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esselfortium
Cumulonimbus Antagonistic Posting

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For custom monsters you could do something like what Scythe 2 had, where it replaces (afaik) the SS Nazi, Commander Keen, and the Icon of Sin to make the Afrit and the Evil Marine. Though it could then be difficult to keep people from overusing those two monsters...

Or you could do it KDiKDiZD-style and replace all but the most basic of monsters (in KDiKDiZD's case, everything was replaced except the imp, demon, spectre, zombie/sergeant/chaingunner, lost soul, and cacodemon). On the one hand this could make it very unique, but on the other hand the lack of certain standard Doom1/Doom2 monsters would be almost guaranteed to upset some people.

...but of course if this was for Eternity Engine you could use EDF to add new monsters without needing to replace existing ones, without taking the project into full-on ZDoom country.

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04-30-08 07:17 #

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Kid Airbag
Not really a kid. Not really an airbag. WHAT THE HELL IS IT?!? Who's asking? Are you French? An airbag is a safety device in a car that inflates during a collision and blocks you from smashing your head into the dashboard or steering wheel!

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I don't see why the guidelines should change, I don't think anyone is getting really bored with megawads that don't involve any super fancy source port tricks as long as the levels are aesthetically pleasing and fun to play. At least, I'm not.

04-30-08 19:43 #

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Aleaver
Can't spll

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Kid Airbag said:
I don't see why the guidelines should change, I don't think anyone is getting really bored with megawads that don't involve any super fancy source port tricks as long as the levels are aesthetically pleasing and fun to play. At least, I'm not.

Agreed 110% there..Well said Kid Airbag.

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04-30-08 20:43 #

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lupinx-Kassman
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esselfortium said:

...but of course if this was for Eternity Engine you could use EDF to add new monsters without needing to replace existing ones, without taking the project into full-on ZDoom country.

An eternity community project would definitely be interesting. I recall Printz tried to start something like this himself (with an over-ambitious 60 slots unfortunately, very few which were taken). However, if Community Chest 4 were to be an eternity project, perhaps more people would be brought toward this under-rated engine.

Of course, if many do not like the idea, then the boom-compatible route is always the "safe" choice. :/

Last edited by lupinx-Kassman on 04-30-08 at 22:21

04-30-08 22:14 #

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esselfortium
Cumulonimbus Antagonistic Posting

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lupinx-Kassman said:

An eternity community project would definitely be interesting. I recall Printz tried to start something like this himself (with an over-ambitious 60 slots unfortunately, very few which were taken). However, if Community Chest 4 were to be an eternity project, perhaps more people would be brought toward this under-rated engine.

Of course, if many do not like the idea, then the boom-compatible route is always the "safe" choice. :/

Indeed. It should also be noted that all Boom features and tricks (voodoo dolls on conveyor belts, etc.) are fully functional in Eternity and there would be no compatibility issues if some maps were made for Boom itself.

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04-30-08 23:40 #

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Dr. Zin
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Not to be a jerk, but I think making CC4 an Eternity project would be a poor decision. Remember, the first incarnation of CC3 (way back in 2005) was going to be a ZDoom project, and that went over like a lead balloon. I hardly think an Eternity engine project would fare better.

The point of the CC series has been to have a project accessible to mappers at all levels of the community. Limiting the submissions to one source port doesn't really fit the spirity of the project.

That said, if someone were to replace the Nazi (via Dehacked) with another quality enemy ala Scythe 2 it could be pretty cool.

Last edited by Dr. Zin on 05-02-08 at 21:42

05-02-08 21:36 #

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Cadman
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As I've been reading throughout this forum it has become apparent (to me at least) that the direction this project is going seems very scattered. There are alot of great ideas here, some good observations, but remember, we don't want this project to become dead in the water before it even gets started. To me, the original idea of the Community Chest Project(s) was to be able to get as many people involved as possible. People that have never gotten the chance to be a part of a team for one reason or another. Your past history in level design, graphics, scripting, etc., really didn't matter. If you had the desire was all that mattered. We made the rules very basic and simple and that opened the door for many to participate. The original Community Chest Project taught me alot of things. My input is this - I use the K.I.S.S. principle..."Keep It Simple Stupid." I'm not the brightest bulb around and I don't have the technical savvy that alot of you have, that's why I started the Community Chest Project those years ago. There are many other projects on the burner out there that require all that technical know how and more experienced personnel. I've seen projects come and go just like vaporware, the Community Chest series has been one of the few projects that have had great success because of it's simplicity.

