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justanotherfool
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Posts: 200
Registered: 12-07


It's time for the last segment of my initial feedback report. This one has the most screenshots attached, but since a lot of the points raised have already been mentioned previously, I hope there won't be too much text.

- http://yfrog.com/mzdoom00p
Nothing new here. This area looks fairly good, but it would look better if the cliffs weren't so uniformly smooth with little in the way of outcroppings, and if they didn't all end at the same height. Outdoor areas are an opportunity to make your level feel much bigger and more encompassing of the player than it really is, and I just feel you could make better use of them. The lava waterfall is a nice touch. There's also the previously mentioned incongruity of the top of the surface you walk on and the sides, since their colours and materials look very different.

- http://yfrog.com/g9doom01p
This animated texture looks like a laser beam, and so it looks a little out of place. Not really too big a deal, though.

- http://yfrog.com/4bdoom02zp
This looks a little bit too much like a teleporter for the player, so you half expect it to teleport you somewhere bad, then you have to inch around avoiding it and it gets in the way. I think it would be better if it didn't so much resemble a player teleporter and looked more like what it is: for monsters only.

- http://yfrog.com/fxdoom03p
Some of the temple edges seem just a little too jagged.

- http://yfrog.com/9fdoom04p
The texturing and shape of this wall makes it look artificial. The very regular cubbyholes heighten this impression considerably. They might look better if they were more cave-like.

I really think some texture variation is needed for such a large wall. This texture on its own doesn't look too good.

- http://yfrog.com/1ndoom05p
This is hyper-pedantic, but maybe you could add another border to the bottom step of the temple, to prevent the texture getting cut off halfway (which looks messy if your eye strays there, which it probably won't :P).

- http://yfrog.com/76doom06p
Nice structure, but it would look better if the grey stone was recessed a few units inward so it doesn't seem to flow directly into the other material (leading to an appearance of misalignment).

- http://yfrog.com/nbdoom07p
This hellknight appears to be stuck.

- http://yfrog.com/51doom08p
These stairs have some misalignments.

- http://yfrog.com/47doom09p
This looks a little weird to me for some reason. Could be the floor and ceiling textures of the little recess, or maybe it's too thick.

- http://yfrog.com/g1doom10p
The same old problem with lava sectors being perhaps too bright, but more importantly the cave's ceiling texture clashes quite badly with everything else, in my view.

- http://yfrog.com/mxdoom11p
Once the archvile has appeared here, you can't move through the little segment of seemingly empty space where it appeared.

- http://yfrog.com/fydoom12p
Can just see the beginnings of a few switch heads from certain angles here (look to the bottom right).

- http://yfrog.com/77doom13p
These platforms might look better with a different side texture.

- http://yfrog.com/e9doom14p
The 'middle' pillar lowers to reveal red sides that don't match the floor texture of that sector.

- http://yfrog.com/6xdoom15p
http://yfrog.com/modoom16p
Bars with nothing to support them, I already mentioned this often in previous posts.
Some of the corners are too sharp as well.

- http://yfrog.com/mzdoom17p
Not sure that I like these little cubbyholes. The main problem with them must be that the floor/ceiling textures and the wall textures don't match too well. That applies to a lot of the surrounding area as well.

- http://yfrog.com/nbdoom18p
Again not sure the ceiling texture fits.

- http://yfrog.com/jodoom19p
Again the ceiling texture.

- http://yfrog.com/mhdoom20p
These walls that soon lower are a bit too jagged. And why are there gaps at the edges, anyway? If it's for sound to travel, I'm sure there are less conspicuous ways of doing this.

- http://yfrog.com/judoom21p
The usual comments I made regarding all the outdoor areas apply here (re: uniformity of wall heights, etc), but this was another area that made me wonder if it's actually beatable on UV. Seems absolutely vicious, though I admit I haven't actually tried without god mode yet to see if there's a sound strategy.

- http://yfrog.com/55doom22p
The three or so chaingunners hiding behind here are a nuisance. Maybe that was the intention?

