Icon of Sin / Baphomet
Register | User Profile | Member List | F.A.Q | Privacy Policy | New Blog | Search Forums | Forums Home
Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Newfangled Doom > Doom 3 General > Why Doom 3 would suck on idTech5
Pages (2): [1] 2 »  
Author
All times are GMT. The time now is 03:46. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
Sodaholic
I feel justified yet disgusted with myself at the same time


Posts: 2709
Registered: 04-07


They're fundamentally incompatible in every conceivable way. idTech5 bakes everything into it's textures, the lighting, the normal maps, the whole shebang. It's texture compression algorithm compresses dark areas the most. Realtime lighting is only done for entities, not brushes.

Not to mention that you would gain nothing and waste memory with a megatexture with tons of tiled textures.

What you would end up with is a flat, dull, bland looking Doom 3 with no texture definition or detail whatsoever, and would completely lose it's character.

It'd be fun to try to port it there for shits and giggles, though.

Old Post 06-04-12 07:25 #
Sodaholic is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Dragonsbrethren
Senior Member


Posts: 2398
Registered: 03-09


Next up: Why Doom 3 would suck on idTech2.

Old Post 06-04-12 21:16 #
Dragonsbrethren is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Mogul
Senior Member


Posts: 1752
Registered: 01-01


CLASSIC soda post.

Old Post 06-04-12 22:16 #
Mogul is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
DuckReconMajor
Forum Legend


Posts: 4223
Registered: 01-09


Doom 2 with megatextures would suck

up all my money

Old Post 06-04-12 22:44 #
DuckReconMajor is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Sodaholic
I feel justified yet disgusted with myself at the same time


Posts: 2709
Registered: 04-07



Mogul said:
CLASSIC soda post.

What? You seem to be classifying it as a shitpost, and I fail to see why. I saw someone in another thread saying they think it'd be cool if id ported Doom 3 to idTech5, and I thought of a few reasons why that would actually harm the game and not have it gain anything. This is the post it was indirectly a response to:

Marnetmar said:
It might be kind of cool if someone at id decided to port Doom 3 to id Tech 5 and then sell it on steam. There's no chance of it and it'd most likely be next to impossible, but it'd still be cool.


I just wanted to make an informative post outlining why newer isn't always better when it comes to engines, especially when the fundamental rendering technologies behind it are completely different. I'm not saying that idTech5 is bad, it's anything but, but there are certain things that aren't appropriate for it, and Doom 3 is easily one of them, since it absolutely depends and is based on features that were removed in idTech5.

Old Post 06-05-12 00:35 #
Sodaholic is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
DuckReconMajor
Forum Legend


Posts: 4223
Registered: 01-09



Sodaholic said:
What? You seem to be classifying it as a shitpost,
no, it's a sodapost

Liam said:
> implying this is 4chan
i seriously hope you sodaposters don't do this

Old Post 06-05-12 00:50 #
DuckReconMajor is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Clonehunter
Forum Staple


Posts: 3618
Registered: 03-10


So... Doom 3 would suck on id Tech 5, but it'd be fun to port it anyways... for laughs...

What's the point of this? It's useless information imo.

Old Post 06-05-12 00:50 #
Clonehunter is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Sodaholic
I feel justified yet disgusted with myself at the same time


Posts: 2709
Registered: 04-07



Clonehunter said:
What's the point of this? It's useless information imo.

I thought it would be an interesting discussion about the pros, cons, and capabilities of id's different engines.

Old Post 06-05-12 01:00 #
Sodaholic is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Mogul
Senior Member


Posts: 1752
Registered: 01-01


It's a classic soda post because it's an assertion on a topic that didn't need refutation. The claims made in the OP seem like common sense to anyone who has seen either game in action. It also seemed to come out of the blue, like it would if I were to make a thread titled, I don't know, "An Essay on the Economics of Nigeria" in the Everything Else forum. Yes, technically it's OK to make such a thread; it's consistent with the subject of the subforum. But boy would it seem random, even within the context of a forum where you can make a thread on all sorts of subjects.

On that note, it's a classic soda post because it just didn't need its own thread. If this is an offshoot of some random conversation in some other thread, the least that could have been done is to add that disclosure so people didn't open the thread, like I did, and just say, "Well, duh... why does this thread even exist?"

