My observations and (somewhat hostile) rant at id/Doom3/Quake4

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prower
Linguica fired me

Posts: 64
Registered: 05-00

Originally posted on Shacknews (http://www.shacknews.com/) by me, copy&pasted here.

Fuck this new Doom game, and fuck id. One little thing tipped me off on how this new Doom game will shape out - the AI "problem". What he's trying to say is that he wants the game to be exactly like the old Doom, but in a newer engine. GEE, WHERE HAVE WE HEARD THAT BEFORE? Oh, that's right, Quake/Quake2/Quake3. What the hell do they pay Graeme Divine for, to sit around and think "let's make one of our old games in a new engine!"? He says AI is lagging behind - I don't fucking buy it. Half-Life had excellent AI by most anyone's standards. Thief 2 had great AI. Deus Ex had some good AI. I don't buy that technology is preventing Carmack from making the Doom 3 enemies more than mindless drones - it sounds more like he's afraid to change the original Doom at all.

id has always been a company afraid of innovation since Romero and Tom Hall left. Romero and Hall were the dreamers at id, noted by Romero's original concept for Quake 1 (which ended up having shitty single player) and Tom Hall's "Doom Bible". They also proved how innovative they were with their respective Ion Storm projects. Daikatana was shitty, but it had some good ideas, just that they were very poorly implemented... then again, it had some bad ideas. If Romero weren't so busy getting those $900 chairs in his office, maybe he could've actually played the game and realized that save gems aren't any fun in an FPS. Anachronox just kicks ass and is probably the only recent console-style RPG to hit the computer screen since FF7/8 for PC were released.

Quake 4. Well, it's being made by Raven, aka "the company that puts quality content into id's engines", so I don't have much to worry about there. I will just point out, however, that it looks like what id is trying to do with this whole separation thing is prove their worth. They are trying to prove that they can still make an SP game with Doom3, they are trying to keep the pro gamers happy with Quake 4, and they are trying to prove that "hey, we're innovative! We don't just rehash our old games!" with the unannounced Nerve Software project. Thing is, though, that instead of hiring more employees, id is just letting their bitch companies (and the term 'bitch companies' is used lovingly here) do that for them. Raven will release a good game with the id logo stamped all over it, just like Heretic, and the same will go for the Nerve Software game.

I really hope one of two things happens: 1) id proves me an idiot and makes all 3 of these games kick a shitload of ass, or 2) id releases these games in the same rehashed, unimaginative fashion that they did with Quake3 and Q3: TA ("let's steal ideas for mods in TA from the mod community!" - again, WTF are they paying Graeme for?) but gets their ass beat down by Team Fortress 2, Deus Ex 2, Thief 3, and Unreal 2 (which should all be pretty fucking awesome). Since I know the latter will never happen, thanks to the plethora of blinded id fanboys everywhere, I can only hope for the first.

Oh well. Good luck on the games, id/Raven/Nerve.

08-11-01 16:31 #

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Lord FlatHead
man overboard

Posts: 2910
Registered: 06-00

I OUGHT TO SKIN YOU AND EAT YOUR BONES !!

If the Zombies look, work and move great without super-AI, fine by me. They're hellspawn goddammit, not chess players.

08-11-01 19:09 #

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EllipsusD
Senior Member

Posts: 1129
Registered: 09-00

Prower is right (though I don't feel as extremely about it has he does). Demons were able to outsmart humans, right? That gives them some level of inteligence. You want the game to be scary with the limited numbers of enemies the game will be able to provide? That requires intelligence as well. Fine, zombies don't need to be smart, but that isn't an excuse for the rest of the enemies to be dumb. It's bad form in game developing to say "ah, we'll let somebody else deal with it..." I expect the AI to be at least on par with the other games released at the time, and if id can't even pull that off, I'll be very dissapointed in the game.

08-11-01 19:19 #

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Zaldron
Sex Cauldron

Posts: 9917
Registered: 08-00

Hey, I saw this reply before, here are my thoughts.

