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Doominator2
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I personally like the classic monsters than the new ones(Ugh I especially hate the new look of the Cacodemon.)

Old Post 01-15-14 23:09 #
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Crasger
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I find the original look of the Cacodemon adorable and pleasing. It looks better to fight than the Doom 3 models.

Old Post 01-16-14 00:16 #
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Edward850
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Why can't we like both?

Old Post 01-16-14 03:29 #
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Avoozl
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Edward850 said:
Why can't we like both?
Yeah, I have no problem with there being different versions.

Old Post 01-16-14 03:34 #
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printz
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Not to mention that the Doom 2 monsters are really the "newer" kind. Their Doom 3 counterparts look very similar.

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Old Post 01-16-14 05:45 #
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Piper Maru
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I like the creature designs from the original series and Doom 3. They both have there strong points. On a side note, I think I'm the only person here who likes the Doom 3 Cacodemon. I find the damn thing terrifying. The only critique I have about it is that it dies too easily!

Old Post 01-16-14 08:45 #
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Phml
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Edward850 said:
Why can't we like both?


Why can't we prefer one of the two if we like both?

Old Post 01-16-14 14:40 #
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DoomUK
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Piper Maru said:
I like the creature designs from the original series and Doom 3. They both have there strong points.

That's how I feel. Some people complained that the colour palette of the Doom 3 monsters was a little bland, but it obviously suited Doom 3's environments and atmosphere more than the more vibrant hues of their Doom/2 counterparts would have. Similarly, the original series wouldn't be quite the same without its flying strawberries and pink demons. Doom 64's monster colour palette is somewhere in-between I suppose, but their designs are as equally iconic and memorable as the other two.

I love them all. :p

Last edited by DoomUK on 01-16-14 at 18:39

Old Post 01-16-14 18:30 #
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Coopersville
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Shared Monsters I prefer:

DOOM CLASSIC:

Cacodemon - A classic video game monster. Gotta love it.
Imp - One of my favourite monsters. I really like Doom 3's Imp, but not as much.
Mancubus - I'd maybe prefer Doom 3's if it didn't have the mouth tubes.
Zombieman/Shotgunner - I like them better as canon fodder than the more agile Z-Sec zombies.
Cyberdemon - Doesn't need to be modded to be a threatening boss-tier monster.


DOOM 3:

Arch-Vile - Model details easier to make out in 3D, though I like the classic's attack pattern more.
Commando - As a replacement for the chaingunner, these guys look way scarier.
Demon - It's just a cool design.
Hell Knight - It's better than a palette swap.
Lost Soul - Very cool and unique.
Revenant - Better armor and the movement animations are less silly.

Old Post 01-16-14 20:03 #
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Darch
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Classic. I like how they are more vivid and colorful, Doom 3 monsters look all a bit too gray for me. Also, pixels.

Old Post 01-16-14 20:09 #
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Piper Maru
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In addition to my earlier post, I really the designs of the Imp, Pinky and Hell Knight from Doom 3. There's something so primal and downright evil from these particular creatures.

Old Post 01-16-14 21:33 #
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DooM_RO
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Piper Maru said:
In addition to my earlier post, I really the designs of the Imp, Pinky and Hell Knight from Doom 3. There's something so primal and downright evil from these particular creatures.


That's exactly how I feel. The other monsters are kind of samey though. Probably because they're all gray. The Arch Vile for instance could have been sickly yellow.

Here is a fantastic modern interpretation of the classic Doom imp posted on Id's twitter. https://twitter.com/DOOM/status/423...0097920/photo/1

Old Post 01-17-14 10:15 #
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Avoozl
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Looks a little too abstracty for my tastes, the Imp's were originally said to be brown furred with metal spikes while the artwork looks more lizard skin like and missing some spikes.

Old Post 01-17-14 10:43 #
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Shaviro
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I'll grab the boring option and say I prefer all(*) the classic monsters. It's true that the grey monsters of Doom3 blend more in with the surroundings in that game, but hint hint; Your game is too "grey" :)

While it's not directly a remake of a classic monster, my favorite monster from all that is Doom3 is the Bruiser. It's somewhat silly yes, but at least it has some flair and personality. Most of the Doom3 monsters are samey. I would have liked to see the Arachnotron and "Birdman" in there.

*All that said, I must pay some respect to the Revenant remake. I guess you could say it's at least as good if not better than the original. Great job on that one.

[EDIT] The posted artwork is nice, but seems to go in the Doom3 direction of a super athletic being. I liked the imp more as a slow-moving enemy that is a minor threat, but dangerous in numbers and/or in a combination with different monsters.

