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Aleaver
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New Starting Area Screenshots:

image
image
image
image
image
image
image

This is just of the new area only...There have been other changes to exsiting areas but most are only minor changes, not worth posting screenshots about...

Map 17 is now upto 45% complete..See top post for further info.

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Old Post 09-13-08 06:50 #
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esselfortium
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I think the rocks would look better with fewer high-contrast texture changes (like the grayish rock suddenly turning into bright orange rock), and with some y-alignments (particularly in the first shot, on the stair-stepped rocks).

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Old Post 09-13-08 07:17 #
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Aleaver
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esselfortium said:
I think the rocks would look better with fewer high-contrast texture changes (like the grayish rock suddenly turning into bright orange rock), and with some y-alignments (particularly in the first shot, on the stair-stepped rocks).


Thanks for your input!

I hope I am understanding you correctly, I will admit I'm not so smart when it comes to these things. So if what these new screenshots show is not what you where talking about, let me say sorry for it now. :P

here they are:

image
image
image

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Old Post 09-13-08 17:08 #
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esselfortium
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Hmm...that's not entirely what I meant, but it does look much better now!

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Old Post 09-13-08 18:39 #
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Aleaver
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Here is a shot of map 17 from DoomBuilder. The highlighed sector is where I stopped for the moment. You can also see the current stats of the map. And the precentage is now up to 50%. So I am half-way done with this map!

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Old Post 09-22-08 03:05 #
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Aleaver
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Yet another Doombuilder shot of map 17. The red area is where I currently stopped of course. It's up to 90% complete. All thats left is final details and monster/item placement..Then its off to the beta testers. I am keeping a close eye on the segs count on this map (currently 25,303). Just to make sure this map does not cause any problems with Boom. I will try to make some more screenshots of the map later..Although I have so many made already so I think everyone gets the point really. I will most likely leave aleast some of the map a surprise until the map is released when the project is completed.

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Old Post 09-26-08 04:45 #
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Butts
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Wow, pretty big map now. Shots look good, of course!

Old Post 09-26-08 05:15 #
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Use3D
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Damn Andy you've pulled out the stops on this one! This must be your biggest map yet. It obviously looks symmetrical, not to the point of being obnoxious, but I'll hold any reservations until I've played it.

Old Post 09-28-08 00:21 #
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Aleaver
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Use3D said:
Damn Andy you've pulled out the stops on this one! This must be your biggest map yet. It obviously looks symmetrical, not to the point of being obnoxious, but I'll hold any reservations until I've played it.


Yep, I just hope it works out ok..I really wanted to push myself with this map, but stay within the limits of Boom. (seg limit to be exact). Im not to sure about this map being the biggest I have made, but more likely the most detailed I have tried to do in a map.

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Old Post 09-28-08 02:23 #
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Christoph
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I am totally diggin that style of earth/rock area. I always try to emulate that style, or improve my skills in that area, but it's challenging the more complex you try to make thing (like multiple layers of contours intersecting, overlapping and crap). Not that this is that complex, but it looks awesome, and that's ultimately what matters (assuming it provides good gameplay too, which it should). I am a fan a large, open-ish areas with lots of weird variations in the walls and floors, but not feeling congested or too cluttered/busy. Also for some reason those (rock) textures remind me of some from Descent2. Not that is has to do with anything...

Old Post 09-29-08 01:51 #
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Aleaver
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Yep I love useing what I call earthy type textures in my maps...Even if the map is a Tech themed map. I still try to have an outdoor landscape area. As is the case with this map.

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Old Post 09-29-08 02:51 #
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Aleaver
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Doombuilder shot

Well I think I have it..The map is ready for beta testing. This is a hard map..But its beatable if you are careful and move around well. But then again Im not the best of players so I donno. It could be a cake walk for more experenced players.

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Last edited by Aleaver on 09-30-08 at 05:39

Old Post 09-30-08 05:09 #
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justanotherfool
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Aleaver, I've just been playing your map and I think it's superb. Certainly not your typical techbase in terms of visuals, and I liked the red/blue contrast you had going on there a lot.

I actually managed to complete it (well not actually, doom crashed while I was in the exit area) on my first attempt and I have a demo of the attempt, in case you're interested to see how it's played by someone who doesn't know the level. Of course I adopted a cautious style of play in order to survive an unknown level, so the demo is extremely slow (26:09 approx), but hopefully not entirely boring.

