rtcw, doom3, halflife´s narrative standard

Here is something I would like to discuss with you Doom3 addicted. Over in the quake3world forums I noticed a topic where someone is disappointed about the way of story telling in the recently released RTCWolfenstein:
http://www.quake3world.com/ubb/Forum18/HTML/000620.html

I haven´t buyed or played RTCW yet, so I don´t have an opinion about that on my own. The point of this guy is that RTCW doesn´t reach the standard of story immersivness that Halflife set 4 years ago.
From all the discussons we had in the Doom3 forum over here, I´m sure I can speak for the majority of us that we expect (or wish) that Doom3 will at least reach that HL standard of story development, combined with id´s famous artwork and level design and their very own way of creating a strong athmosphere in a game.

If RTCW is not reaching the HL standard, will Doom3 reach it then? I know id was just supervising Gray Matter Studios during the development of RTCW, but for me it was the first id-involved Single Player game since Q2, so I had certain expectations at least.

Well, id´s Paul Jaquays answer to this topic:

"When you experience something for the first time NOTHING you ever experience again can live up to your memories of the first thing.[...] No roleplaying experience I have had ever matched the sheer magic of the first time I played Dungeons & Dragons [...] Anyway, the game's intended to be an entertaining fast action shooter, not a Half-Life killer."

Nobody wants that modern shooters *feel* like HL, it´s just the way how the story manages to involve the player into the game what matters.

I hoped id is aware of that and tries to reach that HL level of story immersiveness. I´m a bit anxious now, will Doom3 in the end just be another "entertaining fast action shooter"?

Does anybody know if id hired a professional writer for Doom3, like Valve did for HL?

Urgh, I hope that Doom3 doesn't end up like HL, repetetive, boring, non-scary. To hell with a fixed, progressing story. Make the player make up his own story in his mind as he progresses through the horror.

Haven´t I stated clearly enough that I´m only talking about HL´s way of story development? I´m not a HL fan, I don´t like HL´s humour with "fat Barney the guard" and "mad scientists", I don´t like HL´s boring, ugly looking realistic weapons, I don´t like the cartoonish aliens and the whole athmosphere of HL. But the way how Halflife developped the in-game story (without any action interupting script scenes) was simply great and made me enjoy the game.

"Make the player make up his own story in his mind as he progresses through the horror."

That was fine in Doom, that was fine in Quake1. But you can have so much more. And you can have both: a strong story, and a intense athmosphere that gives you plenty of room for your own fantasy.

Instead the game was interrupted by boring scientist/guards/whatever talking about something uninteresting, a bullet to the head is what they got.
If the story doesn't interrupt the gameplay at all, then it's ok. I don't think HL set any standard to look up to when it comes to storytelling.

The main reason why people think of Half-Life as some kind of 'storytelling experience' is because every first person shooter that had come before was CRAP at storytelling. Half-Life excelled at creating a compelling and believable setting. In the end its story was another "someone opens up a portal or black hole and aliens come out", just like DOOM, Quake and Quake 2 before it.

Right, it´s the way how the story is telled with the possibilities of a first person shooter, not the story content itself.

BTW, who or what decapitalized my topic headline? o_O

BTW, who or what decapitalized my topic headline? o_O

The forum software is buggy and it will do that.

"When you experience something for the first time NOTHING you ever experience again can live up to your memories of the first thing.[...] No roleplaying experience I have had ever matched the sheer magic of the first time I played Dungeons & Dragons [...]

I can't say the same for me. The campaign I'm in right now is 10x better than the first one I played in.

I hope Doom does have a decent storyline. Maybe for once, some decent voice acting take place in an FPS...nah. I don't really care, as long as the atmosphere is good and there is some good scripting involved.

Urgh, I hope that Doom3 doesn't end up like HL, repetetive, boring, non-scary. To hell with a fixed, progressing story. Make the player make up his own story in his mind as he progresses through the horror.

You know, I'm really starting to think that there are some people who are just plain damn scared of anything that involves mind power or intelligence. "Uhhh...yeah, I just wanna...shoot things...yeah..." What is the damn problem? You know, all these people on the forums are like, "We would do anything to save Doom and keep it the most awesome game out there." Well, sorry to inform certain people, but Doom is NOT going to be the 'best game out there' anymore if Id decides to make a mindless, thoughtless, gore-fest like the original. Hey, don't get me wrong, I love the original just as much as the next person, but today's gamers want immersive gameplay. They WANT to use their brains to solve puzzles, understand and unravel stories, and develop their own strategies for use against enemy AI. These are the elements that keep games interesting, and I give major props to you, Tetzlaff, for demonstrating some intelligence and taste.

