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The Green Herring
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As you know, the second mapping deadline, December 31, 2009 is well past.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss how we should approach the next mapping deadline for this project. Should we set a shorter deadline? Should we do something other than "DUE AT THIS DATE"? Should we base things more on productivity, i.e. whoever finishes their entries first gets in the WAD? I would like your input on the topic.

Thanks.

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Old Post 01-06-10 19:32 #
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[WH]-Wilou84
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Don't really know what to say... It's entirely up to the map authors, they have to feel involved in this project and be sure whether they can finish the map(s) they started in an acceptable amount of time ( say, 2-3 months, dunno ) or not ( in that case, better say it already so that other mappers could take their chance ).

Tough choice there TGH, you have to find the proper level of pressure to put on your mappers' shoulders...
Said mappers should really voice their feelings, that's what this thread is for.

Just wanted to add that if needed, I'd be ready to make a second map for CC4 ( this time something Plutonia-esque in the 1-11 slot range, if possible of course ). Would take approx. 3 months, as exams and stuff are in the way.
Oh well, every slot is taken anyway :p
Heh. I'll wait for CC5 then.

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On the subject of productivity and next CCs ( let's hope there's more to come ) : You said somewhere that CC4's role was basically to "promote" newcomers to Doom mapping by allowing them to submit maps and make progress alongside more experienced mappers.


The Green Herring said:
Should we base things more on productivity, i.e. whoever finishes their entries first gets in the WAD?

If you do that for future CCs, maybe those newbie mappers will feel rushed and won't even dare to "race" against other mappers.

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Old Post 01-07-10 00:36 #
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Phobus
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Given that most of the more experienced mappers on this forum are the ones that take the longest to make maps, in theory I'd imagine newbies who aren't striving for perfection as much would probably get theirs done in a reasonable amount of time anyway - we'd just have a CC full of wads by new people.

Unless of course this prompted a rush by the more experienced mappers. However, as deadlines certainly haven't, I'd not be too surprised if this didn't happen.

As for me... I'm not sure how to handle the larger project, but I started my map midway through last month, and I will finish it this month almost gauranteed. Otherwise it will be very early next month. Still a bit dissappointed I didn't get it done last month to be honest.

Old Post 01-07-10 12:01 #
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Creaphis
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Maybe the system of assigning people specific slots just doesn't work very well anymore. We've become lazy; we just complacently occupy slots forever. Maybe, if having a map slot wasn't guaranteed, mappers would feel a bit charged up by the need to earn their slot. Invite any and all mappers to make maps for this project, and, if anyone hasn't finished their map by the time 32 good maps have been collected, that's just too bad.

I dunno, just a thought.

Old Post 01-07-10 19:19 #
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Patrick
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EDIT: ^^What Creaphis said. I'm now available to work on a CC4 map now that all my other projects have been lost in that break in. So if any more maps are needed I can still contribute.

As for a better way to handle deadlines, giving some more incentive to finish is always a good idea. If people get their entries in faster, they can choose what slot they put it in (obviously maps with secret exits and special lines will be the exception). Clear the map list and tell people that they get to choose their slot when done.

Last edited by Patrick on 01-07-10 at 20:00

Old Post 01-07-10 19:53 #
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lupinx-Kassman
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I just want to make note of an issue that has been impeding my progress (and perhaps the progress of others as well, as I know of at least one other mapper who is having a similar problem): the SEG limit. I probably would have finished my map by now if it hadn't been for my constant debating of how to end it without breaking the limit.

I am currently at 32500 SEGs. The indoors portion (and probably the most significant portion of the map) can't really be made the way I intended because it would easily breach the limit by this point in time. If I do finish the map the way I intend, a large portion of the map would have to be cut out in order to include it, something that would probably greatly affect the gameplay.

I understand if there are objections, but all I am asking, is that since the first three community chest megawads allowed maps that broke the SEG limit, would it be okay if that rule was modified for this installment as well?

Old Post 01-08-10 06:26 #
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esselfortium
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I've got to agree. Are there any modern Boom-compatible ports (or good-enough-for-government-work almost-compatible ports, you know who you are) that people use that don't support the doubled segs limit nowadays? PrBoom, PrBoom-Plus, ZDoom, GZDoom, Skulltag, Etenity all support maps with 65535 segs. Probably some other ports I don't use do, too.

Literally no one is ever going to play this in boom.exe in DOS unless they're trying to test whether or not it's "REALLY boom compatible LOL!"

