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andrewj
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esselfortium said:
I also cast my vote against the "no MBF sky transfers" rule. I don't know of any current Boom-compatible ports that don't support this.

EDGE doesn't support it (linetypes 271 and 272).

I think there is a more important reason to disallow it: continuity. If you are planning on having three major themes (a great idea imo), each would have it's own distinctive sky, and some level in the middle of the wad with it's own sky is going to break that continuity.

Old Post 05-05-08 09:45 #
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RjY
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esselfortium said:
As far as the 32768 segs limit goes, "Boom compatible, requires a strong limit-removing port" is perfectly fine. Deus Vult 2 is this way, as are other releases. I'm sure someone else could come up with a full list of ports that support it, but I know off-hand that PrBoom-Plus, Eternity, and ZDoom/GZDoom do.
Yes I'm sure in the past one of the stated aims of the CCs has been for mappers to show off their skills so going totally overboard with pointless fiddly detailing should be allowed. (That doesn't mean the map has to play like sour milk, though. I agree entirely with Zin's point about keeping the par times sane.)

esselfortium said:
I also cast my vote against the "no MBF sky transfers" rule. I don't know of any current Boom-compatible ports that don't support this. If the only reason for not allowing it is the fact that it doesn't work in the old Boom EXE that seems to be only used for "is this truly Boom-compatible?" benchmarking, that seems kind of silly to me. PrBoom-compatible is the new Boom-compatible, as far as I'm concerned.
PrBoom-plus seems to treat complevels far more pervasively than just options for demo compatibility. I tried to convince entryway not to arbitrarily disable sky transfers in pre-MBF complevels but he wouldn't listen ;(

Ajapted has a good point about continuity, though.

Old Post 05-05-08 09:52 #
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Use3D
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Butts said:
please dont make this a 32768 seg limit...




Of couse a good level doesn't need to come close to the seg limit honestly. Also I'm lost as to why some people want to over-complicate the matter. The last 3 ccs were a success, why change anything? It's not broke, don't fix it.

Old Post 05-05-08 17:23 #
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Butts
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screw the theme thing altogether, how about any mapper can make whatever the hell they want, but starts and exits are that plutonia styled teleporter? transfer skies should be allowed i think. i think having the whole thing done then compiling based on difficulty is a good idea. and, use3d, of course a good level doesnt need to come close to the seg limit. there is nothing wrong with it having even 1/8 of the limit, its just that when i map i tend to like things in epic proportions, and it would make things a little easier for me to keep a consistently well detailed map large, without some bland spots or some detailed spots. its not just me that has a problem with the segs limit, didnt someone from cc3 have to remove stuff in order not to break it?

Old Post 05-06-08 05:27 #
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Cadman
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Use3D said:


Of couse a good level doesn't need to come close to the seg limit honestly. Also I'm lost as to why some people want to over-complicate the matter. The last 3 ccs were a success, why change anything? It's not broke, don't fix it.




I'm in agreement here...it's just getting a little too complex for me...:) Let the Leader of the team set the rules and guidelines for the project and then get the thing started. Otherwise the interest begins to "wisp away" just like vaporware. Of course it's always good to have input during the project, to tweak it here and there, just don't let it get out of hand. Use3D taught me alot during the original project and it's helped me quite a bit, thanks Use3D! Right now though I need to get back to work on my CC Deathmatch project! I've just started with my eleventh map! It's getting there...:) I'm also working on a single player level as well and I promise you it will be nice...I do it for the Community man! I also happen to love the game...heh!

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Old Post 05-07-08 02:39 #
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esselfortium
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Butts said:
its not just me that has a problem with the segs limit, didnt someone from cc3 have to remove stuff in order not to break it?

Yeah, it was RottKing's map. There was an ending arena, which I did some work on, that had to get cut to make it fit under 32768 segs. Removing that restriction isn't necessarily going to overcomplicate anything, it'll just allow for people who want to make large-scale and/or heavily-detailed maps to do so without having to cut things down to avoid hitting limits...

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Last edited by esselfortium on 05-07-08 at 03:11

Old Post 05-07-08 03:01 #
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Death-Destiny
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Cadman said:
I'm in agreement here...it's just getting a little too complex for me...:) Let the Leader of the team set the rules and guidelines for the project and then get the thing started. Otherwise the interest begins to "wisp away" just like vaporware.


That sounds like a plan to me. So who did we decide the leaders are going to be for this run of the CC Project? If we haven't decided, we need to choose some people so we can get this thing going before the wisping away of interest with respect to vaporware occurs.

Old Post 05-07-08 03:14 #
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The Green Herring
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Death-Destiny said:
That sounds like a plan to me. So who did we decide the leaders are going to be for this run of the CC Project? If we haven't decided, we need to choose some people so we can get this thing going before the wisping away of interest with respect to vaporware occurs.
As I said before, I'm interested in leading CC4. If nobody else wants to lead the project, I will. If anyone wants to assist me in this regard, now's the time to speak up. Otherwise, I'll write up the rules/guidelines and get things started this week.

