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Phobus
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Posts: 2567
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Statistics:
Status: 100%
Hours Spent Working: 30
Vertices: 3447
Linedefs: 4091
Sidedefs: 6503
Sectors: 582
Things: 713
Secrets: 8
Monsters on Hard: 294
Monsters on Medium: 235
Monsters on Easy: 168
No Monsters Speed Run Time: 60 seconds (me on ZDoom)
UV Speed Run Time With Monsters: 90 seconds (me on ZDoom)
UV Max Run (all kills, all secrets): 18:10 (1090 seconds) (me on ZDoom)
Music: D_E1M9

EDIT9: *screenshots section removed*

Old Stuff:

ORIGINAL POST: So far the map almost has the full basic layout in from a top-down perspective. This means it's about 25% done.

EDIT: The map has now progressed so that the full layout is done except for secrets. I've also done the heights and started on texturing the map. Some theming will be added as a part of the texturing phase to make things look a bit more interesting, and add to the gameplay and potential for secret areas. Currently saying it's 33% done.

EDIT2: Height are done fully, and you'll all be chuffed to know I've got the basic texture scheme down almost 100% - sadly it'll need plenty of borders and the like to handle the frequent changes in brick work. Detail is for the future however, so we'll get round to that. No screens yet I'm afraid!

EDIT3: Heights, texturing, most detail that I can be bothered with in what is essentially a gameplay map and most lighting is done, with a hint of gameplay in places. Secrets are also pretty much all in. There's hope for this making it before the end. Knocking this up an arbitrary amount to say we're nearly there.

EDIT4: Continuing with my little updates. As mentioned yesterday, I'm going for my final push. Architecture is mostly all in now (detail included) as I'm going for a lower detail approach to the map. It looks alright to me, and has plenty of playability (extra routes, secrets, non-linear approaches to problems and plenty of bonuses) from what I can tell so far - enemy placement and testing is the main part left for me to contend with, but I'll finish up the architecure and aesthetics job first. Calling it 80%, so we have 5% left for architecture and the like, and 15% for gameplay, testing and Co-op/DM compatability.

EDIT5: Two updates in one day - just shows that I'm really getting somewhere. Architecture, aesthetics and details are all done. Any further modifications to the map are all for addition of or improvements to gameplay and flow. I'll put up screenshots and a stats list like for MAP03 when I'm all done. Gameplay work shall start tomorrow.

EDIT6: Map is now technically 100% - just need difficulty modes that make a difference and Multiplayer extras before I count this as finished.

EDIT7: Just Multiplayer to go!

EDIT8: Added a few DM starts and a bit of extra weaponary to cover that base - probably not very suitable for the mode however. No extra monsters as no ammo was added for DM and the guns won't provide much of an advantage in co-op.

Last edited by Phobus on 11-27-10 at 14:57

Old Post 12-11-09 01:24 #
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Phobus
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And there we go - bumped so that you can see I consider this 100%. Submitted to TGH as per the rules so he can distribute it to the testers and see what they think.

Old Post 02-06-10 00:37 #
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[WH]-Wilou84
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Looking very good, I like that Plutonia feel.

Old Post 02-06-10 09:21 #
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Phobus
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So far testing has thrown up one ZDoomism (found by printz) which means that lines 971 and 1678 (I think) can block eachothers use actions. Passthru has been added to these lines using the Boom editing mode in DB to address this issue (as suggested by printz).

I shall not resubmit the map with this error fixed just yet however, as I'm awaiting feedback from other testers, as they may be other errors or gameplay issues that haven't been noticed yet (much as I'd like to think there aren't :P).

Old Post 02-07-10 15:42 #
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Phobus
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Anima Zero has also provided feedback which reinforces printz's main find and has also suggested making the radsuit secret in section 1 a little more worthwhile by having enough health in it to counter more than one acid hit. This will be done unless any other testers feel this would be a negative thing.

Any future testers:

-A speed run attempt from somebody would be quite appreciated, just to see if the extra routes I put in were worthwhile.
-The computer map room has been suggested for alterations - do any of you aree with this, and if so, what are your suggestions?

Old Post 02-09-10 22:22 #
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justanotherfool
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Posts: 200
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Phobus said:

Any future testers:

-A speed run attempt from somebody would be quite appreciated, just to see if the extra routes I put in were worthwhile.
-The computer map room has been suggested for alterations - do any of you aree with this, and if so, what are your suggestions?



I would like to see the computer map room altered, but it's difficult to say what should be done with it. It looks a little simplistic compared with the other rooms in that starting area, and the computer map is just lying there ready to be picked up. Maybe you should keep the idea of the pit, but enlarge it and make it so that you have to run across some platforms (which would rise and fall so that you had to time it correctly) in order to finally reach the CAM. You could have some imps and hitscanners firing at you from openings in the walls, and maybe some cacodemons and pain elementals get released once you pick the map up. I think it would be better too if the room weren't so dark (maybe the light levels could be decreased once the CAM is taken). I also think that the slime does too much damage (not that you spend a lot of time in that particular pit), and the trap as it stands is laughably easy. The CAM is the key to the many secrets within the map, so getting it should be a riskier proposition than it currently is.

