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edoanimus
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Firstly, I don't mean to poach the MAP32 slot, but it's my understanding that anyone can submit maps until they're certified complete, correct?

No hard feelings, Macro11_1!

About the level:
It is called Mutare which is Latin for "to change". The gimmick in this level is that the architecture of the base is constantly shifting. Each time you enter a new area, new things appear or shift, cover rises, maybe a wall falls down etc. This is one of my favorite things about the vanilla Doom engine that gets under used in my opinion.

As for my goals with this map there are 4:

1. Make the progression of the level constantly curve back in on itself.
2. Give the player different experiences based on which areas they go to first (i.e. a tight corridor fight might be a sniping session if approached from a different angle)
3. Use heterogenous monster mobs for added infighting awesomeness (my other favorite thing about the Doom engine)
4. Use Archviles responsibly, nobody likes a 1,000 Archy BBQ (well, not me anyway).

The color scheme I chose is green and blue.

Progress: 100% Map, 100% Diffculty Settings, 100% Co-op

I've finished the map and applied the UV monsters, and finished applying the Co-op only parts of the level as well as co-op enemies. It is a long slaughter map (in the end) with about 600 monsters depending on if you take care of the Arch-viles tactfully. It is currently optimized for a pistol start, the introductions of the weapons are part of the flow of the level.

Some screens (links only, I lurk too often to post attachments):

http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/.../Mutare_Map.png
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/...Mutare_SS01.png
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/...Mutare_SS02.png
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/...Mutare_SS03.png
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/...Mutare_SS04.png
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/...Mutare_SS05.png
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/...Mutare_SS06.png
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/...Mutare_SS07.png
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/...Mutare_SS08.png
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/...Mutare_SS09.png
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/...Mutare_SS10.png
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/...Mutare_SS11.png

Last edited by edoanimus on 05-07-10 at 10:17

Old Post 04-29-10 09:56 #
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printz
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Awesome.

Old Post 04-29-10 13:32 #
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Philnemba
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The last 2 screenshots looks great.

Old Post 04-29-10 16:31 #
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edoanimus
Warming Up


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Currently working on difficulty levels: Easy Mode is about done

The level flow is based on the reintroduction of all the weapons (If this ends up being MAP32, I'd like to convince the MAP31 author to make the secret exit a death trap). The weapon order, though, is going to be completely different for each skill level.

Thematically, the level starts at an E1 style hexagon floor tech base, then adds some E2 style green marble and stone, then finally ends with a bloody courtyard in a sea of blood - so a microcosm of the Doom experience, which is also why I think a MAP31 deathtrap would be good. Your Space Marine is respawned in this small version of Doom 2, then comes out of it to MAP16 fully armed (I think I'll add a last minute Megasphere to each difficuly).

Here's two dumb questions:

1. The final CC4 will still have the stock Doom 2 textures, right? In other words, the resource WAD just adds some (I like the stock textures for this map).

2. Should I submit the level to TGH now or after testing is complete? Basically, is the testing phase a final quality check on a submitted level, or a final step before submission?

Old Post 04-29-10 16:51 #
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Philnemba
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edoanimus said:
Here's two dumb questions:

1. The final CC4 will still have the stock Doom 2 textures, right? In other words, the resource WAD just adds some (I like the stock textures for this map).

2. Should I submit the level to TGH now or after testing is complete? Basically, is the testing phase a final quality check on a submitted level, or a final step before submission?



1. Yes the stock textures will still be there.
2. According to The Green Herring your suppose to sent your wad to every playtester listed in the first post of the sign-up thread once it is complete.

Old Post 04-29-10 17:17 #
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Use3D
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Interesting look

Old Post 04-29-10 22:47 #
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[WH]-Wilou84
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Interesting concept :)

Stock textures are cool, hopefully it won't look too misplaced among the other maps ( which will probably use a lot of CC4tex's contents ).

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Old Post 04-29-10 23:28 #
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Malinku
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well I know for a fact that this map is 100% different from map 31 (my map)

and it looks nice but at some point it kinda looks a tad cramped due to ceiling heights.

Old Post 04-30-10 01:11 #
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edoanimus
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I know the stock textures may seem misplaced, but I hope the theme comes across (a sort of visual retelling of the Doom 2 we all know and love).

As for the cramped nature, that's part of the point, the tight corridors change into wide corridors, then into courtyards, then at the end almost the whole map is open and only a few walls remain (A big inspiration was that MAP07 where the whole map opens up, I think it was...NDCP2?...I forget).

Here's some shots:
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/...Mutare_SS12.png
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/...tare_SS12-2.png

The first shot is from the first area, the second shot is when you come back through the first area towards the end of the map. The whole map works on this concept.

Old Post 04-30-10 03:12 #
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TheMionicDonut
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CChest_3 map07 seems to fit the bill that you described.

*sigh* Why isnt Mista_T on this project too :[

Old Post 04-30-10 03:32 #
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edoanimus
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That's right, CChest 3, good ol' Simple Complex, I really liked that level's ending!