The doubled limit is so widely supported in Boom-compatible ports nowadays that there's really no good reason to artificially limit CC4's contributors by enforcing a data limit that's only half of what ports are capable of actually loading.

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Old Post 01-08-10 06:32 #
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Pottus
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I have the same problem right now as well doubling the limit would be beneficial to completing our levels as intended. I'm sure other people will be pleased and will take advantage as I highly doubt anyone is going to play this Boom it's just not a viable port anymore.

Old Post 01-08-10 06:33 #
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Darkman 4
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esselfortium said:
I've got to agree. Are there any modern Boom-compatible ports (or good-enough-for-government-work almost-compatible ports, you know who you are) that people use that don't support the doubled segs limit nowadays? PrBoom, PrBoom-Plus, ZDoom, GZDoom, Skulltag, Etenity all support maps with 65535 segs. Probably some other ports I don't use do, too.

Literally no one is ever going to play this in boom.exe in DOS unless they're trying to test whether or not it's "REALLY boom compatible LOL!"

The doubled limit is so widely supported in Boom-compatible ports nowadays that there's really no good reason to artificially limit CC4's contributors by enforcing a data limit that's only half of what ports are capable of actually loading.



What about Risen3D? :P

Old Post 01-08-10 06:51 #
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esselfortium
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People use that?

Er, serious answer, though, I have no idea because I've never used Risen3D.

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Old Post 01-08-10 06:54 #
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Darkman 4
Heh fanboy.


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esselfortium said:
People use that?

Er, serious answer, though, I have no idea because I've never used Risen3D.



Haha, I was kidding. I know nobody uses Risen3D. :D

Old Post 01-08-10 06:55 #
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The Green Herring
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At the time I added the SEGS limit guideline (not a rule, a guideline,) I had a rather purist definition of what "Boom-compatible" meant. If the whole team had to adhere to an arbitrary limit, so be it. But since then, I had a change of heart. Boom as a whole, while enhancing level design capabilities, is ultimately flawed (generalized walk-triggered crushers don't even work due to a programming error, for instance, and generalized texture-changing linedefs don't change till the sector stops moving even if it's moving upward,) and rather silly (goofy recoil enabled by default? Tacky recolored status bar numbers by default?) in its implementation. While I'm willing to work around its silliness, there's just no reason everyone else should have to bear with a widely-rectified and arbitrary limit for a non-vanilla Doom project any longer.

From this point on, the 32768 SEGS guideline has been removed. The only difference it should make is a note in the text file to point out that it requires ports that support more than 32768 SEGS, which, as was pointed out, is pretty much every Boom-compatible source port these days. Now, those who were restricted by this limit will be able to finish their levels the way they want to.

Now that that matter has been taken care of, we shall resume discussion of the next deadline. Great suggestions have been made, and I'd like to hear some more.

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Last edited by The Green Herring on 01-08-10 at 07:23

Old Post 01-08-10 07:02 #
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esselfortium
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The Green Herring said:
From this point on, the 32768 SEGS guideline has been removed

http://sl4.poned.com/emot/bighearts.png

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Old Post 01-08-10 07:09 #
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myk
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esselfortium said:
Literally no one is ever going to play this in boom.exe in DOS unless they're trying to test whether or not it's "REALLY boom compatible LOL!"
Well, actually, I always watch Boom demos in Boom, when I can. There's some "seeing if it works" involved although the "LOL" is kinda missing because as a direct result some Boom compatibility bugs in PrBoom+ have been squashed. By the way, I recall hearing one guy, Donce, say he uses Boom for Boom levels... and also The Green Herring himself. Not that they wouldn't use PrBoom+ instead, if necessary, I bet.

Another drawback of high segs is performance. That greenish level in DVII got complaints for this reason from various people, for example.

That said, and while I prefer less detailed levels for various reasons including the above two, by no means should this be taken as a personal complaint about the demand nor the resolution. I'm not in the project, Boom isn't my main "playing field" and if some level lags a bit during some demo playback or whatever, no biggie. It's just a clarification from my perspective.


Darkman 4 said:
Haha, I was kidding. I know nobody uses Risen3D. :D
Not really that funny, actually, because some people do. One can decide to forgo some engine support for other reasons, but let's leave minority mocking out of it.