Thanks prime :)

I still play Doom2 sometimes (looks nice with the JDoom graphic enhancements), but for example Serious Sam started to bore me after the 5th level.

I still play Doom2 sometimes (looks nice with the JDoom graphic enhancements), but for example Serious Sam started to bore me after the 5th level.

Yeah, I'm like the only one out of everyone I know who still plays the oldschool Doom (Doom, Doom 2, etc). And I don't even play the enhanced ones either...just the plain old originals.
Anyone beat Final Doom without cheating? Christ, what were those people thinking?

well said,Prime...apart from shoot n run gameplay,id should focus on giving storyline.they should put good use of scripted events,NPC,in-game cutscenes for story-telling.i'm glad to hear that they have design document and story boards.this must be a good sign...

You know, I'm really starting to think that there are some people who are just plain damn scared of anything that involves mind power or intelligence. "Uhhh...yeah, I just wanna...shoot things...yeah..." What is the damn problem? You know, all these people on the forums are like, "We would do anything to save Doom and keep it the most awesome game out there." Well, sorry to inform certain people, but Doom is NOT going to be the 'best game out there' anymore if Id decides to make a mindless, thoughtless, gore-fest like the original. Hey, don't get me wrong, I love the original just as much as the next person, but today's gamers want immersive gameplay. They WANT to use their brains to solve puzzles, understand and unravel stories, and develop their own strategies for use against enemy AI. These are the elements that keep games interesting, and I give major props to you, Tetzlaff, for demonstrating some intelligence and taste.

Mixing FPS with rpg elements works sometimes, but it turns the game into something completely different. I dont want puzzles, riddles, etc in a Doom game. I can enjoy it in other games where the focus lies on such things.

I want Doom to be atmospheric, scary, have dangerous, high hp enemies which scares the hell out of you and make you run for your life the first time you see it.

I agree with the AI part though, make the enemies have great AI so that they are a real threat and not just fodder.

And if there are problems to solve which require you to think, at least make the player solve them while he's fighting off some monsters so it doesn't turn into "doh, I am stuck, I'll go play Quake 4 DM instead". I want action, not tiresome problemsolving. Maybe turn the problems into tricks which allows you to get some ammo/health/skip some monsters/whatever, so all the brains can have their fun.

Erik, I don't mean that I want an RPG Doom...far from it. However, what I AM saying is that I want this new Doom to be mentally involving. The puzzles I spoke of aren't RPG puzzles, but rather logic puzzles concerning how do get out of certain areas without being seen, harmed, etc., or how to defeat certain enemies using the environment you are in (ie, last mission of first episode of quake). These types of puzzles keep you thinking, which would enhance the experience...

Erik, I don't mean that I want an RPG Doom...far from it. However, what I AM saying is that I want this new Doom to be mentally involving. The puzzles I spoke of aren't RPG puzzles, but rather logic puzzles concerning how do get out of certain areas without being seen, harmed, etc., or how to defeat certain enemies using the environment you are in (ie, last mission of first episode of quake). These types of puzzles keep you thinking, which would enhance the experience...

As long as it involves action in some form, like outsmarting monsters, running from monsters, etc, I'm with you. I think I had liked the quake boss more if you could blow him away with rockets instead if you wanted to (even if his hp was very high), that especially goes for the final boss who's terribly dull.

I think I had liked the quake boss more if you could blow him away with rockets instead if you wanted to (even if his hp was very high), that especially goes for the final boss who's terribly dull.

Yeah, that was kinda weak how he could only be damaged by the electric-prod-type-things. It would have been really cool to have the boss guy COME OUT of the lava pool and actually chase you. Of course the room would have to be about 10 times larger, but hey, how cool would it be to have that HUGE mf chasing you around? One word - damn.

i'm glad to hear that they have design document and story boards.this must be a good sign...

Do you know more about it? And it would be interesting to know if they got help from a professional story writer, or regisseur...I mean, id has the money to do this.

Here's the thing, no game feels as inmersive as HL for 2 key reasons, one of them already mentioned by an id guy.