Old Post 04-30-10 04:05 #
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Macro11_1
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HEY! :(!!!

Well, I guess we will have to find out in the end which map stays in slot 32. (It'll probably be yours because mine has no "Gimic" per-say.)

Jeez, I need to update my thread soon.

Looking good so far though man! I like the architecture, but Hopefully (speaking for my self here) it's not just a slaughter map. I happen to not like those types of maps.

Turn the heat on up, and lets do this! :)

Old Post 04-30-10 05:42 #
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edoanimus
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Posts: 13
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Hey Macro11_1!

I know what you mean by not liking slaughter maps, and although the monster count is high it isn't a traditional invulnerability/BFG marathon. I like playing slaughter maps only when cheating (boo!) usually just because I don't have the time to memorize where all the Cell packs are and perfect my Cybie tango.

Mutare has a whole bunch of environmental traps as well (for the enemies, there aren't any traps for the player unless you back into a crusher you started on accident). The last area has what I'd call a Dionaea trap that keeps teleporting victims to their slow crushing deaths (again, monsters not the player).

Here's a screenshot of the trap after it's ensnared a Cyberdemon:
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/...Mutare_SS13.png

I just finished the difficulty levels and will send the level off for testing next. The monster counts are about the same on easy, they're just easier monsters (BFG blasting about fifty former humans always makes you feel like a badass).

Old Post 04-30-10 08:35 #
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MajorRawne
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edoanimus said:The gimmick in this level is that the architecture of the base is constantly shifting. Each time you enter a new area, new things appear or shift, cover rises, maybe a wall falls down etc. This is one of my favorite things about the vanilla Doom engine that gets under used in my opinion.

As for my goals with this map there are 4:

1. Make the progression of the level constantly curve back in on itself.
2. Give the player different experiences based on which areas they go to first (i.e. a tight corridor fight might be a sniping session if approached from a different angle)
3. Use heterogenous monster mobs for added infighting awesomeness (my other favorite thing about the Doom engine)
4. Use Archviles responsibly, nobody likes a 1,000 Archy BBQ (well, not me anyway).


You just became my hero.

Looking forward to playing the wad!

Old Post 05-01-10 16:44 #
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edoanimus
Warming Up


Posts: 13
Registered: 11-08


I've finished the final optimizations for the gameplay on the map and added full co-op support. I have some nifty screenshots to go along with the following points:

For co-op play the players are split into two teams and warped out to two different points in the level, where they will meet in the middle to face the final onslaught of demons in the outer courtyard. The co-op starting area is designed so that any of the four players can choose one of the paths, but can't go back unless they respawn (by means of a teleporter and a one-way door.

This is a view of the co-op only area:
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/...MutareSS_18.png

This is a view from the new starting point:
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/...MutareSS_14.png

I also added a new broken brick and stone stairwell that connects the (also newly added) bloodfalls with the hallways behind the rising squares area (the testers should know the location).

Here's a shot of the bloodfalls facade:
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/...MutareSS_15.png

Here's some shots of the new broken stairwell:
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/...MutareSS_16.png
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/...MutareSS_17.png

I also added a new secret (the computer area map) that reveals this guy on the map:
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/...MutareSS_20.png

That is just one of the two rather big easter eggs in the map.

Speaking of testers, Super Jamie has been really helpful with his (her?) suggestions and both my brother and I have done extensive testing. Since I haven't heard even a peep from the other nine or so testers, I'm going to move ahead without them. I have a final co-op testing session scheduled for Saturday, then I'll submit the map to TGH.

I tested the map to fit the following criteria:
-Are all monsters killable on all difficulty levels including co-op? Yes.
-Can all secrets be found? Yes.
-Are all monsters unstuck on all difficulty levels? Yes.
-Can you beat the level from a pistol start on ITYTD, HMP and UV and get 100% kills and secrets without saving? Yes.

Approximate level completion time on UV, played cautiously is 35-40 minutes. Speeding through on ITYTD, I've cleared the level in about 5:30.

I've been playing and tweaking this obsessively over the last few weeks, because I want to make sure that my debut map is worthy of the Community Chest pedigree.

Old Post 05-07-10 10:33 #
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[WH]-Wilou84
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http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/...MutareSS_16.png
Texture alignment on this green marble brickwork looks awkward here, imho.

Aside from that, cool stuff you have there :>

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Old Post 05-07-10 10:52 #
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edoanimus
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Fixed, thanks for the tip. I moved past this part earlier and didn't bother touching it up because I figured, "The bricks are broken anyways". Looks a bit cleaner now.

Old Post 05-07-10 11:27 #
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Dutch Doomer
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Its probably just me, but it kinda looks like an oblige map. It does look interesting, and from the looks of it gameplay will be pretty challenging.

Old Post 05-07-10 13:43 #
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TheMionicDonut
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OOOH i want to see!

Old Post 05-07-10 22:28 #
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MTrop
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TheMionicDonut said:
CChest_3 map07 seems to fit the bill that you described.

*sigh* Why isnt Mista_T on this project too :[



Because I am busy with other things.