[EDIT 2] Oh well, might as well make the break down :)
Imp: I liked the classic more for reasons stated above.

Demon: The classic is much more applicable. The half organic, half machine thing is cool and all, but the monster is difficult to use and has a stupid "ROAR LOOK AT ME" thing going every 5 seconds.

Lost Soul: Points for not being a boring grey thing. It's not too bad and actually pretty scary when it charges. For whatever reason, I actually prefer the Forgotten Soul from RoE though.

Hell-Knight: This used to be a favorite of mine during the very interesting pre-release days. I've bored of it over time though. I can't say if this is a result of familiarity breeding contempt or whether it's because the monster quickly boils down to a bullet sponge.

Arch-Vile: Ugh. They messed this one up completely. The original was an elegant tall fast-moving menace that could make any fight more dynamic. The new one is a scripted bore that respawns predetermined monsters. It now hunches over and is grey instead of eerily yellow. The old one had amazing sounds where the new one sounds like your average whiney monster. Its awesome and heart stopping attack has been changed to a harmless flamewall. The incineration attack *is* present, but extremely rare.

Mancubus: Loved the original. The remake looks horrible. The octapus things on its face are dumb, its eyes glazed over and its skin looks so bad. Shiney and boring. The original was an ugly motherfucker with piercing eyes and generally fucked up appearances.

Revenant: Like I wrote somewhere above, this is pretty much spot on.

Cacodemon: The original is one of my all-time favorites, the new one is boring. It's not so much that the design is bad. It's a dull color yes, but what's worse is practically everything else about it. The behaviour is dumb. Why does it try to get up close and personal so fast? Why does it sound like your average whiney monster (a la D3 arch-vile)?

Cyberdemon: Oh dear. Parts of the design is great, other parts not so much. The metal mask it's wearing looks ridiculous. It's invincible. And boring.

Last edited by Shaviro on 01-17-14 at 11:04

Old Post 01-17-14 10:48 #
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Touchdown
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I wonder how many people would complain about "classic" designs if D3 versions appeared in 1993, and the original versions - in 2004.

Old Post 01-17-14 11:53 #
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Shaviro
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I think people are making way too sound arguments for either case for the "nostalgia card" to be valid ;)

Old Post 01-17-14 12:06 #
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Touchdown
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I don't know. I'd personally bet the newer designs would at the very least be "not the same anymore" in a lot of opinions. But that's just a random thought.

As for me, I don't like the original Imp, out of the two I prefer the D3 version. I also don't like the Pain Elemental because it's too similiar to Cacodemon. DOOM 64 version is the best. Arachnotron is kind of weird - I like its D3 concept art though. In D3 I don't like Cacodemon too much, I think it's boring. I also don't see the point of Ticks, they have ugly 2D legs and are completely useless because there are already Trites that are essentially the same but better. I love the D3 Pinky design though, it's awesome.

Old Post 01-17-14 13:09 #
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Da Werecat
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DooM_RO said:
The other monsters are kind of samey though. Probably because they're all gray.

Art direction shifted considerably during the last years of development. Early monsters are drawing inspiration from human anatomy with animalistic features, at the same time trying to be "faceless" by various means. Note how hellknight and pinky don't have any visible eyes while imp has too many.

Later monsters are tilting towards more generic "demonic" design.


Shaviro said:
It's true that the grey monsters of Doom3 blend more in with the surroundings in that game, but hint hint; Your game is too "grey" :)

Generally, if you want to emphasize lighting, you should go with less colors.


Shaviro said:
All that said, I must pay some respect to the Revenant remake. I guess you could say it's at least as good if not better than the original. Great job on that one.

Coincidentally, it's one of the least menacing designs in the entire game. It's so slick and purdy that it's not scary at all.

Old Post 01-17-14 13:33 #
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Piper Maru
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DooM_RO said:


That's exactly how I feel. The other monsters are kind of samey though. Probably because they're all gray. The Arch Vile for instance could have been sickly yellow.

Here is a fantastic modern interpretation of the classic Doom imp posted on Id's twitter. https://twitter.com/DOOM/status/423...0097920/photo/1



While I understand where your coming from, I actually like the Arch Vile from Doom 3. I've always felt that the Arch Vile looked like Pumpkinhead, and even moreso in Doom 3. But that's just my thought on the matter.

Also, that Imp design is pretty cool!

Old Post 01-17-14 19:05 #
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MajorRawne
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I don't understand why they keep re-designing the monsters every time a new version of Doom comes out.