#1 NOTHING BEATS THE "FIRST TIME". Hell, no matter if you're showing me a RTS from the year 2190, StarCraft is better for me. Nothing scared me as DooM so far, altough there are games far more moody now. And I mean <FAR>.

#2 HL'S A SCARY GAME. No game is more involving than those with shadows and creepy monsters and a feeling of loneliness. I just don't know why, but looks like developers know how to scare players. Wolfenstein's about action, about killing guys room after room, killing soldiers and mutants and zombies in the middle of WW2. That's not the proper atmosphere to scare you. The whole idea of B.J., a "Hero" from US already nullifies the whole creepiness. It's like in Thief, you're not afraid of shadows in that game. But what about SS2? Hell, I couldn't gather enough willpower in order to enter certain poor-lit rooms.

Does anybody know if id hired a professional writer for Doom3, like Valve did for HL?

What a waste. There's no need for that. There wasn't any real "story evolution" or "key characters" or "defining moments" on HL. WTF was that guy doing?

In fact, I could write a post about "Why HL sucks now and people don't realize it, but VALVe knows it so they keep supporting CS to hide that fact".

iD isn't trying to please us, they're trying to please the mainstream of gamers which happen to like games like Half Life and Dues Ex. Wouldn't you rather please more people then less people?

iD isn't trying to please us, they're trying to please the mainstream of gamers which happen to like games like Half Life and Dues Ex. Wouldn't you rather please more people then less people?

Actualy, I think they are trying to please people like us, who like games like Quake and such.

I think the hole DOOM-Thing offers more room for story than Wolfenstein ever could.
So DooM 3 Will have a good Story... and i think, the Guys at ID are Fans of their own games, so the will create a DooM, which will please us all.
Hey trust me !

Here's the thing, no game feels as inmersive as HL for 2 key reasons, one of them already mentioned by an id guy.

#1 NOTHING BEATS THE "FIRST TIME". Hell, no matter if you're showing me a RTS from the year 2190, StarCraft is better for me. Nothing scared me as DooM so far, altough there are games far more moody now. And I mean <FAR>.

#2 HL'S A SCARY GAME. No game is more involving than those with shadows and creepy monsters and a feeling of loneliness. ... Wolfenstein's about action, about killing guys room after room, killing soldiers and mutants and zombies in the middle of WW2. That's not the proper atmosphere to scare you. The whole idea of B.J., a "Hero" from US already nullifies the whole creepiness. It's like in Thief, you're not afraid of shadows in that game. But what about SS2? Hell, I couldn't gather enough willpower in order to enter certain poor-lit rooms.

I think the "oh the memories" argument doesn´t matter here. The first ego shooter I played was Wolfenstein 3D, but it was Doom2 that was one of my most intense gaming experiences. RTCW isn´t more interesting for me than Unreal2 or Duke Forever, when it comes to sequels, but Doom3 is. Because in it´s time Doom was a great game with strong, scary athmosphere, interesting environments and fun gameplay.

#2: Halflife is a scary game? What is so scary about those little critters which make funny noises? What is so scary about those bigger monsters whch look like action toys and shoot flies at you? What was scary about the alien world that looked like scenery from a chaep 80´s SciFi, what was scary about the boss monster, that looked like a giant floating baby?
IMO Halflife wasn´t scary at all, but it was entertaining because of it´s immersive story.

You say the professional writer was a waste and that HL had no story evolution etc. In my opinion the story evolution was the strong part of HL, the way how you were introduced into your environment, the start of the whole story when the accident happened (in most other games you start after the catastrophe, or the intro movie tells about the catastrophe, but you are not part of it), then the feeling of beeing on your own and find a way out of this mess... the scenes where that gouvernment guy appeared in the background (just to stimulate your imagination: who is he? He seems to know what is going on here. Is this whole happening part of a plan? etc. etc.)...the turning points of the story, when for example the sniper chicks appeared and you got caught...impressive introduction of new monsters, for example when you first saw the giant Gargantua (or how they are called) from a distance, fighting a couple of marines.

All those points were part of the immersive story technique. Sure, I can´t say if it turned out so well because they hired a story writer...in fact I think you need more a regisseur than a story writer, because the pure story content isn´t the big deal. In Doom3 the story content is basicly the same like Doom1 I guess, but imagine how a good regisseur could turn that into a thrilling movie-like gaming experience.

Voodooextreme on RTCW: "I came home expecting the next big thing in the first person shooter scene. What I got, however, was a less than ordinary game with extraordinary graphics and strong multiplayer support, which pretty much sums up every game by id Software."

