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C30N9
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Thanks! I'll add all of these on a TODO list, plus I'll remove the maze and recreate a fully new room. So I guess I have to change the MIDI because Processingcontrol finished his map first.

On the second map note: I actually subscribed because the project is going slowly IMO, plus I sometimes post fast without thinking much :P. Or maybe I share it with another one? I still didn't put any plan on it. I'll work at this at first until you get impressed %80-90 :).

Old Post 03-20-11 19:22 #
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[WH]-Wilou84
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Thanks for your understanding. :)
I'll be glad to test any update you have.

Old Post 03-20-11 19:32 #
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C30N9
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Two questions:

1- Did my map had a gameplay issue (was it too linear)?

Always my mapping style is linear and making revisited areas (you can see this completely in my map, for example the exit is near the start), before I map I was afraid to do that for getting really bad reviews, but after I saw MAP06 from CC3 which it clearly has the same gameplay as this, I had the step.

2- "your map needs more consistency" "your map lacks of consistency"
I hear that a lot, but sometimes I don't understand what is the actual meaning of this about mapping, can you explain?

Old Post 03-20-11 21:40 #
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[WH]-Wilou84
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1-Well, having gameplay issues and being too linear are two different things actually, and sadly I think your map has both.
Having the player revisit areas and open new paths in them is already a good start. What you need is to let the player explore your map a bit more. You don't want to quickly block the player with locked doors. Instead, push your locked doors further in the level.

Let's take an example from your map.
The red door is right near the start area, and the player has only one way out : cross the structure and reach the Super Shotgun.
Now let's imagine the red door would be a regular, unlocked door, leading to other areas which would eventually lead to the red door. You'd still have the same purpose ( the player would still have to go back and find the red key in the standard map ) but the difference is that he's given a choice, or at least the illusion of a choice.
I don't know if it's clear enough, but basically what you have to do is push your locked doors futher in your maps, instead of straight in the player's view.
Of course you need a good balance, you don't want to confuse the player as well.

I suggest having a look at an example of a very good non-linear map ( e.g. Gusta's "Predatorium", Plutonia 2 map 16 if I recall properly ). Pay attention at how the player is given an impression of freedom despite still having keys to find.

Other ideas to "de-linearize" your map would be to put weapons in optional areas instead of giving them on the main path one after another.
You could also study many Speed of Doom maps ( e.g. 27, 14, 29... ) which let the player get some of the keys in no particular order and gather them at an ending point or something.

Hope that helps. :)
Oh and your map being linear doesn't mean your map is bad. It's just part of the balance you have to find.

On the gameplay issue, yeah, I forgot to mention that your map has a fair share of backtracking. It wouldn't be a problem if new monsters would teleport in ( or new areas would open like in Knee-Deep in the Dead ), but sadly it's not the case here.

2-In your map, there's quite a few different texturing themes. Sometimes, those themes blend well together, sometimes they don't.
Take a look a Deus Vult II map 21. There are many styles in there, according to the place you're in ( the library, the flaming serpent mouth, the crypts... ), but here they always revolve on the same ideas and colors ( red and grey/black, mostly ). Had the library been decorated with purple flames ( instead of red ones ), consistency would've been ruined.
Hopefully this is clear enough. :p

Old Post 03-21-11 01:07 #
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justanotherfool
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I have a few things to add to Wilou's assessment of your map, though it must be said I'm a *lot* more pedantic than most.

- Wilou already commented on some of your transitions from one theme to another, but I think it needs to be emphasised. In both shots below, two clashing textures are placed together and the alignment of said textures is not at all clean. Ideally you need to make choices of textures that flow into each other.

Worse still, the step sector that's between the opening room and the hallway isn't textured consistently. Its side walls are dark black, its floor and ceiling green, and its upper and lower walls green too.

Even if the step textures had been better chosen, they're cut off in a way that isn't particularly pleasant to look at. That's why the game has specific textures for 8 or 16 unit steps, because the other textures are often (but not always) ill-suited for this.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/651...125200.png.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/651...125221.png.html

- This is a bit more pedantic, but I don't like the red light texture being used on the walls containing this red key door. They don't fit very well with the standard red key stripes or the surrounding wall and floor, to my eyes. They're also not consistent with how the other key doors were handled in the level. If you want to mark this particular door as distinct because it's the exit door, exit signs might be a better way of doing so.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/651...125504.png.html

- This transition seems a bit better, since you at least used a dividing texture to separate the two different themes, but I feel like it might be better if you changed the ceiling and floor of the 'dividing sector' to have a similar metallic texturing to the walls. That would also require you to change the bottom and top step textures so they're consistent with the floor and ceiling textures adjacent to them, which is not currently the case. I also think the hallway in the screenshot would benefit greatly from ceiling and/or wall lights, since it looks fairly drab due to the particular shade of grey that's been used.