Just a few suggestions off the top of my head. The room could definitely be improved.

I have a fair number of other things to say about the map, but be warned that my feedback isn't very well structured...

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/5605/doom83.png
I did not like this grating at all, as it makes it far too difficult to see what's going on outside, greatly increasing the probability o taking a rocket to the face before really being aware of the location of the cyb. I'd prefer some kind of long window along this corridor instead. Seems like you might have intended the player to be forced to run outside to get a better view, but even with improved visibility they'd have to go outside to kill the demons and avoid the rockets anyway, but the chances of being crushed by an unseen projectile would be greatly decreased.

The other irritating thing about this fight is the difficulty of targeting the chaingunners who snipe at you from those really tall platforms (obviously this doesn't apply if you found the secret lift with the invulnerability). Even with the chaingun you have to do some awkward running up and down the stairs to be able to target them. Could lower the platforms or construct a lift to some higher vantage point.

Without the obstructive grating and the difficult to hit chaingunners the fight isn't actually very difficult, since it's easy to shelter from the cyb and there are only a few other (weak) monsters that can get you while you're out of view of the cybie. Maybe a few more imps and some barons/knights would make the fight a bit more interesting.

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/7894/doom80.png
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/861/doom79.png
This part I did not like the look of. The stair texture is horrible, there are too many steps and the steepness is too great. Some curvy stairs or a lift might make this a bit better, or maybe a slight tweaking is all that's needed. Once you get to the top the shape of the wall is quite strange, looks almost triangular.

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/7412/doom78.png
Something about this doesn't look quite right to me, maybe it's the transition between brick and metal where the switch is. Something about the pool looks very artifical too.

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/1488/doom77.png
Same with the switch here. I'd prefer it if the exit was a teleporter set up on the grey platform. At least set the button higher up in the wall, it seems too low to the ground. I appreciate that this (and some of my other stylistic points) may seem overly pedantic, but I'm of the view that a few minor visual alterations can have quite a large impact on the feel of a map.

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/3963/doom62.png
The sectors on top of the metal poles seem to be flickering or unusually dark in a way that didn't translate very well to screenshots. Anyway, I thought it didn't look how I would have expected.

Regarding the secret cave in the river: the slime does far too much damage. If you get hit by the spectres or waste too much time fighting them, your chances of getting out alive are very small indeed.

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/554/doom65.png
This outdoor area is nice, but the contrast between the light levels in the cave sector and the sky sector seems excessive. Also, I don't know that the LAV goggles are really worthy of being a secret (same could be argued for the rad suit at the beginning).

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/7188/doom64.png
Textures here are misaligned, plus the shape of the rock seems odd.

http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/9458/doom63.png
It doesn't seem that you can actually use the lift from this side, don't know if that was intentional. I also think this would look better with a lift texture instead of a switch (same goes for other lifts of this kind in the map, as in the next picture).
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/6826/doom71.png

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/8798/doom76.png
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/4652/doom75.png
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/401/doom74.png
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/1525/doom73.png
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/9131/doom72.png
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/7299/doom70.png
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/4238/doom69.png
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/7959/doom68.png
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/7766/doom67.png
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/9626/doom66.png

It's difficult to know exactly what to say about this section, except that I didn't like the look of it at all (played fine though). It just looks like a really weird combination of a bunch of different themes. There are areas where the rooms seem too blocky, areas with some extremely oddly shaped sectors, areas where the ceilings and walls are too bare, areas with not enough texture variation, areas where computer panels and SHAWN have been used excessively, etc, etc. I don't necessarily think there's anything wrong with the overlying structure of the second base, I just think you might want to go over it and change some textures and reshape some of the rooms slightly. I think your use of lighting was much better in the first part of the level. Some wall lights, really dark areas, etc, could make the second base a lot more interesting. Most of the lights are just textures embedded in the ceiling and don't even have their own fixtures at the moment. I did really like the room with the blue key, and the base is pleasingly non-linear, so it's not all bad :P.

The second base was the only weak point, though, the outdoor areas and the base at the start were very much to my liking. The secrets were clever (especially the plasma gun which was hidden in plain sight).

I don't have too much to say about the gameplay right now, but I'll keep looking and see if I come up with any improvements. I'll record a speedrun if I don't forget, too.

Old Post 02-11-10 01:50 #
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RjY
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Posts: 930
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justanotherfool said:
make it so that you have to run across some platforms (which would rise and fall so that you had to time it correctly)
Argh! Please don't encourage people to put aggravating jumping puzzles into their maps. :)

The CAM is the key to the many secrets within the map, so getting it should be a riskier proposition than it currently is.
I didn't think it gave away too much due to the author's judicial use of the never-shown-on-map linedef flag.

I do agree the trap could be beefed up a little. One way might be to lock the player in so he can't hide from the chaingunner so easily.