I'm afraid this is true, and will apply to DOOM3. If this is true this means that Id will stay/become a very good engine builder, but a lousy game creater.

Please proove me wrong!!

I think the "oh the memories" argument doesn´t matter here. The first ego shooter I played was Wolfenstein 3D, but it was Doom2 that was one of my most intense gaming experiences. RTCW isn´t more interesting for me than Unreal2 or Duke Forever, when it comes to sequels, but Doom3 is. Because in it´s time Doom was a great game with strong, scary athmosphere, interesting environments and fun gameplay.

Actually you gotta realize there are different times in the FPS scene. Each one defined mostly by technology. I have Wolf3D as a pioneer for the first era, DooM and Hexen for the second and SS2, Thief2 and Quake for the third era. The fourth one will begin with Unreal 2, most probably, or maybe Doom3. I agree DooM 3 is by far the most interesting sequel, but that's because we all want sequels from the games that truly shocked us. I for one can't wait for a Thief III, a Hexen III or a System Shock III. I'm waiting for those as much as DooM 3.

#2: Halflife is a scary game? What is so scary about those little critters which make funny noises? What is so scary about those bigger monsters whch look like action toys and shoot flies at you? What was scary about the alien world that looked like scenery from a chaep 80´s SciFi, what was scary about the boss monster, that looked like a giant floating baby?
IMO Halflife wasn´t scary at all, but it was entertaining because of it´s immersive story.

The game was supposed to be scary, but they totally ruined that. You're right on that and that's mostly why I think it sucks. It started as the perfect survival/horror game and ended up even more cheesy than Quake.

You say the professional writer was a waste and that HL had no story evolution etc. In my opinion the story evolution was the strong part of HL...

I know what you mean, those where the good parts of the game. But a professional story writer isn't necesary, just a couple of guys with imagination and talent. Besides what's a professional story writer? Easy, a guy who studied exactly the same as the Lead Game Designer. In most cases it's not really necesary.

Voodooextreme on RTCW: "I came home expecting the next big thing in the first person shooter scene. What I got, however, was a less than ordinary game with extraordinary graphics and strong multiplayer support, which pretty much sums up every game by id Software."

I'm afraid this is true, and will apply to DOOM3. If this is true this means that Id will stay/become a very good engine builder, but a lousy game creater.

Please proove me wrong!!

Check the comments on that thread. Apache is a Epic Fanboy if you didn't know. There's lots of people with more common sense in there.

The game was supposed to be scary, but they totally ruined that. You're right on that and that's mostly why I think it sucks. It started as the perfect survival/horror game and ended up even more cheesy than Quake.

LOL! I didn´t knew that, I always thought it was supposed to be a humorous action game :)

Yeah we don´t have to argue that HL isn´t the greatest game ever, it is just that way of story telling what matters here. Mabye id doesn´t need a professional writer for that. But for example, I´m pretty sure the id crew always had some cool story ideas, but most time didn´t managed to work it out for the released game... for example Quake: In every episode you start in a different part of the military base, that feels as if there was some story idea behind it, but in the end? Or the 4 runes, they ended up as completely useless artefacts you collected in the end of each episode...and finally, after killing Shub Nigurath, "id software salutes you"...wtf?

Why don't people sit up and realize that Quake and HL are actually GOOD games (and nothing you can say will deter my opinion)? Quake starts off scary (E1M1-The SlipGate Complex-Remember hearing the beeping buttons in the background and the lack of music, plus all those shadows? I thought it was perfectly creepy.) HL is much the same way, but it's more like a movie to me. It's scary in some parts, but not through the whole entire game, like Quake or Doom is.
To summarize: Quake and HL are good quality games, and they are much better than people give them credit for.
And that's my two cents on this particular thread.

I know what you mean, those where the good parts of the game. But a professional story writer isn't necesary, just a couple of guys with imagination and talent. Besides what's a professional story writer? Easy, a guy who studied exactly the same as the Lead Game Designer. In most cases it's not really necesary.

You're right, in most cases a professional writer isn't necessary. Then agian, I think Half-Life is one of those games that did need somebody who knew about writing. A writer may not be needed to script out events, but who do you think comes up with all the dialogue? Granted, what many of the characters said in Half-Life was not the most brilliantly composed thing- but you can see how it starts to become necessary.