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Old Post 05-07-08 03:31 #
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Death-Destiny
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The Green Herring said:
As I said before, I'm interested in leading CC4. If nobody else wants to lead the project, I will. If anyone wants to assist me in this regard, now's the time to speak up. Otherwise, I'll write up the rules/guidelines and get things started this week.


Actually, I enjoy leading leading projects, so I'd be interested in co-leading CC4 with you, T.G.H. I'm pretty talented with organization-type things, so I can keep tabs on the project's progress, making sure everything that needs doing is assigned to someone and post status lists and whatnot. I liked the idea of a multi-captain team from the last CC, so I'll help lead if that's acceptable to you, T.G.H. Even so, I have nothing to add to the guidelines, so you can go ahead and get the signup started if no one else volunteers to lead with us.

Old Post 05-07-08 04:17 #
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Butts
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You guys gonna start a new thread for this?

anyways, death destiny and the green herring sounds like good leaders to me.

i still think restricting the number of segs to 32678 is not a good idea, i see no reason to have that restriction, and exactly how does it complicate things?


well, id like to contribute to this community chest. sign me up!

Old Post 05-07-08 05:19 #
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Kid Airbag
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Wait, when you say "segs," what exactly are you referring to? Sidedefs? I know WadAuthor crashes when you reach a certain amount of sidedefs, anyway.

Old Post 05-07-08 07:26 #
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Creaphis
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A sidedef is split up into several segs if it's part of the border of more than one subsector. You can't have more than 32678 segs in maps for the original engine, but some ports have doubled that limit. You can see exactly how many segs your map is currently at by opening your wad in a lump editor and seeing how many entries are in the map's "segs" lump. If you don't want to check this all the time, you can assume that you'll have about 10% more segs than sidedefs. (This is the case when I map anyway.)

Old Post 05-07-08 08:11 #
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The Green Herring
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Death-Destiny said:
Actually, I enjoy leading leading projects, so I'd be interested in co-leading CC4 with you, T.G.H. I'm pretty talented with organization-type things, so I can keep tabs on the project's progress, making sure everything that needs doing is assigned to someone and post status lists and whatnot. I liked the idea of a multi-captain team from the last CC, so I'll help lead if that's acceptable to you, T.G.H. Even so, I have nothing to add to the guidelines, so you can go ahead and get the signup started if no one else volunteers to lead with us.
I could take you on as a vice leader, but as the leader of the project, I will be the one handling the compilation. I've done it before, after all, and I shouldn't have any problems doing so a second time. Still, it will be handy to have another person around to to receive maps/beta test reports and forward them to me should I fail to receive them, among other things.

Butts said:
You guys gonna start a new thread for this?
New threads (for rules, and sign-ups for both mappers and playtesters) will be started as late as June. It depends on when Dr. Zin finishes his resource WAD, as it would be useful for creating a more unified project.

Butts said:
i still think restricting the number of segs to 32678 is not a good idea, i see no reason to have that restriction, and exactly how does it complicate things?
As mentioned before, the 32768 SEGS limit is for Boom compatibility reasons, as going over that limit causes the port to crash trying to load the map. Now that I've thought about it some more, I've decided that if at least 8 posters raise objections to this limit, I will remove it and set the required engine as "Boom-compatible port with an increased SEGS limit."

Keep in mind that with Kid Airbag's idea of map organization in mind, when the maps are arranged in specific slots, they will be arranged based not only on difficulty, but also on size. If the map is very huge, it's very likely it will be placed in a later slot. Just a reminder.

Kid Airbag said:
Wait, when you say "segs," what exactly are you referring to? Sidedefs? I know WadAuthor crashes when you reach a certain amount of sidedefs, anyway.
SEGS are segments of lines that join together to form subsectors, and are generated by a node builder. Both the Doom Wiki article and Creaphis's post above mine explain it in more detail.

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Old Post 05-07-08 08:40 #
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Mechadon
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I'd totally love to contribute to a CC4, but more than likely I won't have the time to do anything if it does start up T_T

However I'm all for seeing another CC...so I say go for it guys.

Old Post 05-07-08 08:58 #
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Dutch Doomer
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Slot29 please.

Old Post 05-07-08 14:07 #
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Butts
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well, i guess im the only objection to the segs limit...

Old Post 05-07-08 15:05 #
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Death-Destiny
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So I see that T.G.H. declared himself project leader huh ;) So I guess I'll declare myself project co-leader. =D Anyway, I've got no problem with T.G.H. compliling the WAD since he did such a stellar job on CC3. Actually, this will be quite an efficient set-up. T.G.H. can actually put the thing togehter while I can make certain everything gets to him, that everything is getting done, and to keep the whole team up-to-date on things. I guess that would make me a co-ordinator wouldn't it.

I'd prefer to handle the sign-up since that would allow me to be the most flexible with keeping track of things. T.G.H. can post the rules when the project is actually ready to officially begin. Currently, that looks like it will happen in June when Dr. Zin has the resources together.