- http://yfrog.com/5ydoom23p
The textures here don't mix well. I might like some rock outcroppings, varying ceiling heights, etc to make this look more like a rocky tunnel.

- http://yfrog.com/jtdoom24p
This just didn't look that good to me for reasons that aren't immediately apparent, though I guess it has to do with the extreme height of the walls and the relative slenderness of the tunnel, and also the weird angles of some of the linedefs.

- http://yfrog.com/49doom25p
These pillars look a little weird. Too square maybe? I also think that the tops are too wide. At the top of that lava fall, the walls are way too jagged.

- http://yfrog.com/77doom26p
Same thing with the fenceposts as ever. They also obstruct the view.

- http://yfrog.com/emdoom27p
Another oft repeated point, the lava sectors are arguably too well lit.

- http://yfrog.com/77doom28p
I can't imagine a little niche in the rock having such flat ceilings, and the ceiling texture is bad.

- http://yfrog.com/gvdoom29p
http://yfrog.com/5ndoom30p
http://yfrog.com/jwdoom31p
This whole area (above the huge teleporter fight) looks a little off, and could use some touching up of some kind. I think the flat, mistextured ceiling and the side compartments with incredibly neat and perfect window holes are the main problems. There are some major texture issues with the elevator.

- http://yfrog.com/18doom32p
If you go through the teleporter back to the big pentagram, it's not that difficult to end up being taken back to the this area, necessitating a long trek through the map to get back to where you were.

- http://yfrog.com/nadoom33p
All the holes in the ceiling from which the cybs lower look out of place, partly due to texturing, and partly due to the weird shapes you get in the ceiling.

- http://yfrog.com/5jdoom34p
Again, this looks borderline unplayable. Hordes of revs, and a bunch of archies and cybs in what is a relatively small area with not a lot of cover? Particularly the two cyberdemons that teleport into the tunnel mouths when you hit one of the switches.

- http://yfrog.com/fydoom35p
An interesting idea, but I'm not sure this texture around the bottom of the pillars fits very well.

- http://yfrog.com/mxdoom36p
You can actually skip the huge ambush here because you don't actually need to hit this switch to advance further. Don't know whether this was intended or not.

- http://yfrog.com/g0doom37p
http://yfrog.com/28doom38p
More texture clashing in the cavern next to that teleport ambush.

- http://yfrog.com/4pdoom39p
I'm sure you don't need me to comment on what's wrong with the cliff wall here.

- http://yfrog.com/6bdoom40p
The transition between the two surfaces here doesn't work, since they're both at the same height and the textures clash. Also, such a small raised platform shouldn't have a texture with a pattern it doesn't even have room to hold.

- http://yfrog.com/6bdoom41p
More square hollows with dodgy ceilings, more sharp corners and more unsupported railings.

- http://yfrog.com/7edoom42p
Some texture misalignments here. Also, why are there four teleporters which seem to all lead to the same place? It means you need to check all of them to be sure they go nowhere, and it's fairly easy to get disoriented.

- http://yfrog.com/2hdoom43p
Misalignments and textures that vary too much in colour.

- http://yfrog.com/mxdoom44p
http://yfrog.com/05doom45p
The clifftops are a little too close to where you're standing when you teleport up here, so that you can almost see the flatness of the ceiling. These ledges seem to exist just to hold rockets that may as well be placed somewhere else. They don't give you a more interesting view or lead anywhere else or anything like that.

- http://yfrog.com/5cdoom47p
This feels like it needs a little bit of sprucing up, and this fight with the chaingunners is probably very tedious without god mode.

- http://yfrog.com/ehdoom48p
These side rooms look a little bare.

- http://yfrog.com/1fdoom49p
I like the pink flesh growths you have here, but I don't think they fit very well with the sand/rock surroundings. I think if you textured the immediately surrounding areas with marble or something to give it a temple motif with the temple adjoined to the rocky area, this could look a lot better. Just a suggestion.