I don't really have any aesthetic refinements to suggest, since the level is basically perfect on that front, and there's not a lot to be said about gameplay either. There are a few little points though...

1. The stairs with the armour at the top when you first enter the base would be a lot more fun if you could walk on the sides ("railings") of the stairs. As it is, you're very limited in your movement, which makes the fight with the cacs etc not as fun as it could be. If you could run along the railings or just jump straight to the bottom this would be much more enjoyable, in my opinion.

2. I think the gameplay might be improved by modifying some of the linedefs that stop monsters from passing. Most notably in the big room with all the hell-knights, there are a few cacodemons and imps at the bottom of the room that are pretty useless due to being stuck in their corners until you're ready to deal with them. Also the archvile and the barons guarding the RL should be able to follow you down the corridor, that would be quite interesting :) . I admit that I was pretty relieved to discover that the vile could just be picked off at my leisure, but I think that it might be more satisfying if changed.

3. It's easy to anticipate what's coming in the symmetrical parts of the level. This isn't really a flaw, depending on your point of view, but maybe using different monsters or placement would help keep the player on their toes?

I didn't manage to find either of the secrets, but my secret finding skills are far worse than those of the average doomer, I'd venture to say. It's good that the secrets aren't required to have a chance against the monsters, though. I might get back to you again when I've had a chance to check them out.

Overall, I was extremely impressed. Oh, and here's the demo...
http://rapidshare.com/files/1497413...ok2609.zip.html

Last edited by justanotherfool on 09-30-08 at 18:59

Old Post 09-30-08 18:46 #
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Aleaver
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Awesome demo...It really did show me alot...I have somethings to fix thats for sure..At the end there for instance, you did find a somewhat hidden switch, but my dumbass has it set to high up so you can't shot it. And alot of the other switches are messed up. I had no idea you could activate them with the sector just if front of them raised up over them. Got to fix that too, other wise there would be no need for all those switches. Thanks again dude! Now I can see what needs do be done through someone elses point of view!

Thank you also for the other suggestions you made..Gave me alot to think about!

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Old Post 09-30-08 20:37 #
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justanotherfool
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I went back and found the other secret, which was well placed. Not so obscure you'd never find it without an editor, but tucked away so that you'll have to be paying attention to find it.

You can trigger the other secret if you use the SSG, but of course it would be better to have it at a height where it can be triggered with the pistol or chaingun.

I can't believe I forgot to mention those switches. Good thing I had a demo to do the talking for me :).

This map is going to be fun to record some real demos on.

EDIT: One more thing. I mentioned earlier that I thought you should remove some of the impassable linedefs stopping monsters from reaching certain areas. The hell-knights and other enemies in the corridors with the secret just past the red door can't move out of the corridor area towards the door you enter via. I think changing this so they can follow you out into the stairway room would be an improvement.

Last edited by justanotherfool on 09-30-08 at 23:50

Old Post 09-30-08 21:18 #
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Use3D
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justanotherfool said:


2. I think the gameplay might be improved by modifying some of the linedefs that stop monsters from passing. Most notably in the big room with all the hell-knights, there are a few cacodemons and imps at the bottom of the room that are pretty useless due to being stuck in their corners until you're ready to deal with them. Also the archvile and the barons guarding the RL should be able to follow you down the corridor, that would be quite interesting :) . I admit that I was pretty relieved to discover that the vile could just be picked off at my leisure, but I think that it might be more satisfying if changed.

3. It's easy to anticipate what's coming in the symmetrical parts of the level. This isn't really a flaw, depending on your point of view, but maybe using different monsters or placement would help keep the player on their toes?





First, what a great level. Spacious, imaginative, colorful and really fun. I agree with the two points above, reducing the block monster lines would help gameplay, and perhaps use more teleportation traps to spring monsters at a certain time if you're worried about wandering.

Breaking up the monster placement in the rooms will help too, and maybe mob some more critters in HMP after grabbing the keys to put that rocket launcher to use, I forgot I even had it until the end of the map.

Also, although the switches can be activated with the sector in front, if you don't want to change the architecture you can rig up a locking dummy sector that breaks the switch until you want it to activate. You'll have to set up a pass-thru trigger or whatever to undo the lock but it will keep the switches nonfunctional until the proper time. I used this method in cc1 map13 for example, but in that case it was important to preserve the look of the area. In your map it may be a hassle, but thought I'd mention it.

