but I guess it's too late for that. Playtesting the whole megawad could help a lot too, at least if the map designers agree to make changes to their levels to make it all more balanced.

Old Post 04-27-04 18:33 #
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The Flange Peddler
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Generally I thought the fluctuation of ammo/health balance to be one of the biggest problems with CC1. Some of the maps seemed way to tight to me. I guess there's enough people involved in the project to playtest everything enough, but then if people playtest maps too much in various different stages of development, they may come to find the maps a lot easier than the average player not involved in the project, playing through for the first time. I have a hunch this may have happened a bit with CC1.

That said I think all you can do is make it possible from a pistol start. If the ammo balance is ok, not too tight but not stupidly over the top (easier said than done), then people shouldn't be able to stockpile too much. I would tend to get the ammo balance to a reasonable tight-ish level, then maybe add a tiny bit more to help people out the first time through. I'm doing map07, and am not planning on making it too hard (although I always think that and end up with 100s of monsters), although there will be the typical larger tag 666/667 style encounter.

Edit: And I agree with Boris. Having a time of playtesting the entire megawad all the way through is a really good idea, to see how the levels flow together - maybe even swap a few about if it doesn't feel quite right. And having weapon limits would be another good idea. For your information I have no intention of including the BFG :P

Old Post 04-27-04 18:34 #
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The Ultimate DooMer
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The rules say that the map must be do-able from a pistol start, but there's no restrictions on difficulty.

The best thing to do IMO is put enough ammo down to kill all the monsters, but not too much more than that. A chainsaw and/or berserk should also go down to make sure the player always has a chance, even if he runs out (build this into the balance if you want to, but don't take into account the fact that you can chainsaw/punch wide monsters in the newest ZDoom - doing this will screw up everyone playing with other Boom ports).

This would make the demos challenging to record, but also keeps the ammo you carry from getting too high as you go through the megawad (thus preserving the challenge coming from having to watch the ammo and not waste it). I think this was achieved very well in CC1, despite it's compilation-based nature.

As for BFG's - in CC1 I think it first appeared in a map 14 secret, so I'd suggest keeping it out of the first section. I'll be using it in map 15 (as it's needed...) but I would prefer it to appear before then if possible, so anyone entering the city from map 14 won't feel a huge desire to rush to the building containing it first.

Last edited by The Ultimate DooMer on 04-27-04 at 23:13

Old Post 04-27-04 23:06 #
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Lutrov71
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This wad would be great if they SSG first appeared in map 15, like Sycthe.

Old Post 04-30-04 07:47 #
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Torn
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Lutrov71 said:
This wad would be great if they SSG first appeared in map 15, like Sycthe.


First, it is Scythe. And second: no, because I am using SSG in my map.

Old Post 04-30-04 15:03 #
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DooMBoy
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Lutrov71 said:
This wad would be great if the SSG first appeared in map 15, like Sycthe.

Uh, I'm not sure I like that idea. For one thing, some early maps (like mine :P) are going to be harder than some other early maps, such as map05 for example. I'd rather get the SSG on say, map04 or map05, rather than having to go halfway through the damn game to get it, wouldn't you?

Old Post 04-30-04 19:37 #
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Lutrov71
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No, I'm not saying we should do this, but it would be a pretty memorable wad if it was a community wad like this.

Old Post 05-01-04 01:00 #
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Amaster
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Hmm, an ssg in the first few maps could actually muck things up a bit for me. Guess I'll just have to account for it.

Old Post 05-01-04 01:37 #
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Use3D
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We were told to make all the maps beatable from a pistol start in the first cc. I knew this would have gameplay issues on a megawad but what else can be done?

Old Post 05-01-04 04:17 #
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Cyb


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I'm glad I don't have to worry about this :P

Old Post 05-01-04 04:37 #
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Sphagne
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May I suggest that starting a level by pistol only should have only enough ammo to kill all the monsters if we find all the secrets, and normally we have to do a lot of dodges and maybe force the monsters to fight each other if we start the levels with pistols, but if we start the levels after the last one, the current level should keep the total amount of our fire arms about the same as when we start the level, i.e. when we finish the level, we should have about the same amount of ammo as we start the level. Maybe a little bit more, as the levels start to grow harder.

Or maybe the designer of the previous level could tell that I am giving the players a lot of ammo, so the next level should dampen it a bit, or vice versa.

Old Post 05-01-04 04:49 #
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Lutrov71
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Sphagne said:
Or maybe the designer of the previous level could tell that I am giving the players a lot of ammo, so the next level should dampen it a bit

But then if you start THAT level from scratch, it will be too hard to beat.
I say we just put enough ammo to kill all the monsters. That's all.

Old Post 05-01-04 06:24 #
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The Ultimate DooMer
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Sphagne said:
May I suggest that starting a level by pistol only should have only enough ammo to kill all the monsters if we find all the secrets


I disagree there - making the player find all the secrets in order to avoid running out is a bit unfair (as I found out when testing a P2 map recently), as although all the narrower monsters can be chainsawed or berserked to death, the wider ones can't (unless you use the newest ZDoom, but IMO that's cheating in a non-ZDoom wad). Secrets should help the player a bit, but not too much, to ensure there isn't too much ammo (or health and armour) for the players that do find them all.

Luckily I don't have this problem though, as my secrets have another purpose...

Old Post 05-01-04 15:50 #
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Amaster
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I'm also pretty opposed to making the player find secrets (since I suck at finding them myself) so I think I'll just continue on with making the ammo supply tight.

Old Post 05-01-04 17:21 #
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Scuba Steve


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Ammo Balance?

Old Post 05-01-04 18:19 #
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Foofoo
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ahh... shouldn't ALL levels ever made for doom be made to start with a pistol start? That was always a sort of golden rule with wad making i thought.

Plus a level doesn't have to have very limited ammo to be tough. I've played wads were I had just about all the ammo there is to carry and i still get my ass whooped.

Old Post 05-29-04 07:23 #
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