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The Green Herring
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[WH]-Wilou84 said:
Well, I wanted this door to require the Blue key, so that the player would have to take the lift to escape this area on the first time (s)he gets in ( after getting the Yellow key ) and thus would have to deal with the little fights up there.
In my mind the faster route would only be available in the end, to speed things up as the player goes for the exit.

I know you're trying to help and fix bugs and stuff, TGH, and your work is highly appreciated. But please please pretty please don't change what we level designers had in mind for our own maps ! :)
Maybe some things could seem obscure / of poor choice to you, such as my popping-up monsters on this very same map, but that's the way we wanted our maps to be... If not, I guess we wouldn't have submitted them in this state !

In any case, that's very nice to see that you're getting closer to finishing this. :)

That was suggested by RjY, which I should've mentioned. But thank you.

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Old Post Jun 20 2012 05:48 #
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[WH]-Wilou84
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Oh, haha, ok. My apologies to both of you.
Suggestions are more than welcome as always. :)

Old Post Jun 20 2012 06:39 #
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RjY
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[WH]-Wilou84 said:
Well, I wanted this door to require the Blue key, so that the player would have to take the lift to escape this area on the first time (s)he gets in ( after getting the Yellow key ) and thus would have to deal with the little fights up there.
Indeed, I realise this. But I still think requiring the blue key for the shortcut is far too late. It could come open any time *after* the player has dealt with the little fights up there. I just found it annoying because I had to take the long way out several times while searching the map at a point when I hadn't even seen the blue key. When I did have it and could open the shortcut I had nothing else left to do, and it was like, "well what was the point of that then?"

[WH]-Wilou84 said:
Oh, haha, ok. My apologies to both of you.
Suggestions are more than welcome as always. :)

Speaking of which I'm sorry this only came up now and that I never wrote a proper test report at the time you made/submitted the map. I must have missed it somehow. This was only one of several maps in the beta I hadn't seen before...

Old Post Jun 23 2012 16:56 #
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lupinx-Kassman
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The Green Herring said:
* Possible: Make the computer text at the start look more professional.

* Planned: Investigate black field that appears when you stand in certain spots on the height-transfer platform following the first "drop" after the first teleporting imps.
* Planned: In northern room, make the walkway not roll down like a curtain when you call it down as an elevator. (Because of the way it's built, this will necessitate altering the geometry in that room.)

I made some new graphics to replace any text screens found in my two maps. Also I know the solution to the black field in map 21, and can fix those two issues if you want me to. I may need the latest version of the map to do this though, so that the changes won't have to be merged. One of my new resources requires a small edit anyway.

As always, good luck! Looks like the light at the end of the tunnel is in view.

Old Post Jun 25 2012 12:26 #
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The Green Herring
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lupinx-Kassman has the current version of "Shaman's Device" now, so that he can make his intended bugfixes himself.

While he's doing that, I've added a changelog for "Crucifix Held Close." I was right to place the level that late...

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Old Post Jun 26 2012 02:16 #
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DeathevokatioN
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I'm looking forward to playing this and watching demos when it's finished, the lineup and map list looks very promising!

Old Post Jun 26 2012 21:37 #
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The Green Herring
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Added new changes for MAP20 and (especially) MAP21. It includes the edits lupinx-Kassman made to his level, and other bugfixes I made afterward.

Next stop: "Spiritual Holocaust."

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Old Post Jun 26 2012 22:31 #
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The Green Herring
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Added a changelog for "Spiritual Holocaust." At darkreaver's request, I ran every change through him before I made them.

One level left!

Meanwhile, I'm not sure about MAP01-11 yet, but here's what I've considered for the final map order of MAP12-32 (switched levels are underlined):

* MAP12: Nectar of the Gods by The Green Herring (formerly MAP13)
* MAP13: Viral Impant by James "Phobus" Cresswell (formerly MAP14)
* MAP14: Downriver by Processing Control (formerly MAP12)
* MAP15: Decomposition by Lord Z
* MAP31: Mortar Combat by Forty-Two
* MAP32: Mutare by Jeffrey Nordin
* MAP16: The Forgotten Base by Keeper of Jericho
* MAP17: Metastasize by Andy Leaver
* MAP18: Technoprison by Josh Sealy (formerly MAP19)
* MAP19: Suburbia by James "Jimmy" Paddock, detailed by Brett "Mechadon" Harrell (formerly MAP18)
* MAP20: Interstellar Sickness by lupinx-Kassman

* MAP21: Shaman's Device by lupinx-Kassman
* MAP22: Hell's Limits by C30N9
* MAP23: Melting Universe II by Walter Confalonieri
* MAP24: Nightmare Complex by Torn (formerly MAP25)
* MAP25: Reaper's Digest by Kristian Aro (formerly MAP26)
* MAP26: Vulcana II by Paul Corfiatis (formerly MAP27)
* MAP27: Detachment by Shadow Dweller (formerly MAP24)
* MAP28: Crucifix Held Close by William Huber
* MAP29: Spiritual Holocaust by Christian Lian
* MAP30: Ragnarok by Josh Sealy

Do the testers think this is a reasonable order?