@Butts: The problem with the seg limit is, as others have said, the map in question will crash in basic Boom-compatibility. I'm familiar with your mapping style because of the collaborative map we made for DR2008, which did not run without a doubled SEG limit, which we want to avoid for this project. If I were you, I'd analyze "For We Are Many" (CC3 map29), which mananged to be very large and detailed while adhering to the SEG limit. It accomplished this by detailing the walls instead of the middle of sectors and thus subdividing the sectors less. Remember that you can check the SEGS lmp in a utility if you're worried about going over.

Also, we should see if we can get someone with admin-like powers to change this thread to the CC4 thread. We should also see if we can get most of CC3s topics either closed/helled so as to not have a bunch of clutter to hunt through.

Old Post 05-07-08 21:05 #
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Aleaver
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Death-Destiny said:
Also, we should see if we can get someone with admin-like powers to change this thread to the CC4 thread. We should also see if we can get most of CC3s topics either closed/helled so as to not have a bunch of clutter to hunt through.


I just closed the threads I started for CC 3 includeing the two stickied at the top..Thats about all I can do. A Mod would have to delete the threads and sticky new ones for map sign ups and rules.

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Old Post 05-07-08 21:22 #
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The Green Herring
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Aleaver said:
A Mod would have to delete the threads
In the interest of preserving history, I vote against this notion.

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Last edited by The Green Herring on 05-07-08 at 23:26

Old Post 05-07-08 22:11 #
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Dr. Zin
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The Green Herring said:
In the interest of preserving history, I vote against this notion.


Indeed.

Also, there needs to be agreement on the suggestions for mappers (such as a length cap) and details such as the start/end architechture.

Old Post 05-08-08 01:03 #
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Aleaver
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The Green Herring said:
In the interest of preserving history, I vote against this notion.


As would I.

I was just saying if someone wanted them gone I couldn't do it cause I do not have the powers to do so on this fourm, even though it was I who started those threads.

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Old Post 05-08-08 01:43 #
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Death-Destiny
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The Green Herring said:
In the interest of preserving history, I vote against this notion.

I would also prefer to keep the CC3 things as well. Actually, we should see if a Moderator could perhaps move them into their own thread or create a new thread for CC4 or something instead so that we can keep it, but it wouldn't get in the way? hmm...

Old Post 05-08-08 01:57 #
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Butts
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i actually already started working on my map... because i felt like it. i want this map to be very good. anyways, ideas for the texture resource wad, have the regular ultimate doom textures in it that aren't in doom 2's, and have some other "staple" textures in it, like 5th episode and some really cool variations on stock textures. and the useful flats, of course.

Old Post 05-09-08 03:30 #
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Dutch Doomer
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Its good that have an head start I'm allready planning what I want with my map some things come to mind.

Hell, rocky, hard, marble ruins, and I'm putting in an plutonia type teleporter at the start an exit cause I feel like doing that I've never done that before :p

Old Post 05-09-08 14:59 #
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myk
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Kid Airbag said:
Eh, I think there should be some standards for quality here. The term "community" isn't necessarily all-inclusive. I consider Memento Mori, Requiem, AV et al. to be "community" megawads in that they were all assembled with a large number of members of the Doom community contributing. It didn't mean though that just anyone could show up and plop something down and they'd accept it.
You should leave that to demand; if there is much activity you can privilege the contributors that are providing better content, otherwise you could hinder people that in the end contribute decent material, or stall the project.


RjY said:
PrBoom-plus seems to treat complevels far more pervasively than just options for demo compatibility. I tried to convince entryway not to arbitrarily disable sky transfers in pre-MBF complevels but he wouldn't listen ;(
He is wise, and in any case, by applying sky transfer to a "Boom" project you're just making people who use true Boom engines fail to get the levels as intended. You're not going to change what Boom (Boom v2.02 or PrBoom v2.02 especially) is by changing Boom compatibility. Besides, a project can still use the sky transfers regardless of the compatibility because the line is harmless in Boom.

The team just needs to make the cosmetic decision on whether to go for real Boom compatibility (which PrBoom+ properly implements) or for Boom acceptable behavior (that Boom can run without crashing, even though it might not get all the effects).

Old Post 05-09-08 18:18 #
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Dutch Doomer
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An possible sky for one one the episodes, it was an quick two minute jobby.
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/51/rskyyj1.png
Doesn't look too bad imo.

Old Post 05-11-08 17:31 #
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Patrick
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Another Possible Sky:
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/2268/doomskyzk3.png

Old Post 05-12-08 00:25 #
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Death-Destiny
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I like the blue starry sky. It kind of reminds me of ICARUS. =D We probably ought to use something like Dutch Devil's as well, for the hell maps in the last episode.

Old Post 05-12-08 01:37 #
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Dr. Zin
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dutch devil said:
An possible sky for one one the episodes, it was an quick two minute jobby.

Doesn't look too bad imo.



I think there is too much contrast. The really bright skies tend to make the map itself look over dark.


Janitor said:
Another Possible Sky:



Looks good, but the dimensions should be 256x128.

Old Post 05-12-08 04:12 #
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Patrick
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Dr. Zin said:

Looks good, but the dimensions should be 256x128.



I can cut this in half no problem, I was thinking in terms of ZDoom at the moment.

Old Post 05-12-08 04:30 #
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