Take it for what it's worth but my input is to keep it simple as possible that way it won't drag out and people won't lose interest and it gets completed in good time. I say just keep it "Boom" compatible and design accordingly...again, it's just my opinion.

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05-03-08 20:10 #

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esselfortium
Cumulonimbus Antagonistic Posting

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Dr. Zin said:
Not to be a jerk, but I think making CC4 an Eternity project would be a poor decision. Remember, the first incarnation of CC3 (way back in 2005) was going to be a ZDoom project, and that went over like a lead balloon. I hardly think an Eternity engine project would fare better.

The point of the CC series has been to have a project accessible to mappers at all levels of the community. Limiting the submissions to one source port doesn't really fit the spirity of the project.

That said, if someone were to replace the Nazi (via Dehacked) with another quality enemy ala Scythe 2 it could be pretty cool.

Eternity is fully Boom-compatible, though. There would be absolutely zero problem with maps being included that only use standard Boom features :P

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05-03-08 20:14 #

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Death-Destiny
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Cadman said:
To me, the original idea of the Community Chest Project(s) was to be able to get as many people involved as possible. People that have never gotten the chance to be a part of a team for one reason or another. Your past history in level design, graphics, scripting, etc., really didn't matter. If you had the desire was all that mattered.

I agree with this completely. I think community projects are the perfect way to get newer mappers involved in a major project. This will get them experience both from the input on their work and in working with a team.

As for input, I'd say just make this Boom-compatible. Zdoom features seem to me to just be novelties and aren't necessary for a quality project. All my favorite maps are Boom-style if not strictly vanilla compatible.

Also, at this point, it's been quite a while since the initial release of CC3. Are we going to get started with this or what? We should at least lay down the ground rules and open a sign-up list for CC4. While a lot of us (myself included) still have other things to do, those who are free can at least get a head-start on the project while they wait for everyone else to join them. =S

05-03-08 20:31 #

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Kaiser
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More people = less chance that CC4 will even get finished.

Anyways, if this isn't going to be aimed for Zdoom, I'll join.

05-03-08 21:40 #

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Searcher
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Let's find out if the last leadership team has any interest in doing this one as well and take it from there. Perhaps they will wade in on the topic or start a new thread for it.

I'd even do a map for this one. Got one about 80% complete right now.

I'd say the maps should run in boom or it has to be fixed so it will run with boom.

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05-04-08 00:57 #

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The Green Herring
Community Chest 4 Leader

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Searcher said:
Let's find out if the last leadership team has any interest in doing this one as well and take it from there. Perhaps they will wade in on the topic or start a new thread for it.

As the man responsible for the brunt of CC3's compilation, and de facto leader during that time, I would be interested in leading and contributing to CC4. I, too, believe this should be Boom-compatible, as apart from being limit-removing, you can do a lot more things with it than in vanilla Doom without sacrificing either 1) the classic Doom feel, 2) source port compatibility, or 3) ease of mapping.

For the sake of continuity, each map could have a similar start and exit (I can come up with them,) and each ten-level set could have a specific theme. For instance, MAP01-10 could be military/techbase, MAP11-20 could be gothic, and MAP21-30 could be Hell. MAP31-32, being secret levels, can use any theme you want. If we do that, and anybody's making a texture resource WAD for this, it should have a full set of textures for each of the themes, whichever ones we determine. Also, I'm not sure we should have maps as large as CC3 MAP12/20 in this one, especially near the beginning or middle of the WAD.

As for new monsters, if someone could replace the SS Nazi with a monster whose function is not redundant, via DeHackEd, that could be nice.