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Last edited by The Green Herring on Jun 29 2012 at 05:46

Old Post Jun 29 2012 02:41 #
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Phobus
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Wooo! Go team TGH!

Old Post Jun 29 2012 07:44 #
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[WH]-Wilou84
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Great !

This map order seems good to me, although I have a few minor suggestions :
* I'd re-swap Joshy's Technoprison and Jimmy / Mechadon's Suburbia.
Granted, Suburbia is way larger than Technoprison, but Technoprison is harder and its theme / ending better fit with lupinx-Kassman's space maps.

* The case of Shadow Dweller's Detachment is a bit more complicated : difficulty-wise, it clearly has to be among the latest maps, but theme-wise it's more of a transition between techbases and Hell and would not fit among the "pure" hellish themes featured in maps 24 - 30.
I'd have it as map 22.
I like when themes are somehow coherent between maps, but then again, that's just me. "Non-coherent" theming might work just fine anyway ( e.g. Requiem map 30 ).

Current map order for maps 01 - 11 seems perfect imho :)

Old Post Jun 29 2012 13:18 #
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darkreaver
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It`s coming to an end! Really looking forward to checking out the maps here. I`m really curious :D

Old Post Jun 29 2012 15:25 #
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Snakes
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I agree about Map01-Map11, they're fine as-is. I do think Detachment's old placement worked better, though. Difficulty curve doesn't have to be one, smooth rising constant, as most megawads tend to mix in an abnormally tough map in with the others. In a way, it keeps a player on his/her toes.

As for the Suburbia/Technoprison arrangement, I think it's fine either way.

Old Post Jun 29 2012 16:35 #
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Alfonzo
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I second Wilou's reckoning that Detatchment should remain in the first half of e3 (the previous map24 position worked out well enough) for thematic consistency. Still important to note however is the pace of play between maps, and it's a little bit unfortunate that there isn't a nippy little level to diversify the maps toward the end, where it all slows down to an enjoyable crawl. Detatchment is actually one of the smaller maps in that segment, behind Hell's Limits.

Little else to say on the matter, really. The rest seems all well and good! I wouldn't object to seeing Techonprison and Suburbia switched back around, though.

Old Post Jun 29 2012 17:38 #
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walter confalonieri
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great

Old Post Jun 29 2012 18:52 #
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pcorf
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I like the map order because really its supposed to be from easiest to hardest. Map26 for Vulcana 2 is a good spot and I'm sure there are much much bigger levels in this project than mine.

And is it really possible to have difficulty settings for Nightmare only? .... I tried Vulcana 2 on Nightmare and 1 Arch vile attacked in the start room. But after his attack he telepored away.

Old Post Jun 30 2012 04:07 #
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RjY
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I suppose if you're putting larger maps later that order makes sense. If harder maps went later, then maybe a couple would be switched. It's fine either way. There's not enough in it to make a meaningful comparison.

I think the important thing was to avoid the essentially random order of previous cchests, with massive, two hour maps being immediately followed by ten minute quick blasts, or really nasty maps full of archviles being right at the start of the compilation. I believe this had been achieved already, regardless of any minor twiddling.

pcorf said:
Map26 for Vulcana 2 is a good spot and I'm sure there are much much bigger levels in this project than mine.
There were, once, but the really massive ones that took three hours to get through were edited down a lot or cut entirely ;-) (Some have since been released standalone; one appeared in a recent T/nC)

And is it really possible to have difficulty settings for Nightmare only? .... I tried Vulcana 2 on Nightmare and 1 Arch vile attacked in the start room. But after his attack he telepored away.
That's normal, in nightmare/-fast monsters can immediately attack, but in plain UV they will always move (and thus in your map's case, teleport) first.

Old Post Jun 30 2012 16:46 #
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Alfonzo
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RjY said:
I think the important thing was to avoid the essentially random order of previous cchests, with massive, two hour maps being immediately followed by ten minute quick blasts, or really nasty maps full of archviles being right at the start of the compilation. I believe this had been achieved already, regardless of any minor twiddling.