Ever since Doom 64, in which I was confronted by a flying turd with arms (Cacodemon), a lump of plasticine that would have looked bad in Donkey Kong Country (pink demon) and someone waddling with the shits (Knight/Baron), the Doom bestiary seems to have taken a turn for the embarrassing.

I don't see the need to keep re-inventing the wheel with these things. It's like how every time there was a Star Trek TOS or TNG film, they kept wearing different uniforms using ships whose interiors and weapons capability were just made up for each specific film. I don't understand what's so tough about consistency and continuity. Only someone devoid of wit and imagination would struggle to use the same species of demon in a new game without radically altering them into something different. After all, do Covenant Elites sprout 4 arms, 2 heads and in-built plasma flamethrowers in their arse by the time you get to Halo 4, or are they consistently the same species with minor edits to their armour?

If the changes are going to be fundamental, just create a new species altogether and avoid annoying long-term fans who are always the best hope for a franchise's future.

Old Post 01-17-14 20:22 #
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Da Werecat
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MajorRawne said:
avoid annoying long-term fans

I really like how this phrase can mean two completely different things.

Old Post 01-17-14 22:09 #
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MajorRawne
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Why is there a perception that long term fans are a bad thing? Fair enough, if there are psychotically jealous, controlling fan-bitches, like some of the girls who prevent Supernatural from having female characters.

But it's different if fans know a character or situation, then find it being twisted out of all recognition just to try to sell to a new fan base. What about protecting your existing fanbase? They're your customers, their needs should be taken into account.

There seems to be a fascination in fixing what isn't broken.

Old Post 01-17-14 22:25 #
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Da Werecat
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When your engines evolve so drastically, your style has to adapt accordingly. Fans rarely know (or care) about details like that. Besides, strict guidelines are generally boring.

Artists will create. Fans will whine about every pixel and how it ruins everything. Business as usual.

Old Post 01-17-14 22:48 #
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MajorRawne
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Well this goes right to the heart of the question: classic versus modern. I personally respect continuity, so I'm all for evolution rather than revolution. Enhance the way a monster looks to reflect today's technology, but why completely change something? Some of the Doom monsters are iconic. Why make them unrecognisable - such as shrinking the Cacodemon for Doom 3, or making it look like Ghostbusters monster for Doom 64? What's wrong with a Cacodemon being a Cacodemon? Use the Borg as an example. The makeup might have got a lot better since their first appearance, but the Borg are the Borg, whether they're appearing in a game or facing Captain Janeway or Captain Archer.

Old Post 01-17-14 23:23 #
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Da Werecat
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MajorRawne said:
Enhance the way a monster looks to reflect today's technology, but why completely change something?

Reimagining stuff is fun.

Old Post 01-18-14 00:27 #
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Piper Maru
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I think some Doom fans can be a bit nuts about monster design. For example, on deviant art there were people bickering about someone's "classic" interpretation of the Imp. According to those comments, the chin was too pointy and not Doomy enough. I don't even know what the hell that means. I love the original monster designs, I love the Doom 64 designs and I love the Doom 3 designs. There is not a single version of the monsters that I don't like. If people like them, great. If people don't like them, great.

Old Post 01-18-14 08:46 #
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Da Werecat
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It would be safer to call the drawing "Weird Impy Thing". The creature would've passed as subspecies or something.

Old Post 01-18-14 12:00 #
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MFG38
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In a way, the Doom 3 monsters look creepier, so I'd say those.

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Old Post 01-18-14 12:23 #
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MajorRawne
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I've just been reading interviews about why they changed the monster design for Doom 64. As is fairly obvious, they were trying to do something new to sell to people who didn't play Doom. They may have been trying to keep things fresh for existing players, but they state they implemented new levels and teleporting items specifically to surprise veterans.

I was wondering though. If they changed the design so radically, why DIDN'T they create new species of demon? I'm guessing a lack of time, or lack of willingness to alienate people who wanted to fight against the original cast, or maybe resistance from id Software.

Old Post 01-18-14 14:04 #
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Da Werecat
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You won't breed nearly identical monsters just because someone would whine about the name.

"Cacodemon", "Cacodemon With Hands", "Pinky Demon Rendered From A 3D Model With A Little Too Shiny Material For MajorRawne's Taste".

"A Doomy Game That We Had To Rename Because One Of Our Overly Ambitious Artists Drew The Imp With Less Spikes Than In One True Doom Game".

Old Post 01-18-14 14:33 #
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