Beta-testing should be mandatory, and I agree with assembling a beta-testing team for the project.

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05-04-08 01:51 #

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Aleaver
Can't spll

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The Green Herring said:
As the man responsible for the brunt of CC3's compilation, and de facto leader during that time, I would be interested in leading and contributing to CC4.

You would be one of the --(if not the best)-- choice for the job. You went far beyond anything I asked for in CC 3 and will do just fine as leader of CC 4!

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05-04-08 02:28 #

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Dr. Zin
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esselfortium said:

Eternity is fully Boom-compatible, though. There would be absolutely zero problem with maps being included that only use standard Boom features :P

If we are only using Boom-Compat, where is the Eternity component?

Kaiser said:
More people = less chance that CC4 will even get finished.

Not necessarily. Just have a sign up thread with slots. To start everyone can only take one slot. Then you have checkpoints where people are required to post a screenshot or whatever to show they are actually making progress. If they are a no-show then they lose the slot. Meanwhile you encourage people to make more that one map for the project, and use these other maps to fill the slots left by people who flaked out.

It is not a perfect system, but it works.

The Green Herring said:
As the man responsible for the brunt of CC3's compilation, and de facto leader during that time, I would be interested in leading and contributing to CC4. I, too, believe this should be Boom-compatible, as apart from being limit-removing, you can do a lot more things with it than in vanilla Doom without sacrificing either 1) the classic Doom feel, 2) source port compatibility, or 3) ease of mapping.

For the sake of continuity, each map could have a similar start and exit (I can come up with them,) and each ten-level set could have a specific theme. For instance, MAP01-10 could be military/techbase, MAP11-20 could be gothic, and MAP21-30 could be Hell. MAP31-32, being secret levels, can use any theme you want. If we do that, and anybody's making a texture resource WAD for this, it should have a full set of textures for each of the themes, whichever ones we determine. Also, I'm not sure we should have maps as large as CC3 MAP12/20 in this one, especially near the beginning or middle of the WAD.

As for new monsters, if someone could replace the SS Nazi with a monster whose function is not redundant, via DeHackEd, that could be nice.

Beta-testing should be mandatory, and I agree with assembling a beta-testing team for the project.

First of all, props again for pulling CC3 together. I will give a vote of confidence for your leadership of CC4. That being said, I do have some suggestions of my own that I think could take CC4 to the next level.

First, while similar starts and exits are cool I don't think it would be the best idea for a CC project. I think it would scare people away by taking away some creative control of their map. I also think the logistics of it might get too complex. Plus, if themes are assigned to slots you already have greater continuity than the previous projects.

Also, I think using Military/Tech, Gothic, and Hell as themes may also be a bit to limiting. Rather, have themes such as Earthlike, Otherworldly, and Extradimensional. You still will have continuity in the maps, but there can be more diverse styles in each episode. Of course, this may also be partly my prejudice against the Tech/Infested/Hell progression of most megawads.

I do think that the theme idea needs a lot of work, and should be handled with discretion. Done improperly the mappers lose creative control, and there is no quicker way to get shitty maps than to do that.

I do totally agree with you on the map length thing, and I know I was one of the chief offenders in that category. I don't think it is right to put an absolute maximum on size (besides the 32000ish sidedef limit), rather there should be a strong suggestion on play length. Maps should have a par time between 5 and 30 minutes. The big maps really break up the flow of the set and get tedious.

A few months back we had a conversation where it was suggested that there be all new music for the project. I believe it was determined that an open competition on the DW forums for midi sequencers would be a good way to go about this. I still think this is a good idea. I doubt we will be able to get 32 unique tunes, but there can be repeats like in the IWADs. Perhaps have each mapper choose their favorite tune for their contribution?

Finally, I have been slowly throwing together some texture and flat resources for the project, and could accelerate my efforts to create a true resource wad for mappers when the slots are opened. I have not been segregating by theme however (personally I think what textures make up a theme should be at mapper's discretion).

Oh, eventually someone needs to pester the powers that be to change this to the "Community Chest 4" forum.