The Green Herring said:
The only difference it should make is a note in the text file to point out that it requires ports that support more than 32768 SEGS, which, as was pointed out, is pretty much every Boom-compatible source port these days.
You could also note which specific levels exceed any Boom limits and how. In addition to SEGS, some might be using the MBF sky transfer line. People wanting to play with their favorite but more archaic port, leaving those aside to perhaps play later with a more capable engine, would know how to proceed. In any case, don't call it "Boom compatible" but something like "Boom extended" and clarify below. Otherwise people will have the right to complain it isn't Boom compatible (because it isn't.)

Old Post 01-08-10 11:33 #
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lupinx-Kassman
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I am very thankful to TheGreenHerring for removing the SEGs guideline (although I suppose if it was only a guideline I would have been allowed to break the limit in the past, poor memory on my part.) Now that I have this in mind however, I am back into my map in full gear ;).

Old Post 01-08-10 19:55 #
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printz
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Too bad that Graf Zahl's anti-megawad policy can't be applied here. Doing so would mean capitulation and jeopardizing any future C.C. attempts :|

Why don't you allow people to register for mapping here for spare slots? So people with three @s get replaced by others with timely-done maps, not by empty slots. Like in this kinda project.

Old Post 01-08-10 20:44 #
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Nuxius
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Dr. Zin said:
Maybe we could do some speed style Exquisite Corpse sessions. Like, give the participants a theme and make some sort of architechtural doorway prefab that they have to include on the edges of there section. Give them 12 hours or so to work, and then collect all of the pieces and have someone compile and link them together into a coherent map. I think it would keep with the whole "Community Chest" ethos, and it can be done until there are enough maps to fill out the project.

I still like this idea. ;)


Nuxius said:
I would be totally up for this to replace my mapspot if others are interested, as work isn't allowing me to work on my map as much as I need to. (I am still working on it though.)

And this still goes. :)

Old Post 01-30-10 21:01 #
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The Green Herring
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The first status check of the year has been completed, and at this time, nothing has been determined yet regarding this topic. I'm going to, ironically, set a deadline for this. How all of this will be handled is something that Use3D and I must define by February 28, 2010. Until then, please keep up with the suggestions.

Use3D, this is your cue to start discussing this with me at greater length. And I don't mean by PMs either.

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Old Post 02-01-10 17:20 #
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Kirby
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As much as I'd hate to have something like this imposed, I'd go for stricter rules regarding procrastination. Considering the stagnation (or even simply just lack of response) make it a rule that if a mapper is not responding, or if a map is not ready by the submittal date, automatically drop the map . I know it seems harsh, but the maps that are not finished (myself included) have to have some sort of tougher rule to prevent procrastination. While this may cause rushed maps near the endline, it seems to me one of the only ways to actually get people to finish their maps and prevent the pushing of this due date any further.

Old Post 02-01-10 18:17 #
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RjY
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One problem is inherent in the nature of the project. CChest's purpose has been described as "to give up-and-coming but less-well-known mappers a chance to show off their skills". So you're an up-and-coming mapper who wants to make a name for himself: you see what's been done before, and you try to top it. You end up trying to make an enormous map full of filigree detail, masses of new textures, and complex systems of linedefs and voodoo dolls: the kind of map that takes ages to make, and is easy to put off working on. Not to mention is quite likely beyond your skills/experience to pull off successfully. "It's better to have a moderately cool project that is complete than to have a super-cool project that is not complete."

I agree with Kirby's point about being tougher on procrastination. I would go further and say if all you've done publically is posted a few screenshots and "I am still working on this" once a month in the status check thread, then frankly, you're not; you're just hogging a map slot and deluding yourself you'll finish one day.

Finally, not that there can be much done about this, but: it can't help that there are so many other community projects. There seem to be at least 5 running just in Wads&Mods at any given time (never mind other sites like skulltag or zdoom.org.) These are only going to suck time and attention away from what is arguably Doomworld's "official" community project. Frankly sometimes I think "let's do a community project" is just a mutated strain of the old "I'm making a TC, and I need mappers, and sprite and texture artists."

Old Post 02-02-10 13:29 #
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glaber
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I find it's best to try to approach the CC project like SRB2's Original Level Design Contest, but that's me.

Old Post 02-08-10 07:20 #
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The Green Herring
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Thank you, everyone, for your suggestions! A new sign-up thread has been created, with brand-new rules. Please click here to go there! Thank you again for taking the time to discuss this!

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Old Post 02-09-10 00:21 #
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