Well, looks like I'm finally done, at least until the next update :P

I apologise for all the repetition, but I felt the need to be as thorough as possible so I wouldn't overlook anything, even if that meant retreading familiar ground. When you're done with the next version, I'll see if I can beat it sans iddqd. No doubt it'll be tough going. I can't wait :/

Old Post 11-04-10 01:16 #
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esselfortium
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I think the rock+flesh combination in the last shot looks good, personally.

Old Post 11-04-10 01:43 #
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Processingcontrol
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esselfortium said:
I think the rock+flesh combination in the last shot looks good, personally.


I second that.

Old Post 11-04-10 02:11 #
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justanotherfool
Junior Member


Posts: 200
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esselfortium said:
I think the rock+flesh combination in the last shot looks good, personally.


Yeah, it looks pretty nice, but I think the introduction of the flesh elements was a little too sudden. They don't occur anywhere else in this rock area, so I felt that this area might benefit from a different texture scheme to lend some sort of justification to the sudden flesh infestation.

I suppose I shouldn't be so obsessed with the internal consistency of the map. There's no particular reason why the rocks would suddenly expand into this fleshy area, but there's no reason they wouldn't, either.

This could also be resolved by adding a few fleshy growths (maybe via lowering walls so you don't see them the first time you pass through) a little bit earlier in the caverns so the transition between themes doesn't seem so abrupt.

But it's quite reasonable to argue that there's such a thing as too much justification, and the fact that the exit is literally just beyond the borders of the screen in that shot could be taken as reason enough in itself.

Old Post 11-04-10 02:43 #
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darkreaver
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Hehehe, well, some of the fights are a bit tough, but I managed to beat the map without saves, so I figured if I could do that, many players will find it easy...so.

And daaaamn, I`m not looking forward to open up this map again and start fixing stuff. I`ve been postponing it because I`m so scared of what I might (will) see haha. I cant believe my own eyes when looking at some of your screenshots haha. Is it really that long since I made this? I`ll gladly admit there are many easy solutions in there, and that affects the looks.

And considering it was the second map I ever finished its fair to speculate in that me signing up for CC4 maybe was a bit of a premature decision :P

I`ve also considered dropping large portions of the map. Almost all of the outdoor area which you covered this time, but I dunno. I`ll probably just try to touch it up a few notches and rework some of the fights.

Thanks for a real thorough coverage by the way :P

Old Post 11-04-10 05:23 #
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darkreaver
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Ooook, so I`m reeeally having second thoughts about this map contribution.

The fact is that I was pretty noobish when I made this, and I have to admit; I have improved alot since then. It`s actually kinda embarrasing to look at it today. Its riddled with bad mapping decisions, bad texturing and the list goes on.

Of course I can "just fix it", but its really too much work. Tedious and annoying work.

So I`m thinking, well actually I have decided to cut away 50% of the map, and then polish up what is left of it. For those who have played/tested it; it means I`ll cut out basically everything after the point when you return to where the map starts out. The main outside/mountain areas that is.

This means that the map will be totally different. For example the monstercount will probably be cut by about 800 (!), and the playtime will be at least halved. It will still fit in E3 though.

I think this is for the better. The map will be significally better and most importantly; it will give me the enthusiasm I need to fix this map. It`s standing between doing these changes, or drop out of CC4.

So, yeah :)

Last edited by darkreaver on 03-13-11 at 20:39

Old Post 03-12-11 21:23 #
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RjY
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Yes, I thought this map looked decent but the gameplay was just too frustrating. Too often I would walk into some new area and be suddenly surrounded by dozens of popup monsters and have no cover or place to retreat to or even room to move. Furthermore little health availability meant a reload pretty much every time I took damage. Being artificially prevented from backtracking for useful resources I'd decided to save for later also didn't help. All in all it drove me nuts and I gave up trying to write a test report for it.

sh666beta.wad (May 31 2010) was an improvement on sh666.wad (March 4 2010) but it was still pretty annoying.

[ Why is this guy losered by the way? ]

Old Post 03-15-11 12:13 #
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Processingcontrol
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Edit: I guess I might have been being a dick myself posting this.