05-04-08 02:39 #

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Aleaver
Can't spll

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Dr. Zin said:

Oh, eventually someone needs to pester the powers that be to change this to the "Community Chest 4" forum.

I would just call it the "Community Chest" fourm. Or maybe the Community Chest Project's forum. other than CC 3 or CC 4 and so on and so forth. If not,then it would require a constant re-nameing of this forum everytime a new CC is started. (that is if there is going to be another one of these after CC4, which you never know there could be) So might aswell change it once and have it be the only time it needs to be changed and have this minor detail taken care of. But thats just my 2 cents on that idea.

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05-04-08 02:48 #

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Death-Destiny
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I agree more on less on all counts with Dr. Zin. A few inputs I could add are: Firstly, I don't think there necessarily needs to be a limit on the length of the maps. "For We are Many" was my favorite CC3 map and it would be sad to prevent our community from crafting things like that. =( I agree maps like "Black Rain" shouldn't be in the middle of the WAD. When I first played CC3 and observed that it had 800+ enemies, I just skipped it and came back to it before playing map29. I think that if the enemy count goes over 400+, it would be sufficient simply to put the maps at the end after the player has seen all the other levels.

Also, I agree with T.G.H. about the entry/exit teleports. It would probably work well like in Plutonia since it would not only give continuity, but be perfectly clear where the exit is. I don't think theming the episodes is a good idea as it restricts creativity quite a bit. One of my favorite things about CC projects is the mish-mash of themes letting me see everyone's method of creative expression. =)

I also think Dr. Zin is dead-on about the sign-up and progress checkpoint idea and still think it'd be good to get this moving seeing as how things like this take time.

05-04-08 03:08 #

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esselfortium
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Dr. Zin said:
If we are only using Boom-Compat, where is the Eternity component?

Eternity is to Boom as Boom is to limit-removing. It's compatible with all the things Boom can do, and mapping for it works in the same way (Doom format, etc.) but with more options. Eternity has lots of nice features like EDF (for custom monsters and decorations), portals, 3dmidtex, attached surfaces, extradata, large flats, and polyobjects, while still allowing for everything that can be done in Boom to be done in the exact same way. Voodoo dolls on conveyor belts, etc.

I don't think there'd be any problem with doing this for Boom, of course, but if custom monsters are being considered then it'd allow for a lot more options in that department, with the added bonus of all the other things. That's really the main reason I suggested it. And again, it would be 100% perfectly fine for standard Boom maps to be included. I really don't think they'd stick out like a sore thumb like they easily could if they were Boom maps in a ZDoom project.

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05-04-08 03:10 #

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The Green Herring
Community Chest 4 Leader

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Dr. Zin said:
First, while similar starts and exits are cool I don't think it would be the best idea for a CC project. I think it would scare people away by taking away some creative control of their map. I also think the logistics of it might get too complex. Plus, if themes are assigned to slots you already have greater continuity than the previous projects.

Also, I think using Military/Tech, Gothic, and Hell as themes may also be a bit to limiting. Rather, have themes such as Earthlike, Otherworldly, and Extradimensional. You still will have continuity in the maps, but there can be more diverse styles in each episode. Of course, this may also be partly my prejudice against the Tech/Infested/Hell progression of most megawads.

I do think that the theme idea needs a lot of work, and should be handled with discretion. Done improperly the mappers lose creative control, and there is no quicker way to get shitty maps than to do that.

All good points. Now that I think of it, assigning themes to slots outright sounds pretty restrictive. Rather, maybe suggest a theme for them, if we do that at all. Earthlike, Otherworldly and Extradimensional could work as suggested themes.

As I mentioned earlier, sky transfers should be prohibited, for the sake of continuity, and because they don't work in Boom anyway. The resource WAD for this project should include new skies, of course, if we are to do that.

As for similar starts/exits, if we use those, they don't have to be so ultra-intricate that they limit creativity. They could simply be unique-looking teleporters, as with the two-sector teleporters that begin and end every level in The Plutonia Experiment. That way, it'd be obvious where the starts/exits are, but there's less of a risk of restricting creativity. (I could also place them during compilation.)