From this angle it's also apparent that the sector leading into the opening room cuts off the wall texture (at the top) in an extremely awkward looking way, so I'm thinking you should make the entire top, bottom and sides of that opening of a totally different texture to avoid this. These are the kind of things you have to think carefully about for every area in the map. Currently you don't seem to have that attention to detail with regards to texturing, but it will come with practice.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/651...133759.png.html

- The light textures here look absolutely terrible since they clash with the much lighter texture used on the sides of the fixture, which doesn't even look like a metal texture. Consistency with texture choices is important, you can't just put two textures of completely different textures side by side on the same surface if you want it to look believable.

I also note that the bottoms of those hanging computer terminals are a light brown for some reason. They should be the same colour as the rest of the terminal.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/651...133810.png.html

- These two shots illustrate the same fundamental issue. When you have two separate walls or a wall and a floor (both with the same texture) directly adjacent to each other, it's difficult to get the alignment such that the surfaces 'flow into each other'. If you get it a bit wrong, as in both of these screenshots, it looks pretty bad. The way to get around this is to add a 'buffer'. That is, put another sector between where the two surfaces meet, and make sure you texture it in a way that doesn't clash with the other texture.

The second screenshot also shows something I've only just noticed and can't believe I didn't spot until now. The backs of the hanging down computers are textured with bricks. This is your fundamental problem. You've yet to grasp fully the principles of proper texturing. It isn't the only problem with the map, but it's the biggest, in my view.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...140334.png.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...140353.png.html

- I wonder if you've ever played a PWAD made in 1994? One thing you'll often see from mappers around that time is the strange compulsion to fit every possible theme imaginable in their map somewhere, even when this is completely inappropriate. This is a flaw that tends to be found in inexperienced mappers who feel the need to make the biggest and best map that does everything at once, and subsequently you get a disjointed mess that should never have left the hard-drive of the mapper in question. This map also seems to suffer from this tendency (though to nowhere near the degree of some maps I've seen), and it's quite visible in this hallway, where you suddenly have three sectors with completely different texture schemes, ones that don't fit well together. Just look at the walls in the below screenshots. Then look at the ceilings. Surely you would have to agree with me that there are a lot of clashing textures here. I don't even know why you felt the need to go for such a dramatic combination of textures. You added transitioning metal supports to the walls, but they don't in any way improve matters, mostly because the ceilings are still an absolute mess. Please, try to be more constrained in your use of textures. As Wilou said, experienced mappers don't vary the colours of their rooms too much at once. They also generally tend to stick to a handful of themes throughout the map, and use tasteful floor/ceiling variation, wall detailing, light variation and complex architecture to create coherent maps.

Apart from the texturing, the corridor is too sharp and too bare. Although it's hard to create curves in the doom engine, you'll find that you can approximate them by splitting the linedefs to get more vertices. I think your map would look better with fewer sharp edges and more curved ones in it.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...140422.png.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...140415.png.html

- I didn't like the lifts setup you have going in this room. It seemed like pointless padding to make a small room feel bigger than it actually is, and it didn't succeed too well at that in my case. Not too sure what I would do with it instead, though.

It was minimalistic in looks, but not bad looking, although the green texture seemed kind of out of place, and I didn't much care for the scrolling texture on the platform with the shotgunners.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...140529.png.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...140527.png.html

- This ties in to what Wilou said earlier about the linearity of the map. These two doors are right next to each other, making the layout a little bit too straightforward. Maybe you should add another wing to this area holding the yellow key door. I'm not saying that placing two doors right next to each other like this is *always* a bad idea, but it is indicative of the too simple nature of this map.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...140554.png.html

- Again I have the impression that the shift between the two themes is far too abrupt. Also this 'outdoors' area is just another indoors room with F_SKY, because it's just a boxy room with no additional sectors at the edges allowing you to look further outdoors. Consider making this wall a rampart with battlements and towers or some such. It might make the map feel as though it extends farther than it actually does.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...155048.png.html

- You're definitely going in the right direction with this room. There's some floor and ceiling variation and some wall detailing in the form of the corner supports and the fountains.