Some Doom things.

Some Java things.

But not necessarily mixed.

Old Post 05-20-10 22:49 #
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TheMionicDonut
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Ah fair enough. Be sure to let us know when any of those things show up :D

Old Post 05-21-10 06:52 #
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tehdrunkdemon
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Screenshots look good!

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Old Post 07-04-10 17:00 #
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justanotherfool
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Finally checked this one out.

I've been putting it off somewhat due to the high monster count, and your early description of this map as a slaughter map, which I tend not to like. Fortunately this isn't your typical slaughter map, and only the last fight is remotely close to the typical bfg and cyb spamfest of a slaughter map.

I'm also an admirer of "Simple Complex", and I agree that lowering and raising parts of the map to change its layout is under used, so I was generally delighted by the way that you made use of it in your map. I was really taken by surprise a couple of times, and I've never seen such dynamic terrain in a doom map before. Seemed like some new part of the level was opening out with every couple of steps. The rising platforms for cover were a nice touch, and certainly something one doesn't often see.

Monster placement seemed interesting and a good variety of monsters were used, although I think you could tone down the troopers a bit, replace them with some sergeants, which are more entertaining :). As you mentioned, you used archviles carefully and didn't mindlessly place them everywhere as seems to be the case in far too many high monster-count maps. They were placed where they'd be able to do a lot of resurrecting rather than just being used for their hitscan attacks.

So in terms of gameplay and layout this map looks really promising. Unfortunately I'm of the view that aesthetically it leaves a lot to be desired. The amount of detailing isn't too bad, most (but not all) areas of the map avoid blandness. However, the texturing was not at all to my liking.

Thematically there is far too much variation. I wasn't really sure what you were thinking alternating the marble and wood and metal so haphazardly, but now that I've read your posts I see that you were trying to blend the E1, E2 and E3 themes from the original doom. I don't think this is a good idea. It might work in a more conventional linear map where you start in an E1 section, progress to E2 and finish in the E3 area but the sections are completely separate. Here, though, the map almost becomes pretty much one big room with these clashing texture themes that can't possibly fit together. It ends up looking rather messy. I don't think you need to do anything unconventional with regards to the texturing, the gameplay and layout are unique enough as it stands. I'd suggest picking whatever theme you like best and more or less sticking to it. When you've got marble rooms opening out of what was a metal base there's just no sense of coherency.

I think that the choice of textures in general was lacking, even without the clashes I mentioned. This becomes apparent a long time before the map starts to open out. It's hard to describe exactly what I mean in words alone, so I provided some screenshots.

http://yfrog.com/eudoom131p

What was apparent here (throughout most of the level, in fact) was how much clashing there was between your wall textures and your flats. In this screenshot, the ceiling and floor segments have stone flats, yet the sides of them are not made of stone. This looks terrible. You can see examples of this kind of thing throughout the rest of the map. I have another example...

http://yfrog.com/i3doom132p

Here we have a building with STARTAN walls, but inside it is a rock ceiling! STARTAN doesn't go that well with the sandy brick textures you've used in the screenshot either. I really think you need to go and look at some good maps to get an idea of what kind of textures fit together.

http://yfrog.com/0udoom134p

Finally...
Look at the upper half of this shot. Marble and chequered metal?!
You also have blood waterfalls that seem to appear from nowhere. There should be a pool of blood at the top otherwise this looks amateurish.Same goes for the side textures at the bottom of the pool.

Perhaps I didn't provide a very good explanation of what exactly is wrong with your texturing, but I'm hoping the screenshots will show you what I mean. There are clashes and inconsistencies like this throughout the level, and I could spend all day trying to point them all out, so I'll hope I've made myself clear.

To be honest, it surprises me that more people didn't make this point based on the texturing in the screenshots you posted. As far as I'm concerned, dutch devil was spot on when he said that this looks like an oblige map (not saying it is, obviously).

I also spotted a lot of texture misalignments, so be sure to watch out for those.

There are a lot of other smaller things I could comment on, but I don't think it's worthwhile until you've addressed the big issues I raised here.

Think of the map as being a rough diamond. It may shine brightly indeed when the project is finished, but first it requires a lot of polishing. I really think that if you make the right adjustments this will be a great addition to CC4. No hard feelings about what might seem like a harsh review, I hope.

Thank you for checking for 100% kills and secrets, by the way. Makes my job a little easier :)

That reminds me. You say you didn't notice any stuck monsters. When I played, I noticed a few. Both (at least I think there were only two) masterminds got stuck on enemies for a while, some mancubi and other large monsters, and some cybs at the end (although it looks like that might have been intentional on your part after they went through those teleporters). I was playing in prboom-plus 2.5.0.1, I believe.

EDIT: One more thing. I think your map would benefit from more light variation if you can find a way to put some in there. Obviously it's hard with the way the maps open out, but more variance in light levels would help to make things a little less drab.

Last edited by justanotherfool on 07-13-10 at 17:56

Old Post 07-13-10 17:47 #
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