Dr. Zin said:
I do totally agree with you on the map length thing, and I know I was one of the chief offenders in that category. I don't think it is right to put an absolute maximum on size (besides the 32000ish sidedef limit), rather there should be a strong suggestion on play length. Maps should have a par time between 5 and 30 minutes. The big maps really break up the flow of the set and get tedious.

A suggested par time like that would work fine. A huge map could be fine if it's on MAP30; as the last level, it should be as climactic as possible.

Dr. Zin said:
A few months back we had a conversation where it was suggested that there be all new music for the project. I believe it was determined that an open competition on the DW forums for midi sequencers would be a good way to go about this. I still think this is a good idea. I doubt we will be able to get 32 unique tunes, but there can be repeats like in the IWADs. Perhaps have each mapper choose their favorite tune for their contribution?

That can work. The repeats thing would work if we didn't get a full set of unique tracks. Wonder who the judges should be...

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05-04-08 03:32 #

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Dr. Zin
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The Green Herring said:
As for similar starts/exits, if we use those, they don't have to be so ultra-intricate that they limit creativity. They could simply be unique-looking teleporters, as with the two-sector teleporters that begin and end every level in The Plutonia Experiment. That way, it'd be obvious where the starts/exits are, but there's less of a risk of restricting creativity. (I could also place them during compilation.)

Actually, that does sound cool. My impression was that there were going to be entire starting and ending rooms assigned for each slot, so a mapper would be SOL if those rooms didn't fit well into their map. Something simple like a teleporter would work.

I will continue work on a resource wad, though I am enrolled in a condensed class right now and will likely not have a preliminary wad until June. I think having a resource set for mappers would also help with continuity; as mappers wouldn't be as compelled to bring in their own resources (after all, the DOOM2 textures are a bit tired).

05-04-08 05:52 #

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esselfortium
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@Dr. Zin: If you're not doing so already, I would recommend being very careful about your texture naming. If you're including variants of Doom2.wad textures, those variants should be named similarly so that they'll be found in the same place when viewed alphabetically in a map editor. It takes a bit more time to get everything set up that way, but once it's done it'll be much easier for mappers to work with, as they won't have to do as much digging around trying to remember what that one metal2 rearrangement was called.

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05-04-08 06:34 #

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Dr. Zin
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Don't worry, I try to keep the texture names consistant.

One problem I am having is finding skies. If anyone has a suggestion post it here. All I have right now is a starry sky I modded, if everyone else likes it:

http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/391/starskyupgradebb6.th.png

05-04-08 16:52 #

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RjY
anARCHy

Posts: 860
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Firstly I'm not sure this all isn't a bit soon, although I guess a projected mid to end of 2009 release is still a fair way off. (For reference CC was released mid 2003, CC2 end of 2004, and CC3 end of 2007, all having been about a year in development.)

esselfortium said:
Eternity is to Boom as Boom is to limit-removing.

I don't agree with this at all. Doom-plus maps[1] can be played in almost all of the current crop of engines. Boom features are similarly widely supported. All of CC1/2/3 can be played in pretty much any engine you like. However, an Eternity map needs Eternity. I know you are a proponent of Eternity but I don't think hijacking the next CC is the way to go about popularising it.

[1] I don't like the term "limit-removing map" - maps don't remove limits, they break them ;)

Dr. Zin said:
One problem I am having is finding skies. If anyone has a suggestion post it here. All I have right now is a starry sky I modded, if everyone else likes it:

That sky is very distinctive and at least in my mind has a strong association with your maps. I think it'd look weird on anyone else's :)

05-04-08 21:13 #

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Lord_Z
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I like the star sky, but I think the pink looks a bit out of place closer up (maybe it's just the size of the picture). However, I rather like the space theme and I think that a couple more space type skies would be a good addition, something like Evilution had.