Changes that extreme do probably leave the player feeling a little misplaced and confused when moving into the next map. Oftentimes I end up carrying a gameplay mentality reserved for monster slaying marathons over into a smaller concept map and end up overseeing the map's appeal or design. But it remains that some diversity in pace of play is needed, I think, so that the appeal of those maps that are larger in size and do require the best part of an hour to play through are appreciated more. The best way to highlight a map's assets is to juxtapose it against dissimilar compositions... but not so dissimilar that the player cannot adjust immediately to the change of pace, scope, etc..

Old Post Jun 30 2012 18:02 #
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Gez
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The intermissions (at the end of levels 6, 11, and 20) are good places to put these abrupt changes, since the presence of the text screen does create a cut in the progression.

Old Post Jun 30 2012 18:23 #
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pcorf
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Both Vulcana levels. The one in WOS and its Cchest4 sequel. The aim is to have Arch Viles hidden behind the walls so the player can hear that growling sound but he cannot be quite sure when suddenly unexpected will happen. Also both maps have a Cyberdemon at the start .... the player sees it and then it suddenly disappears and he is thinking to himself, hmm .... I thought I saw a Cyberdemon and suddenly he gets the rudest shock of his life.

Also I thought you could only do 3 skill settings, Skill 1/2, Skill 3 and Skill 4/5. Perhaps there is a feature in Boom that allows for a Nightmare only setting that is not mentioned in Doom Builder 1.68 which I use instead of Doom Builder V2 and above because I have XP.

Old Post Jun 30 2012 18:30 #
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Phobus
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You can only do 3 skill settings, as you described. There's certainly no special handling for skill 1 or 5 in DB2 using Doom 2 or Boom settings.

Old Post Jun 30 2012 18:55 #
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The Green Herring
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I have added a changelog for "Ragnarok," as well as other notes in a few other levels ("Renewed Faith," "The Grotto," "Nectar of the Gods," "Viral Implant," "Downriver"). I also switched "Nectar of the Gods," "Viral Implant," and "Downriver" around so that they're now MAP12, MAP13, and MAP14, respectively.

I now have a second beta ready to send to the testers while I get to work on my Plans... but I won't do it until someone, anyone, sends me a large test report on the current beta! It seems I've been really outpacing you guys; I went through every level already but I haven't gotten much of anything! Please respond soon!

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Old Post Jul 2 2012 04:41 #
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The Green Herring
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And having received a report involving more than one map, I've PMed Beta Version 2 to all testers. Now to rest at ease until the next day, when I begin the process of completing my Plans and getting a finished beta together for public release. Hooray!

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Old Post Jul 2 2012 06:03 #
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Phobus
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Hooray! Indeed :)

Also, there's no change needed to the cyberdemons for UV speed runners - I've seen people bypass them on UV quickly enough to finish the map no problem.

Old Post Jul 2 2012 09:43 #
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The Green Herring
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I have just PMed Beta Version 2A to all testers. This one corrects a fatal error accidentally introduced into "Melting Universe II," in which a vital sector was mistakenly left untagged. You should now be able to complete this level. Carry on!

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Old Post Jul 2 2012 23:47 #
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blob1024
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cool, how long will the testers need to check it out fully?

Old Post Jul 3 2012 20:52 #
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j4rio
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lols, diablo 3 isn't treating you well? :>

To be honest, testing is the phase which *should* be the longest.

Old Post Jul 4 2012 11:33 #
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DooMer 4ever
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j4rio said:
To be honest, testing is the phase which *should* be the longest.

Still, no reason not to make it a public beta and let everyone who isn't willing to wait for the final release to join the testing. I've understood mainly bugfixing remains to be done rather than major gameplay changes etc. at this point anyway.

Yeah yeah, I'm writing this largely because I can't wait to get to play this :D

Old Post Jul 4 2012 14:31 #
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TheMionicDonut
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j4rio said:
lols, diablo 3 isn't treating you well? :>

To be honest, testing is the phase which *should* be the longest.

So, that pushes the official release off until roughly 2015...

Old Post Jul 4 2012 19:24 #
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The Green Herring
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I expect sizable playtesting reports, meaning at least a third of the WAD is covered by each one, by July 18.

I've meanwhile added to the changelogs of MAP01, MAP02, MAP04, and MAP05.

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Old Post Jul 5 2012 19:23 #
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j4rio
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TheMionicDonut said:
So, that pushes the official release off until roughly 2015...

That's the joke. :p

Old Post Jul 9 2012 21:35 #
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