Anyway nice work on this, it's awesome. I'll be playing it again to find some secrets, feel free to shoot over the updated version. Yay cc4

Old Post 10-01-08 01:39 #
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Aleaver
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Ok I have completed the fixes that where needed and made afew other changes along the way including two new secrets. Changed most of the block all and block monsters lindefs. And changed around the monsters abit and added like 3 I think. You guys where right, letting the monsters pass through certin areas and changeing them up as you progress through the map did make a good bit of difference..Same link as before to download it. Enjoy!

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Old Post 10-01-08 04:37 #
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justanotherfool
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Had a very brief look on god mode this morning. The gameplay looks better now, and I see you managed to sort out the switches. Didn't find either of the new secrets, but I didn't look that hard either.
Anyway, it can be hard to kill the last archvile, since my SSG blasts knocked it down into the pit where you can't really hit it. If you try to follow it down, you exit the level. Could be solved by extending the exit area ever so slightly.

Old Post 10-01-08 11:06 #
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Aleaver
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Ah ok I have afew Ideas on how to fix that..Thanks for bring it to my attention.

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Old Post 10-01-08 11:20 #
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Aleaver
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Updated version online. Tweaked the exit area and made afew other "things" changes. See complete stats at top post. Same link as before to download..This should be the last revison of the map..Unless someone spots something else.

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Old Post 10-01-08 19:45 #
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justanotherfool
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I recorded another demo here, which I think demonstrates some further areas where impassable linedefs could be changed to make the movement of the enemies a bit more interesting. The changes I have in mind are detailed in the demo's textfile. Maybe some of them aren't possible due to ceiling heights being too low, but there's no harm in asking :) .

Didn't get to check out the revised exit because I stupidly killed myself with the RL just before that point, so I guess I'll take a look at that and the other secrets some other time. The demo clocks in at around the 16 mins mark due to me knowing where to go and using better tactics. Still a casual demo though.

http://rapidshare.com/files/1501079...ondrun.zip.html

Old Post 10-02-08 00:21 #
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Aleaver
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Hey man can't watch your demo. I changed the map this morning so now when I watch your demo it goes out of sync. I did how ever upload the new version of the map to my site so it is available...It adresses the issuse of at the end room of the map.

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Old Post 10-02-08 01:54 #
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justanotherfool
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Ah. Won't be much hassle to record another one for the latest version, since it's such a fun map :) .

Old Post 10-02-08 02:07 #
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Aleaver
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Speaking of demos...I made one. Beta testers only.. Sorry. 31 min 34 sec..Starts off slow..I had problems with my mouse..But its gets better farther into the demo..Shows how I handle going through the map..And as a note..I did take note as I was recording the demo that near the end there are some monsters stuck together..I will fix that later though..

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Old Post 10-02-08 04:52 #
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justanotherfool
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Nice demo, aleaver. Gave me some ideas about potential improvements as well.

There are various places in the map where you have multiple items stacked up on top of each other when there's plenty of space on the floor to put some of them on. There are a few places where you have chaingun and shotgun ammo boxes on top of each other, and some where you have multiple boxes of shells stacked up. This is annoying if you want to pick up one of the items but not the other, and I suggest you move some items wherever this is the case.

I also think you could improve the movement of the monsters further by tampering with the linedefs a bit more. For example, if you run up the stairs in the key hall to get the SSG as you did in your demo, you can then snipe off the cacs, hellknights, etc, trapped at the bottom of the stairs. It might be better if all of the monsters could walk up and down the stairs (including the horde in the main room).
The area with the hellknights guarding the rocket launcher would be better in my view if the hellknights could enter the corridors instead of it being possible to easily pick them off from the corners at the end of the corridors (again like the demo). This would probably make the archie harder to deal with as well.
Finally, I would like it if the monsters could open each of the three doors in the room with the blue stairs, allowing them to follow you into that room. Especially with respect to the hall with the keys.

I think there might be a bit too much health scattered around, as well. Even given the numbers and quality of the opposition, it doesn't feel that dangerous (although it's certainly entertaining). This is a minor quibble, since enjoyment should be the main factor.

Finally, I'm not sure there's really any point in the soulsphere secret at the end, since by that stage the archvile in the exit is probably the only enemy left alive anyway. I would relocate the secret and make it more difficult to find. The one in the blue area (where you teleport to the blue key) is also incredibly easy to find, since it's red. Maybe changing the button to blue would rectify this, although I suppose that having a few easy to find secrets isn't really a bad idea.