Last edited by Processingcontrol on 03-25-11 at 02:39

Old Post 03-15-11 20:54 #
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darkreaver
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Posts: 1880
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UPDATE

I have now begun my work on this new, and hopefully much better version of this map.

I`ve been on a deleting spree. IIRC the map was aprox 2800 sectors, well...after some deleting, it`s now 500 :) I also deleted ALL gameplay. Starting over 100% with that.

edit: I`ve done some more work on it. I`ve added about 200 sectors and I have 90% of the layout planned and drawn down on paper. It will not be a redux of the last version, it will be totally new.

Last edited by darkreaver on 06-01-11 at 14:10

Old Post 03-21-11 03:17 #
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darkreaver
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Things are going forward. Slow but steady.

Some new shots, but all are WIP.

http://i54.tinypic.com/2a9v0hx.png

http://i51.tinypic.com/2dir0qx.png

http://i55.tinypic.com/rw45g0.png

http://i53.tinypic.com/2yy60qt.png

Those who tested the last (crappy) version might recognize some areas, but hey, quite different eh? :)

Old Post 03-26-11 19:34 #
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DeathevokatioN
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Holy shit, that looks so awesome man.

Old Post 03-26-11 19:42 #
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darkreaver
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Thanks ;)

And YES, theres LOTS of brown colors and brown ashwall.

Old Post 03-26-11 19:46 #
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Christoph
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Looking seriously awesome - love the textures and layout!

Old Post 03-26-11 20:52 #
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MajorRawne
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This map looks amazing. I'm so excited about playing the finished product that I did a bit of wee.

Old Post 05-19-11 13:08 #
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darkreaver
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Thanks! :)

Been busy with some other projects, but yeah, I just had a new idea for this map yesterday, so soon I`m back to work :)

Old Post 05-19-11 19:07 #
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TheStiCat
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Brilliant architecture! xP

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Old Post 05-23-11 01:27 #
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darkreaver
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Thanks TheStiCat :)

Short update:

Layout is now 80% done. Yay!
All mechanics (doors, lifts, traps, whatnot) are now working.
Not 100% finished planning the gameplay, but I have most of it planned out.

Layout for those interested:

http://i54.tinypic.com/x6dl6u.jpg
It`s not that big anymore. I`d say medium to large.
Currently working on the north area. Going to add one final area to the north-west, where the exit will be.

Last edited by darkreaver on 06-01-11 at 15:11

Old Post 06-01-11 15:04 #
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darkreaver
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Okay, just a little update, because I want to.

The layout and details and whatever is 100% finished and gameplay is coming along nicely, currently at...70-80% finished I guess.

I encountered a few glitches in prboom+, so I have to try to figure out what the fuck is wrong (some walls not lowering, crushers not working etc, mainly voodoo-doll related).

Monster count will probably end up around 600 on UV, and the map will be difficult in general, so it should probably end up as map24-29 somewhere.

Once I figure out whats wrong with the map I`ll have it sent to the testers. Damn, finally!

OOOh, and I`m also considering changing the name of the map, because its not what it used to be anymore.

Old Post 07-22-11 13:00 #
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darkreaver
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Ok, I solved the voodoo-doll stuff, but I`m having trouble with some crushers. I use Boom action 12248. Walk over once, crusher, turbo speed.
It works in Skulltag but not in prboom+, anyone know why?

I need it to kill some monsters, and its very important.

edit: I figured it all out. Only the last few battles to be dealt with now, but right now I`m sick of the map so I`ll get back to it later

Last edited by darkreaver on 07-22-11 at 17:26

Old Post 07-22-11 14:14 #
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dannebubinga
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This is the reason why I'm going to play CC4 :)

Old Post 07-22-11 15:47 #
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jointritual
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I think Spiritual Holocaust is a great map name personally, I don't think you should change it!

Old Post 07-22-11 18:45 #
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darkreaver
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Ok I`ll keep the name.

I have sent the map to the testers. If anyone didnt get it, lemme know.