Fuck this new Doom game, and fuck id. One little thing tipped me off on how this new Doom game will shape out - the AI "problem". What he's trying to say is that he wants the game to be exactly like the old Doom, but in a newer engine.

Ummmh, no. Check Stomped's comments, id even has storyboards already designed depicting the back story. Besides, everyone that saw the engine demo believes that this game is going to be more story-driven. Robert Duffy said a while ago that the new plot practically dwarfs everything id has done before.

True, I can't really say how will this thing turn out, but at least this is promising.

Half-Life had excellent AI by most anyone's standards. Thief 2 had great AI. Deus Ex had some good AI. I don't buy that technology is preventing Carmack from making the Doom 3 enemies more than mindless drones - it sounds more like he's afraid to change the original Doom at all.

HL's AI is incredibly stupid. Open the tutorial maps that come with WC. There is no scripted movements there. You can take down <4> Marines with just the pistol.
Deus Ex had terrible AI and Thief 2 has great "states" but pretty crappy AI. Thank God, otherwise the game would be impossible.

What you people should understand that id will make good AI for the creatures. An adequate AI for those hellspawns, real AI is the one that should be implemented in real-life combat training simulations, or complex/intense dramatic scenes were the characters should react to certain dialogues of triggers.

AI in today FPSs = Almost non-existant. It's just a couple of behaviors (idle, looking, fighting) that are slighty different for each monster type because of their moves and overall animations.

AI as real AI can only be found in strategy games. That's FUCKING all.

The rest of what prower copied is pretty much right.

08-11-01 21:26 #

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The Unknown
Junior Member

Posts: 86
Registered: 02-01

So the AI should outsmart us?Dumb ass that will never work!How fun is it when u are in a really hard level and then some Imps run behind u and kill you or some bull demons?Better than Half life whould be good

08-12-01 18:43 #

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Jeremy
Junior Member

Posts: 180
Registered: 08-00

Well, for one thing, whoever wrote that toppic is an asshole, a complete FUCKING ASSHOLE

HMM WHERE HAVE WE HEARD THAT? Quake1, 2, 3

Uhm NONE of them look or act alike.

THE A.I. PROBLEM

Dude, FAGGOT, your up against BRAINLESS ZOMBIES, and blood thirty DEMONS.. SO THEY NEED TO BE INTELLIGENT!? Should we care if a zombie walks into a fucking wall becuase he's suppose to be SO SMART NECUAE HE HAS NO FUCKING BRAIN?

AND THEY WANT IT TO BE EXACTLY THE SAME WITH A NEW ENGINE

Last time I checked, that was A GOOD THING. Apparently this MORON ASS MUNCHER did not see how good the DOOM3 Engine is!

FUCK ID, FUCK DOOM3...

Who the hell does he think he IS!? A gelouse co-executive of 3-D Realms!? id Software is the #1 FPS company. If it was not for id Software, FPS would be WAY different to this day, probably suckier {ie untexured ceiling and floors, LOL} and probably a lot later into the 90's. They pretty much started it all, and Doom is STILL rated #1 game of ALL TIME.

If Romero weren't so busy getting those $900 chairs in his office, maybe he could've actually played the game and realized that save gems aren't any fun in an FPS. Anachronox just kicks ass and is probably the only recent console-style RPG to hit the computer screen since FF7/8 for PC were released.

Well, no wonder, this stupid bitch needs to leave the fucking FPS community and go back to playing his gay RPGS!!! God, what a stupid mother fucker!

1) id proves me to be a moron.

And that IS what will happen becuase so far, he is the ONLY ONE to complain about Doom3. Everyone else is to shocked and amazed by the GFX. Oh, BTW, TAKE OF CAPS LOCK ASSHOLE!

08-12-01 19:02 #

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prower
Linguica fired me

Posts: 64
Registered: 05-00

I really shouldn't respond to that blatantly uninformed and biased post, but since I feel like using my dry sarcastic wit for the purpose of good...