All that said, for what it's worth, and to anyone that it's not blatantly obvious to: Moving D3 over to iT5 would destroy D3's core gameplay. The gameplay relies on the real-time lighting. The aesthetic relies on said lighting even more. iT5 is a total piece of shit when it comes to immersion via lighting. I loved Rage, but its indoor areas are the flattest, dullest, least-inspiring environments I've seen this generation. The textures looked like they were from a 2002 game, or worse.

But really, that seems like common sense to anyone who has the slightest clue. Seems like this could have been covered in whichever thread this idea was being thrown around in.

Old Post 06-05-12 04:30 #
Mogul is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Sodaholic
I feel justified yet disgusted with myself at the same time


Posts: 2709
Registered: 04-07


True, it was quite random. I figured it'd be immediately obvious to anyone with any knowledge about the actual workings of the engine, but this was moreso intended for people that had no idea (like Marnetmar, no offence).

No real need for further discussion, I guess. In retrospect, I should've just made it as a reply in the thread Marnetmar's post was in.

Old Post 06-05-12 04:34 #
Sodaholic is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
printz
CRAZY DUMB ZEALOT


Posts: 8781
Registered: 06-06


So, as I might understand, unlike idTech4, idTech5 has static "shadows" on brushes and other scenery, just like old Quake? That's just backwards.

__________________
Automatic Wolfenstein - Version 1.0 - also on Android

Old Post 06-05-12 05:45 #
printz is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Sodaholic
I feel justified yet disgusted with myself at the same time


Posts: 2709
Registered: 04-07



printz said:
idTech5 has static "shadows" on brushes and other scenery, just like old Quake?

Yep, except this time, it's baked into the texture. It doesn't even have any specular or normal mapping.

Last edited by Sodaholic on 06-05-12 at 06:05

Old Post 06-05-12 05:57 #
Sodaholic is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Mogul
Senior Member


Posts: 1752
Registered: 01-01


printz, I think the idea was that since a great deal of Rage would take place outdoors, and it wasn't going for a shadowy/horror aesthetic, it was technically smarter to just not include that kind of technology this time around.

Old Post 06-05-12 06:40 #
Mogul is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Cyanosis
Forum Regular


Posts: 729
Registered: 10-10


Still, that would mean someone using the engine would need to rely on outdoor areas for the best effect like id Tech 4 for indoor areas. Let's hope id Tech 666 can actually manage to do both at the same time eh?

Old Post 06-05-12 09:09 #
Cyanosis is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
DoomUK
Forum Staple


Posts: 3841
Registered: 04-04


Rage was just a horrible step backwards in so many ways.

Old Post 06-05-12 12:23 #
DoomUK is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Marnetmar
Forum Staple


Posts: 2794
Registered: 09-10


When was that post I made from anyway? Surely it was several months ago, and I've already been educated on why I was wrong. I think creating a separate thread is a little overkill as well, assuming it was directed at me in particular.

Old Post 06-05-12 15:59 #
Marnetmar is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
printz
CRAZY DUMB ZEALOT


Posts: 8781
Registered: 06-06



Mogul said:
printz, I think the idea was that since a great deal of Rage would take place outdoors, and it wasn't going for a shadowy/horror aesthetic, it was technically smarter to just not include that kind of technology this time around.
I thought I had read in Wikipedia that idTech5 would have, unlike 4, penumbras (blurry shadows for distant objects).

__________________
Automatic Wolfenstein - Version 1.0 - also on Android

Old Post 06-05-12 23:08 #
printz is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Mogul
Senior Member


Posts: 1752
Registered: 01-01



Cyanosis said:
Still, that would mean someone using the engine would need to rely on outdoor areas for the best effect like id Tech 4 for indoor areas.


In my opinion, that's pretty much how it turned out. Rage's outdoor areas are stunning, but the indoor areas are shockingly bad-looking for a 2011 game. I'm with you, in that it would be nice if we could get an engine from id that did both kinds of areas well. Unfortunately, engines that handle both at a high level are historically pretty rare.

Old Post 06-05-12 23:12 #
Mogul is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Sodaholic
I feel justified yet disgusted with myself at the same time


Posts: 2709
Registered: 04-07



Mogul said:
it would be nice if we could get an engine from id that did both kinds of areas well. Unfortunately, engines that handle both at a high level are historically pretty rare.

I can imagine that such an engine would be very, very demanding. If you wanted an engine with both realtime lighting and megatexturing, it would require an extra megatexture for normal mapping, since it can't just be baked in anymore when you take realtime lighting into account. Even the normal maps would look awful with the compression, and give everything an odd appearance due to the distorted shape caused by the compression used by Rage's texutres.