As Wilou has already mentioned, the room is let down by the texturing. The silver support texture is extremely ill-fitting, but I also think that light texture on the ceiling should be changed. Not only does it get cut off by the rest of the ceiling in parts, the colour is out of place. It also has such a simple and repetitive pattern that it's probably best used on very small expanses of ceiling. I don't like the bricks for the ceiling either, their colour seems out of place.

This area could look substantially better if you'd make this pool of slime flow out into the outside pool using some river sectors. Currently there is sludge flowing in, but it apparently never leaves, nor does the level of the pond change.

I also agree with Wilou that the animated textures here look out of place.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...155107.png.html

- Again, I don't like the ceiling flat, but the worst thing about this room is the scrolling green texture which looks out of place and as if it had been put there solely because you had no idea what else to do there.

The shape of the corridor is also incredibly weird, and not in a good way. Maybe you intended that outcropping of wall there to shelter the player from the attack of the archvile, but I think most players are going to be resourceful enough to duck back into the previous room when required, so there's no real reason for this irregular eyesore.

The texture on the side supports is also not one I would have used (it was evidently intended for shorter steps or walls) and it clashes with the flats adjacent to it as well.

Finally, I should say that I do like the intention of looping back on the main part of the level to prevent backtracking with the extra blue key door, since it makes the level feel more interconnected, but the map isn't big enough to fully benefit from this. The archvile trap is nice, but it seems to hinge on players not sniping the archies through the bars, something which is very easily done with the SSG.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...155156.png.html

- This is quite a nitpicky suggestion, but I've always thought lowered bars look better when they don't extend entirely into the ground, but remain, say, 8 units above it. Apart from that, this little corridor looks pretty good.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...155314.png.html

- Why is the button here recessed so far back into the wall? It looks extremely strange to my eyes. I don't like the light texture being used on the inner recess here either, and the switch texture itself is not the best one available, I think.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...155341.png.html

Alright, at this point I'm starting to realise that if I try to point out everything I find objectionable in the map I'll be sitting here for days, so I'm going to take things a little faster and point out mostly the more glaring problems. Don't assume that just because I didn't mention something I think it didn't need improving. I can only hope that you'll take the general thrust of my comments and be able to look at your map with detachment from there.

- Again that horrible ceiling texture :/
Also, the way the light runs directly over the bottom step looks a little weird. This can be solved by moving the light forward by a few units so there's a clear break between the line and the step.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...162434.png.html

- This transition really needs work. Not at all convincing at the moment. Textures getting cut off, no buffer, etc...
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...162445.png.html

- The edges here feel too sharp, and there's not enough detail. Try adding some ceiling borders or something.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...162453.png.html

- I like the detailing here, but surely you can see the alignment of the textures on this ascending step is completely inadequate?
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...162500.png.html

- This screen is badly aligned. The actual readings certainly need to be lower down on the panel. Also, it might have looked better stationary. Especially later on in the map, I feel you get too carried away with scrolling textures.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...162509.png.html

- I see the effect you were going for with the bars on the side walls of the lift, but it looks pretty goofy to me in practice.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...162532.png.html

- Very unconvincing use of textures transitioning to the cave area. Why would the sides of that doorway be metal when the material around it is clearly composed of rock? Completely 2D strips of metal would have had to have been bolted directly onto the rock. Maybe the doorway should be made of rock instead?

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...162616.png.html

- The same points apply here as above regarding the texture use as you segue into the cave area. The door is also way too thick, and despite having a *lot* of lights in this room at no point does the lighting level differ from that of the rest of the cavern. Come to think of it, how can the cavern be so well-lit when there are no gaps leading to the outside and no lights? It should be pretty dark.

The gameplay in this area is also unsatisfying. Just a few easily taken down heavy damage dealers. I would add some weaker monsters to the fray and position them awkwardly for the player.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...162633.png.html

- I suppose at least here you tried to create the illusion that the river extends further than it actually does, but it looks bad because of the awkward way the grate's aligned (the hole is clearly not big enough).
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...162722.png.html

- When I referred to you getting carried away by the scrolling textures, this was what I meant. It looks silly, (they scroll really fast) and this room would look a lot nicer if the lights were entirely still.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...162740.png.html

- I agree with everything Wilou said about this room, but I must also wonder why there's armour here. There was a poorly hidden suit of mega-armour just a couple of rooms ago and no real resistance in the meantime.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...162750.png.html

- The texture on the bottom of the door itself (not the floor of the door sector, the ceiling) is ill-fitting. Also, the blue skulls get cut off by the floor and look bad. It's good that you introduced a different floor for the buffer sector to transition more cleanly, although maybe that isn't the best texture. Certainly a step in the right direction.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...162832.png.html

- The ceiling texture doesn't work because it appears to have a circle of light on it, maybe it was intended for being placed above those torch sprites in the original doom. Here, there is no such light source. Also, the top and bottom of the recessed sectors should not be blue.