Well, for one thing, whoever wrote that toppic is an asshole, a complete FUCKING ASSHOLE

HMM WHERE HAVE WE HEARD THAT? Quake1, 2, 3

Uhm NONE of them look or act alike.

Oh yeah, I forgot that they were all completely different. I forgot that Quake 1 was an FPS, Quake 2 was a flight simulator, and Quake 3 was a SimCity clone.

THE A.I. PROBLEM

Dude, FAGGOT, your up against BRAINLESS ZOMBIES, and blood thirty DEMONS.. SO THEY NEED TO BE INTELLIGENT!? Should we care if a zombie walks into a fucking wall becuase he's suppose to be SO SMART NECUAE HE HAS NO FUCKING BRAIN?

Thanks for assuming that I am gay because of my opinion on the AI, it really makes you look intelligent. Who says zombies are brainless? Besides, what about the cacodemon? Hissy once beat me in chess.

AND THEY WANT IT TO BE EXACTLY THE SAME WITH A NEW ENGINE

Last time I checked, that was A GOOD THING. Apparently this MORON ASS MUNCHER did not see how good the DOOM3 Engine is!

Once again, your insults make you look like a very intelligent person. I, for one, am not in favor of rehashing the same game over and over. I guess our opinions differ on this issue.[/quote]

FUCK ID, FUCK DOOM3...

Who the hell does he think he IS!? A gelouse co-executive of 3-D Realms!? id Software is the #1 FPS company. If it was not for id Software, FPS would be WAY different to this day, probably suckier {ie untexured ceiling and floors, LOL} and probably a lot later into the 90's. They pretty much started it all, and Doom is STILL rated #1 game of ALL TIME.

#1 rated game of all time by who? There are many games which outclass Doom. Half-Life and Deus Ex are in the same genre, but put Doom to shame. Zelda: Ocarina and Time and Final Fantasy 7 were universally loved by critics. Hate to bring you out of 1993, but Doom isn't the #1 game of all time anymore.

Well, no wonder, this stupid bitch [Romero] needs to leave the fucking FPS community and go back to playing his gay RPGS!!! God, what a stupid mother fucker!

You DO realize that Romero was in a large part responsible for the Doom game you cherish so much.

1) id proves me to be a moron.

And that IS what will happen becuase so far, he is the ONLY ONE to complain about Doom3. Everyone else is to shocked and amazed by the GFX. Oh, BTW, TAKE OF CAPS LOCK ASSHOLE!

Uh, the caps were used for emphasis. I did not type that post in all caps. I'm not the only one to have complaints and doubts of Doom 3 - Sander Pilon (of Shacknews fame) agreed with my thoughts when I posted it over there. Obviously, you need to get some independent thoughts in your head instead of Carmack's genitals in your mouth.

08-12-01 20:22 #

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Tetzlaff
Senior Member

Posts: 1053
Registered: 06-00

Hey Prower, why don�t you take the time and answer to the reasonable posts as well? Looks like you are just waiting for insults.

08-12-01 20:44 #

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Jeremy
Junior Member

Posts: 180
Registered: 08-00

Becuase he's a stupid asshole that needs to leave the FPS community. And if all he does is enjoy degrading Doom, he should, or his post, be kicked.

Ok, by what you last said Prower, I see you as very fucking stupid. Ok, None of the Quakes look alike. Quake1, its Gothic. QuakeII, its alien. QuakeIII, its a fighting arena.

So what the fuck to you want? DoomIII to be a fuckin' RPG or somthing? Uh, I dont think so. And none of the other shit you replied to makes any sence at all. You need to leave. Doom is Doom, and its not going to change. Zombies are not smart. Demons want to kill you.

And, Half-Life and D-X out beat Doom.. HAHAHA! There are many people here who can disagree with you on this one. Perhaps half-life is a good game, but Doom, BY GAMESPY, is still #1 of all time. And as for D-X, that game was shit, it was fucking horrible, probably worse than the Thundra demo.

If you hate id Software, and Doom, and want RPGs and FlightSimulators, go somewhere else and fuck off.