In the end, although megatexturing is an interesting concept, it doesn't really have much to offer over traditional tiling-texture engines. I'd bet that Rage would look largely the same if it were redone with tiling textures instead.

Old Post 06-07-12 15:53 #
Sodaholic is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Maes
I like big butts!


Posts: 12271
Registered: 07-06


Your posts ARE that bad. Seriously.

Old Post 06-07-12 23:18 #
Maes is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
printz
CRAZY DUMB ZEALOT


Posts: 8781
Registered: 06-06



Maes said:
Your posts ARE that bad. Seriously.
Why, exactly?

__________________
Automatic Wolfenstein - Version 1.0 - also on Android

Old Post 06-07-12 23:31 #
printz is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Maes
I like big butts!


Posts: 12271
Registered: 07-06



printz said:
Why, exactly?


Rules of Sodaholic posts:


  1. Sodaholic posts are bad
  2. Sodaholic posts are really bad. Seriously.
  3. If wondering why, read the posts themselves.
  4. In all other cases, refer to rule #1

Old Post 06-07-12 23:51 #
Maes is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Sodaholic
I feel justified yet disgusted with myself at the same time


Posts: 2709
Registered: 04-07



Maes said:
Your posts ARE that bad. Seriously.

If my posts really are that bad, than are you able to point out any specific flaws in the following quote?


Sodaholic said:
I can imagine that such an engine would be very, very demanding. If you wanted an engine with both realtime lighting and megatexturing, it would require an extra megatexture for normal mapping, since it can't just be baked in anymore when you take realtime lighting into account. Even the normal maps would look awful with the compression, and give everything an odd appearance due to the distorted shape caused by the compression used by Rage's texutres.

In the end, although megatexturing is an interesting concept, it doesn't really have much to offer over traditional tiling-texture engines. I'd bet that Rage would look largely the same if it were redone with tiling textures instead.

Old Post 06-08-12 00:35 #
Sodaholic is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Maes
I like big butts!


Posts: 12271
Registered: 07-06


The premises behind them are bad. A few well-written posts in an otherwise conceptually flawed thread won't save the day.

Old Post 06-08-12 00:37 #
Maes is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Sodaholic
I feel justified yet disgusted with myself at the same time


Posts: 2709
Registered: 04-07



Maes said:
The premises behind them are bad. A few well-written posts in an otherwise conceptually flawed thread won't save the day.

I still don't really see the problem with this thread, even if it was a bit random and obvious. It was still informative, in the sense that it included specific, succinct details that demonstrated my point, which in this case is why a newer yet fundamentally different engine had specific weaknesses compared to it's direct predecessor in certain aspects of rendering.

Old Post 06-08-12 00:43 #
Sodaholic is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Maes
I like big butts!


Posts: 12271
Registered: 07-06


So an older game does not necessarily translate well to a newer engine designed with different assumptions in mind? Stop the presses!

COMING UP NEXT: Why classic platform and beat'em up games would suck with touch screen controls!

Old Post 06-08-12 07:39 #
Maes is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
chungy
Senior Member


Posts: 1829
Registered: 06-05


Super Mario Bros. 3 would suck on id Tech 5.

News at 11.

Old Post 06-08-12 08:02 #
chungy is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Avoozl
Senior Member


Posts: 2454
Registered: 06-09


I wonder how Doom 3 would've done on id tech 3.

Old Post 06-08-12 08:57 #
Avoozl is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Marnetmar
Forum Staple


Posts: 2794
Registered: 09-10


Possibly quite well. People have been able to do some crazy stuff with id Tech 3.

Old Post 06-08-12 20:56 #
Marnetmar is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
GoatLord
I really should think before I post.


Posts: 2565
Registered: 07-02


To those who find Soda's thread useless: I learned something today. He said that "idTech5 bakes everything into it's textures, the lighting, the normal maps, the whole shebang." I've been wondering why Rage somehow looks worse than Doom 3 in some respects. This is not only extremely disappointing, but why the hell would id take such a giant leap backwards in this regard?

Old Post 06-15-12 07:05 #
GoatLord is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
All times are GMT. The time now is 03:46. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
Pages (2): [1] 2 »  
Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Newfangled Doom > Doom 3 General > Why Doom 3 would suck on idTech5

Show Printable Version | Email this Page | Subscribe to this Thread

 

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are OFF
[IMG] code is ON
 

< Contact Us - Doomworld >

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.5
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.