The corridor as a whole feels like unnecessary padding. It winds around for a bit before it goes anywhere, and its theme is nothing like those of the surrounding areas.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...162854.png.html

- I think the texture choice here is terrible. SHAWN should not be used on such a scale and it doesn't match well with the other major texture used here. Again this all feels very linear. We can see a door but can't open it yet, so there's really only way to go. At least add some optional side rooms with the occasional power-up.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...162925.png.html
URL]

- Again the theme shifts too drastically. And why on earth does the pipe scroll?!
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...163014.png.html

- The SHAWN/flesh wall combination looks a lot worse to me than it must to you, and the transition is virtually non-existent. I'm left to wonder why there would be flesh walls here all of a sudden, when they haven't even been hinted at so far in the rest of the map. Your detailing in this area looks like a rather crude attempt at train tracks, even though it must have been something entirely different.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...163018.png.html

- You're obviously trying to convey a broken down techbase here, but it really doesn't work. Texturing the whole (almost entirely flat) wall with SHAWN1, one of the dullest and ugliest stock textures, was not a good choice. Although I can see slime flowing into the room through that hole in the ceiling, I don't see where it leaves, and I don't see how it reached that piece of floor to the right that is elevated higher than it but still has slime on it. How did the floor get to be arranged like this? Surely the slime must flow down into the less elevated sectors and hence vacate the more elevated ones and level the floor out? If the slime is really just trailing over a pre-existing floor, I don't see why the floor should be arranged in shelves as it is. Where did these bits of rock and soil that aren't the same colour as the ceiling come from? Why are there random computer panels high in the otherwise sleek, featureless wall? None of this really makes sense, and it's too artificial by far.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...172506.png.html

- If the base is really broken down as suggested by the room I've just discussed, which looks as though you intended us to think an earthquake had hit, then how come these holes in the wall which lead into seemingly natural caverns are almost completely regular?! One of them is a perfect rectangle! What are those weird bits of rock in the walls of the caves? Why does the right cave have a semi-walkway of SHAWN1 when the wall and ceiling are almost entirely dirt? The transitions between dirt and metal are, needless to say, not well handled, and the level has lost whatever internal consistency it had by this point.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...172520.png.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...172559.png.html

- I'm not sure why what seems to be a natural cave should go back to a disjointed room in the base again. That's really how the map seems to me by this point, just a bunch of disjointed rooms with no real logical connection, no consistency, just the whim of a not particularly careful mapper.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...172604.png.html

- And then we have this twisted excuse for a corridor, which is reminding me of a lot of 1994 maps with its extremely thin walls, extremely high ceiling, monotonous texturing, complete lack of detailing, sharp crescent shape that you'd certainly not find in any humanly built edifice and incongruous looking lift at the end because the crescent has apparently led us somewhat further down than we're supposed to be.

Wilou spoke of your map lacking consistency, and this is a prime example. A good mapper realises that rooms of this horrible quality drag the rest of the map down in the mind of its player by association, and so endeavours to ensure that there are no such rooms. Some rooms are decent, but they're dragged down by others which are completely mediocre or worse.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...172657.png.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...172707.png.html

- Why do you feel the need to put more than one backpack in your map, more than one in the same room for that matter? It's another indicator of inexperience, since a more experienced mapper would have a good enough idea of which weapons will have a lot of ammo and which ones won't to place ammo individually. Very few maps that I would classify as good do this, even though it shouldn't have any bearing on the quality of the level, per se.

I also don't understand why those sectors are lit up, since the ceiling doesn't seem to be comprised of lights or gaps to the outside (though I admit it's hard to see the ceiling flats for sure).
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...172833.png.html

- Again, is there any reason why the sides of this metal platform are scrolling? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/652...172926.png.html

Well, it looks like I'm finally done. I realise I have been quite negative here, especially towards the end, but all I can say in my defence is that I was actually in a fairly good mood sitting down to test this and willing to be lenient with a mapper who hasn't released many levels to my knowledge. However, I've been sitting here for several hours, even with the decision to skip over some stuff, and my mood is pretty deflated now. That obviously doesn't help me to refrain from being too snippy and too critical, especially when a lot of these errors seem so glaring that I shouldn't have had to see them in the first place. But you do seem inexperienced, and I don't doubt that if you take at least some of the testers' criticism to heart you'll be able to improve the map considerably.