Old Post 10-02-08 16:59 #
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Aleaver
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justanotherfool said:
Nice demo, aleaver. Gave me some ideas about potential improvements as well.



Thanks. Glad it helped!


There are various places in the map where you have multiple items stacked up on top of each other when there's plenty of space on the floor to put some of them on. There are a few places where you have chaingun and shotgun ammo boxes on top of each other, and some where you have multiple boxes of shells stacked up. This is annoying if you want to pick up one of the items but not the other, and I suggest you move some items wherever this is the case.



Well I guess I could move some items around...Just don't want it to seem that there are hundreds of boxes of ammo around makeing it look like the map is super easy..Maybe it could do with alot less ammo? Would that make the map better?



I also think you could improve the movement of the monsters further by tampering with the linedefs a bit more. For example, if you run up the stairs in the key hall to get the SSG as you did in your demo, you can then snipe off the cacs, hellknights, etc, trapped at the bottom of the stairs. It might be better if all of the monsters could walk up and down the stairs (including the horde in the main room).
The area with the hellknights guarding the rocket launcher would be better in my view if the hellknights could enter the corridors instead of it being possible to easily pick them off from the corners at the end of the corridors (again like the demo). This would probably make the archie harder to deal with as well.
Finally, I would like it if the monsters could open each of the three doors in the room with the blue stairs, allowing them to follow you into that room. Especially with respect to the hall with the keys.



Ok then I will try it with all the monsters un-blocked. You maybe right on this.



I think there might be a bit too much health scattered around, as well. Even given the numbers and quality of the opposition, it doesn't feel that dangerous (although it's certainly entertaining). This is a minor quibble, since enjoyment should be the main factor.



Again same problem with ammo items. Never sure how much is enough and how much is too much..Cause everytime you play the map its different. <---sounds stupid I know but there it is.



Finally, I'm not sure there's really any point in the soulsphere secret at the end, since by that stage the archvile in the exit is probably the only enemy left alive anyway. I would relocate the secret and make it more difficult to find. The one in the blue area (where you teleport to the blue key) is also incredibly easy to find, since it's red. Maybe changing the button to blue would rectify this, although I suppose that having a few easy to find secrets isn't really a bad idea.



Yea I was thinking the same thing...I will most likely move that secret.

Again thanks for all your feedback. It really helps me to fine tune my work!

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Old Post 10-02-08 19:19 #
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Death-Destiny
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justanotherfool said:
Finally, I'm not sure there's really any point in the soulsphere secret at the end, since by that stage the archvile in the exit is probably the only enemy left alive anyway. I would relocate the secret and make it more difficult to find.

Remember that there are still 13 more maps to play after this one (assuming this map stays in slot 17). While that secret may not be very useful for playing with pistol-start, the players who like to play straight through would appreciate such things every here and there. In case they got beat up in the previous map and had to be careful in this one, this secret could allow them to start MAP18 on the right foot (and of course would have no negative effect on pistol-start). Therefore, it may not be a bad idea to leave it as is. Just keep that in mind when you decide what to do with the secret, ALeaver.

Old Post 10-02-08 19:36 #
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Aleaver
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Death-Destiny said:

Remember that there are still 13 more maps to play after this one (assuming this map stays in slot 17). While that secret may not be very useful for playing with pistol-start, the players who like to play straight through would appreciate such things every here and there. In case they got beat up in the previous map and had to be careful in this one, this secret could allow them to start MAP18 on the right foot (and of course would have no negative effect on pistol-start). Therefore, it may not be a bad idea to leave it as is. Just keep that in mind when you decide what to do with the secret, ALeaver.



This is also true...I may just do that.

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Old Post 10-02-08 19:52 #
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Use3D
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I agree and think you should tweak the health on all difficulties.

Old Post 10-03-08 01:19 #
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Aleaver
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The Green Herring and I talked eariler today and he told me to change node builders from Zdbsp to ZenNode so I could add on more to the map without going over the Seg limit. The map also looks better cause ZenNode took out all the Slime trails! So I am currently re-working some of the map and adding addintal trap monsters and such..Tweaking the things like ammo and health. There will be more monsters but I think it will be better in the end..The game play as already changed noticeably. But I still have somethings to do..I'll post the updated map when I am certin its balanced. Well as far as I can see anyway..Doing all this just goes to show that things escape my view alot of times..But I guess thats what beta testing is all about! :P

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Old Post 10-03-08 03:11 #
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