05-04-08 21:47 #

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Butts
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Posts: 1485
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please dont make this a 32768 seg limit...
here are some ideas

anyways, the themes should not be in sets of 10, i think a theme should only be like sets of maybe 3 maps, but have a strong sense of continuity in it, like maps 1-3 would be tech base or military base, but in each progressing map it gets more damage, then in map 4 hell starts infesting, then in map 5 the base is heavily infested and damaged, and dark, broken stuff, flickering lights, then the next map is like, you escape the base through the sewers, make it to the outside and next map could be fight in canyons and such, get to the spaceship, take off, the spaceship gets overrun, you end up crashing on earth or some shit and are in cities and stuff.... i dont know just some ideas, but i think otherworldly theme is good idea too. maybe another theme would be on some sort of battleship/aircraft carrier, maybe some jungle levels, desert, egypt, ancient ruins, shroom trip levels, asian theme, hell temple, hell badlands, hell caves, hellish jungle (firey plants, lava river, volcano, dead trees emitting embers from the branches, corpses littered in trees on ground, vines of intestines), factory themes, impossibilities(surrealistic) and of course there are themes based on texture usage, like silver, metal, brown, wood, marble, etc.

05-04-08 22:29 #

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Butts, I would be a big fan of playing something like that but as a mapper for a community project, that kind of thing is far too limiting. If there is a theme at all, it should be very broad and in large groups, like 10 maps. Although I think what might work best is to not have anyone take a specific slot (except for 15 and 30) and then arrange all the maps roughly by difficulty/size after they've all come in.

05-05-08 01:03 #

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Death-Destiny
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I agree that the maps should be arranged after all are complete based on difficulty.

I don't see why CC4 has to have a theme. Isn't the point of a community project to get everyone involved and to let them make whatever type of maps they want? That's always what I liked about the other CCs. I hope we don't lose the spirit of the CC for the sake of "improving the quality." =(

Last edited by Death-Destiny on 05-05-08 at 04:51

05-05-08 01:53 #

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Cadman
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Posts: 431
Registered: 07-02

For me I kinda figured these discussions would go this way. I've been reading the latest posts here and it is starting to get complex. For me that's what causes the interest to wain...I will continue with the KISS priciple I stated in an earlier post. The original Community Chest project was very simple and straightforward, just some very basic rules, nothing more. That's why it was completed in a very reasonable time...oh well. I don't have a copyright on this franchise and I don't plan too, it's always been about the community, the Doom Community. I hope you guys have a great project, make it good!

BTW, I've already completed 10 maps for the CC deathmatch project, it's looking good!

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Cadman - Member TeamTNT
Doom2 GrandMaster (DHT5 Standards)
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05-05-08 02:22 #

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The Green Herring
Community Chest 4 Leader

Posts: 1141
Registered: 05-07

All things considered, the whole theming thing is merely a suggestion, and nothing more. There's always the possibility that no theming or continuity will be attempted at all, and things in CC4 will be as simple as the last three times. The latter seems more likely, now that I think about it... It does kind of sound like we're getting a little too deep into this.

Having people not map in specific slots (apart from MAP15/30/31/32,) and then arranging them all into specific slots during compilation based on difficulty sounds interesting. It may take some time, though.

If we are to have this be fully Boom-compatible, we must adhere to the 32768 SEGS limit. Why call a map "Boom-compatible" if it can't be played in Boom at all?

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05-05-08 03:08 #

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esselfortium
Cumulonimbus Antagonistic Posting

Posts: 6021
Registered: 01-02

As far as the 32768 segs limit goes, "Boom compatible, requires a strong limit-removing port" is perfectly fine. Deus Vult 2 is this way, as are other releases. I'm sure someone else could come up with a full list of ports that support it, but I know off-hand that PrBoom-Plus, Eternity, and ZDoom/GZDoom do.

I also cast my vote against the "no MBF sky transfers" rule. I don't know of any current Boom-compatible ports that don't support this. If the only reason for not allowing it is the fact that it doesn't work in the old Boom EXE that seems to be only used for "is this truly Boom-compatible?" benchmarking, that seems kind of silly to me. PrBoom-compatible is the new Boom-compatible, as far as I'm concerned.

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Last edited by esselfortium on 05-05-08 at 09:07

05-05-08 09:01 #

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