Overall, the map is let down by texture choices, lack of consistency regarding to theme, and at times detailing. It is, as Wilou said, maybe a little bit too linear, and could benefit from some branching paths and optional side areas here and there. A few of the worse rooms (like the maze, which I see you've decided to remove) should be done away with, and the rest of the map needs some fine-tuning.

Regarding gameplay, I feel there were too many bigger monsters and not enough small ones, and the fights seemed pretty insubstantial due to being composed of mostly small numbers of big monsters which were nevertheless easy to deal with because of the surplus of ammo available.

Didn't really encounter any bugs. I expect I'll have a clearer picture of the map after some improvements have been made, and I apologise if I repeated things that had already been said by Wilou and other testers.

Old Post 03-21-11 19:21 #
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C30N9
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Thanks for the review (I still didn't read it :P), but I see that you focused on texturing and appearance. I got plans on making the map non-linear, I'll change the exit with another big area which will be accessed from more than this door, add optional areas, remove the underground part and make another non-linear area there, the map at the end may needs all of the 6 keys, plus having a switch hunting, making the map much bigger and having the freedom of moving. Then I'll be focusing on the main texturing and other stuff you mentioned.

EDIT: READ! :P

Last edited by C30N9 on 03-21-11 at 20:05

Old Post 03-21-11 19:35 #
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C30N9
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Here is what I mean, an area accessed from three openings (actually four but two same area).

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/6975/nonlinear.png
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/...om201103212.png
http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/...m201103212q.png
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/...om201103212.png

Old Post 03-21-11 20:56 #
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C30N9
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I have got Anima's Zero review, but it wasn't much negative becuse of justanotherfool's cloud of negatives.

Anyway, I have choosed to turn the atmosphere into Plutonia (bricks, rocks, wood...). I'll post soon screenshots about the first area newly textured and post if you think it is too colorful or doesn't stick into one theme.

Old Post 03-22-11 14:31 #
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C30N9
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http://img852.imageshack.us/img852/...om201103221.png
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/...om201103221.png

From this picture, every brown texture will be changed to BRICKPL8 and every floor and ceiling will be changed to FLOOR7_1 that matches with the bricks. Detailing structure would be the panel flags and wood.

Old Post 03-22-11 17:08 #
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C30N9
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A bad thing to say, that I lost interest and there is no hope in improving it, for these reasons:

1- Adding non-linear areas on the map was good on a paper, but however the atmosphere would be random.

2- Some areas had a different themes in it making the map randomized, and using the white bricks was a bad idea.

However here is some solves here:

1- Fix every tester what did he mention: pushing the locked doors, focus on 4 themes for the map, rebuild awful areas... After that I send a final version without adding non-linear areas as above.

2- I send it to another one and then he adds, removes, improves... IOW making this map worked by 2 people.

3- Build a fully new map with the focus on the same theme, I have a not completed drawn map on a paper but that map really focuses on the same atmosphere.

4- Dump this map to the trash :P

Old Post 03-23-11 21:05 #
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[WH]-Wilou84
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C30N9 said:
3- Build a fully new map with the focus on the same theme, I have a not completed drawn map on a paper but that map really focuses on the same atmosphere.

Well, it depends on how much time you're ready to invest, but I think this is probably the best solution.
It will be beneficial in the long run.

I'm sure you could come up with something good using those white Plutonian bricks. :)

Old Post 03-23-11 22:25 #
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Processingcontrol
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Or you can take the best parts of this map, remove everything else, and start from there.

Old Post 03-23-11 23:58 #
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darkreaver
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Processingcontrol said:
Or you can take the best parts of this map, remove everything else, and start from there.


Exactly what I just did. It`s a good idea, and don`t hold back on the deleting :P If your`e in doubt about a section...delete it heheh

Old Post 03-24-11 01:03 #
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C30N9
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My new planned map is inspired by The Sewers MAP28 from Plutonia, maybe i'll use custom textures from that map with a brown slime as sewers, or from Realm MAP08, because the white bricks over there goes well with the water and the light flats at the underground part.

Proccessingcontrol - Well I don't know about that, lets see, the start area, the lifts, metal corridors with blue bars and the road before underground. All those together make a small map sadly.

Old Post 03-24-11 14:26 #
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C30N9
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Posts: 1327
Registered: 11-10


OK does anyone wants to share this map with me? As said above, I'll be focusing on a fully new map with being more careful next time.

Old Post 03-24-11 16:20 #
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Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Special Interest > Community Chest 4 > CC4 map E2 - Name to be decided

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