INFO:

I forgot to delete the 3D-cam-thing, aaaaand I also forgot to add damaging effect to the lava...lol. Doesnt matter that much anyway. Maybe the lava shouldt be damaging at all...might be better that way.
Also, it plays on map23

Last edited by darkreaver on 08-08-11 at 13:03

Old Post 07-28-11 16:51 #
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C30N9
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W...Wow.... The map.... Awesome!

Old Post 07-28-11 16:57 #
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[WH]-Wilou84
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Just playtested this monster.


darkreaver said:
[...] aaaaand I also forgot to add damaging effect to the lava...lol. Doesnt matter that much anyway. Maybe the lava shouldt be damaging at all...might be better that way.

Well it should, otherwise the player might get stuck near sector 1043 after falling from sector 920.
5% should be fine, the map is very hard already :p

This map is a masterpiece, even better than the previous version. Good job darkreaver !
The map feels less linear than it really is, and the gameplay is quite frantic all the way through. UV is not for the faint of heart.

Only things I could mention is the fact that the player is given enough time to escape sector 808 before the bars ( sector 1281 ) are closed. Maybe you'd want to avoid that.

Then there's this rocky structure near the Plasma Gun, I think the floor texture needs to be the same on both sectors.

Sector 208's floor texture doesn't really match its SUPP332 borders. Give it a metal texture maybe, and then a linedef action could easily change the floor texture back to RROCK13 when needed.

Sector 1334 and sector 1314 are both tagged as secret, it's not really necessary.

Aside from those minor nitpicks, I didn't notice any serious problem in your map.
Congrats, it will be more than welcome in CC4 !

Old Post 07-31-11 20:11 #
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Hirogen2
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darkreaver said:
I have sent the map to the testers. If anyone didnt get it, lemme know.


I seem to have been left out.

Old Post 07-31-11 20:54 #
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darkreaver
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Wilou: thanks alot! I will fix all those issues you mentioned :) How is health and ammo? I`m really having problems balancing it, I THINK. It works fine for me but I made the map and know it inside out.

Hirogen: PM sent :=)

Old Post 07-31-11 21:03 #
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[WH]-Wilou84
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Health / ammo are fine to me. :)

More feedback while I'm at it :
- The player could escape sector 14 after activating linedef 1993 before sector 486 can block his/her path. Once the player is out, there's no way back in.
It would be a nice idea to allow a well-timed voodoo doll to lower this sector after some time, so that the player can get the goodies.

- Those mnsters who appear in sector 1302 are too slow to teleport in. There's always a lonely Imp or two who take ages to spawn.
It may annoy some UV-Maxers.

- A Demon ( Thing 902 ) failed to teleport to sector 754, maybe because something was stepping on the teleport destination.
You should make a fool-proof teleporter here.

- Have the lava near the BFG9000 deal damage as well, otherwise the secret containing the radioactive suit won't be very useful. :p

Old Post 08-01-11 20:41 #
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darkreaver
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Thanks alot, I will improve upon those things :)

EDIT: all of Wilous points have been fixed (except for the sector 808/1281 thingie. Intentional), alongside with some monster block lines that have been removed. Some health added a few places.

I`m waiting for some more feedback so that I can optimize the map for UV before I go on and add lower difficulties

Also, even though the map is linear, it has quite a few different ways/tricks for speedrunning :)

Last edited by darkreaver on 08-08-11 at 22:22

Old Post 08-02-11 01:33 #
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darkreaver
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Useless bump:

The testers I have heard from so far are: [WH]-Wilou84, Snakes, Hirogen2 and MegaDoomer.

I`ll fix all errors found by them, add skill settings and genrally polish up the map a little bit, then resend the second beta to all testers. Then I`ll fix all eventual bugs reported and then submit the map to TGH as finished.

The sooner the better, I`d really hate having to go back and fix stuff in a map I havent touched in 6 months or something.

Old Post 08-27-11 19:23 #
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MegaDoomer
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@darkreaver - sent you my final feedback on the map via PM.

Old Post 08-28-11 13:32 #
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