BTW. Hissy only beat you in Chess becuase YOU SUCK.

08-12-01 21:25 #

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prower
Linguica fired me

Posts: 64
Registered: 05-00

Hey Prower, why don�t you take the time and answer to the reasonable posts as well? Looks like you are just waiting for insults.

Because Zaldron's post (which is what I'm assuming you're referring to) is pretty much dead-on. The only thing that's different is our definition of good AI. I think Carmack means it's going to be Doom2-level AI, while he thinks "good AI" means human intelligence simulating. Only time will tell. As for the storyboards, well, dwarfing the stories of all id games before isn't much of an accomplishment :P If it does have a story, then it will probably be a Half-Life style (read: not good) one. Besides, Doom1 was supposed to have a pretty involved story, but look how that turned out.

08-12-01 21:55 #

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prower
Linguica fired me

Posts: 64
Registered: 05-00

Becuase he's a stupid asshole that needs to leave the FPS community. And if all he does is enjoy degrading Doom, he should, or his post, be kicked.

God forbid I have an opinion that doesn't agree with yours.

Ok, by what you last said Prower, I see you as very fucking stupid. Ok, None of the Quakes look alike. Quake1, its Gothic. QuakeII, its alien. QuakeIII, its a fighting arena.

Looks don't necessarily mean a game is different. As far as multiplayer (deathmatch) goes the Quake series are very similar. Quake SP was a crappier, boring version of Doom's, Quake 2's SP was a crappier boring version of Quake's with objectives, and Quake 3s SP was nonexistant.

So what the fuck to you want? DoomIII to be a fuckin' RPG or somthing? Uh, I dont think so. And none of the other shit you replied to makes any sence at all. You need to leave. Doom is Doom, and its not going to change. Zombies are not smart. Demons want to kill you.

"Its not going to change". I see that you are at the id offices right now, making sure that Doom 3 is just Doom in the Doom3 engine? I don't want Doom3 to be an RPG - if Doom3 is going to be an FPS, it needs to have a good story and good AI, in my opinion. Even a few RPG elements, like weapon or armour upgrades would be cool. The days of just going around collecting health and armour and keys are over.

And, Half-Life and D-X out beat Doom.. HAHAHA! There are many people here who can disagree with you on this one. Perhaps half-life is a good game, but Doom, BY GAMESPY, is still #1 of all time. And as for D-X, that game was shit, it was fucking horrible, probably worse than the Thundra demo.

I forgot that Gamespy was the #1, end-all authority for games. Which is strange, because the Gamespy staff doesn't even play games anymore. If you thought Deus Ex was bad, you are officially a moron, and deserve to die a horrible, horrible death.

If you hate id Software, and Doom, and want RPGs and FlightSimulators, go somewhere else and fuck off.

Did I say I hated id Software and Doom? OK, I did say "fuck id Software", but only because of (what I think is) the direction that are taking Doom3 in. I think id Software is a collection of some of the most talented game designers in the world, but they aren't applying themselves - instead, they just remake their old games in Carmack's shiny new engines. Basically, they need to get Graeme to do his damn job as a game concept designer dude.

08-12-01 22:04 #

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l�m�nt
BAND

Posts: 3781
Registered: 11-00

Bah, screw you. You just don't get it.

08-12-01 22:22 #

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fodders
OWNS YOU

Posts: 5821
Registered: 05-00

Thanks for assuming that I am gay because of my opinion on the AI, it really makes you look intelligent.

Assuming he is a moron because of his opinion is right back at ya?

If you thought Deus Ex was bad, you are officially a moron, and deserve to die a horrible, horrible death.

08-12-01 23:16 #

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Zaldron
Sex Cauldron

Posts: 9917
Registered: 08-00

I'm pretty much sure that John Carmack was talking about human behavior when he said "good AI". We'll see when the mp3s with the speeches are uploaded.

08-13-01 01:34 #

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Doomworld Forums > Newfangled Doom > Doom 3 General > My observations and (somewhat hostile) rant at id/Doom3/Quake4

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