Old Post 02-11-10 08:55 #
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justanotherfool
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As promised, I recorded some UV-Speed demos on the map. I have two (both around the 1:20 mark) utilising slightly different routes.

http://rapidshare.com/files/3491165...h2srun.lmp.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/3491165...2srun2.lmp.html
(Demos were recorded with prboom-plus 2.5.0.2, hud enabled, for the record)

This map was enormously fun to speedrun. Once you get to the outdoors area there are monsters attacking you from every side and you don't get a moment's respite from there, just the way I like it.

I liked the way the troopers at the start all filed into the exit hallway making it a desperate race to the exit before a rocket catches you.

I think removing the invulnerability on the top of the lift might make speedrunning even better (and it tends to make the outdoors fight too easy if you're playing casually as well) since as exciting as the run is, it's also a little bit too easy. On the other hand, the invuln could be vital for nightmare runs, so I'm not exactly sure what should be done with it. Maybe place it elsewhere and put something else in the lift secret?

I've decided I was too harsh regarding the second base as well. While I still think it's a little weaker than the rest of the map aesthetically, its non-linearity makes it much more interesting than I first thought, and the monster placement is better than I remembered it on my first playthrough. It seems that the door at the bottom of the base leading inside from the outdoors area can only be used once or maybe from one side (not exactly sure) and that's something that I really think should be fixed. In a few speedrun attempts I had to start again because I wasn't able to get out that way.

I also like the grille texture just past the yellow key door when you go outside better than I did at first glance, probably because I now know how many monsters are outside and where they are. A player seeing it for the first time might still be annoyed, though.

RjY: Maybe you're right about the infuriating jumping traps, as a speedrunner I should know better than to ever suggest such a thing :P

I'd still like some platforms which can be travesed quickly with skilful movement while also making it easy to fall into the slime if you're careless (of course there should always be a way out), but they should probably be stationary.

The CAM didn't give away too much, it's true, but once you know the general vicinity of the secrets they're easy enough to locate, since no fancy maneuvers are required.

Old Post 02-11-10 12:30 #
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Phobus
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Well, that's a lot of feedback justanotherfool!

Interesting how the map grew on you when you were playing it in a different style, also glad to hear (and see) that my various extra routes proved beneficial to gameplay. I think the invulnerability should stay, as the main thing I use it for is getting to the megasphere secret with ease (which helps in my versions of the speed run, as taking damage near the end is fairly likely).

I'll avoid a jumping puzzle in the CAM room due to complaints I've had on previous maps for similar ideas. What I will do at the moment is leave it until I get further feedback, as I feel the low difficulty of the room and the ease of access to a fairly valuable item nicely offset the overall challenge of the first area, and make the whole part seem like the side area it really is.

Aesthetic issues such as switches on lifts and gameplay oriented architecture will remain largely unchanged, though I'll certainly align that rock texture.

Various points of address in bullet point form here:

-High contrast lighting is more for gameplay than aesthetics (although the bars room is because I've always liked that sort of thing)
-The broken door has been addressed already, and I've seen the major flaw of not testing in the required port in action now.
-The steep DOORSTOP-on-its-side staircase is quite ugly, but it serves its function quite well I feel, and any alternatives would still be as bad given the space constrictions there, so I went for minimalism.
-I feel the nukage damages throughout the map are balanced out enough, as its easily possible to avoid stepping in any of it (except the river, which can be ran over with ease) and makes it a viable risk.
-The second base is actually cannibalised from a cancelled ZDoom map that I'd only started on, and the initial plans with detail and all the rest of it were at odds with the fairly streamlined architecture in the rest of the map, so I went for a very gameplay oriented aesthetic (which does make it look quite similar to Doom2 maps in terms of detail, I'll admit).
-The grille is mostly there to funnel the player to the side quickly, as letting him jump straight down would be too easy. The threat the cyberdemon poses when you're up there accentuates this nicely I feel. It's also the right height for the opening, so I would have left it as is I think.

Summary:

-Door/lift issue is fixed, and this will be submitted in due time.
-CAM room is being considered for alteration soon - awaiting more opinions.
-Rock texture will be aligned.
-Aesthetics will be largely unaltered as it allows for the map to play smoothly.
-Secrets will be left as is due to their potential combinations and challenges.

Old Post 02-11-10 13:22 #
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Phobus
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Fiddled around with aesthetics a bit, and did the other stuff I said I was going to do - I swapped a cacodemon for a pain elemental in the CAM room, making it a lot more challenging on UV, but likewise a lot less predictable. Seemed like the best way to improve it without altering the way the room looked (which I did like).

Sending it off to TGH now so that he can distribute it to the testers (I'm presuming he has the e-mail addresses available and can send it out with a lot more ease than I).

Old Post 02-28-10 11:47 #
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Christoph
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Looks pretty professional (based on the first screenshots), and reminiscnet of classic (Plutonia-ish) wads. You seem to know what you're doing much better than I do, so I don't really have any suggestions. But I definitely look forward to playing this when it's done!

Old Post 03-17-10 06:55 #
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