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ShotgunZombie23
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DoomUK said:

No.

There's fittingly B-movie-esque gore, and then there's retarded schlock like Brutal Doom.



I will never understand how there can possibly be Doom fans out there who do not like Brutal Doom.

Old Post 12-02-12 13:33 #
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Touchdown
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I don't like Brutal DOOM. When I hear people saying that it brings the essence of DOOM or that this is what DOOM 4 should be... ugh. It's fun on its own but just like DOOM comic, it's an extremely exaggerated version of DOOM.

Old Post 12-02-12 13:44 #
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ShotgunZombie23
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Touchdown said:
I don't like Brutal DOOM. When I hear people saying that it brings the essence of DOOM or that this is what DOOM 4 should be... ugh. It's fun on its own but just like DOOM comic, it's an extremely exaggerated version of DOOM.


Guns are loud IRL. Guns can shoot off limbs IRL. Guns can rip open someone's stomach and spill their intestine IRL. People scream in pain and horror when they've been shot...IRL.

I wouldn't say it's an "exaggerated" Doom as much as it's a completed Doom(to an extent). Had id Software had the time and had computers been powerful enough I have no doubt they would have included more death animations and more realistic sounding weapons. <-How are those two things bad?

Don't get me wrong I enjoy playing vanilla Doom every now and again for the tamer experience and there are things about Brutal that I don't find necessary(executions, extra marines, and taunts). Those things don't have to be part of the Brutal experience if you don't want them to though.

^This seems off topic for this Thread^ but I'd like to reiterate that I would very much like aggressive sounding weaponry and multiple death animations/gibs in Doom 4.

Old Post 12-02-12 14:27 #
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DooM_RO
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ShotgunZombie23 said:


Guns are loud IRL. Guns can shoot off limbs IRL. Guns can rip open someone's stomach and spill their intestine IRL. People scream in pain and horror when they've been shot...IRL.

I wouldn't say it's an "exaggerated" Doom as much as it's a completed Doom(to an extent). Had id Software had the time and had computers been powerful enough I have no doubt they would have included more death animations and more realistic sounding weapons. <-How are those two things bad?

Don't get me wrong I enjoy playing vanilla Doom every now and again for the tamer experience and there are things about Brutal that I don't find necessary(executions, extra marines, and taunts). Those things don't have to be part of the Brutal experience if you don't want them to though.

^This seems off topic for this Thread^ but I'd like to reiterate that I would very much like aggressive sounding weaponry and multiple death animations/gibs in Doom 4.



YES! This is exactly how I feel! Doom 3 may have flaws in many areas, but more often than not I never felt that Id has really botched anything in it EXCEPT the combat, which was extremely disappointing. It just didn't feel satisfying and the shotgun was pretty useless. Thankfully RAGE had masterfully done weapons and combat, it almost seems that Id was conscious of (some) of the flaws in Doom 3 and I expect even more from Doom 4.

It would be cool if there was a monster that gained different powers based on the limbs you decide to shoot off. For instance: if you shoot of his legs, he gains levitation, if you shoot off his arms he gets 2x speed and if you shoot off all his limbs his head violently detaches from his body(like the lost soul in Doom 3) and gains a kamikaze ability(although it is quite fragile). Think of the possibilities!!!!

Old Post 12-05-12 15:31 #
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DeimosKnight
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Doom 4 should start off where Doom 2 left off.

It should bring back the original art style of Doom 1+2, but beefier and amplified.

The Pinky Demon, for instance, should be a hulking, tank sized version of the original. It would be dusty whitish pink, and very muscular and formidable back legs. It would be possible to hide from it, except he has the ability to smell where you are. If you're hiding in a building, he'd tear the wall apart. If you're on the rooftop, he'll crawl up to get you. The ultimate test of Doom 4 should be where the hero has to fight a whole legion of these things in the city.

Doom 4 should also bring back the original former Humans, and they should behave more like demonically possessed human soldiers than mere zombies. Fighting against them would be like fighting a demonic Rainbow Six squad.

If the game is set on huge cityscapes, the player should be allowed to explore the city and enter the buildings like on huge hub system. When all the fighting's done on the city, then the finale takes place back in space where the last of portal of Hell is. The last boss should put the Baphomet and Shub-Niggurath to utter shame.

Advanced A.I. and gameplay would be nice.

Old Post 12-06-12 07:15 #
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DoomUK
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ShotgunZombie23 said:
Guns are loud IRL. Guns can shoot off limbs IRL. Guns can rip open someone's stomach and spill their intestine IRL. People scream in pain and horror when they've been shot...IRL.

Right, but how is any of this enhancing the game? If realistic viscera is so important, why do some (adult-rated) games that involve shooting things forgo extreme blood and guts entirely (Mass Effect and Crysis* immediately spring to mind, but there are plenty others)?

I don't mean to misrepresent myself: I'm not some fuddy-duddy who thinks violence in games and other mediums is universally unnecessary. As I've said previously, Doom sans gore just wouldn't have quite the same appeal. But there's a lot of depth to Doom besides the superficial - if satisfying - appeal of shooting things, and absurd amounts of carnage isn't adding anything worthwhile to the overall experience. It needs to be contextualised, shall we say.

*Edited for using horribly bad example :p

Last edited by DoomUK on 12-06-12 at 11:09

Old Post 12-06-12 10:35 #
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idSoftware981
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There needs to be blood and gore... Most shooters these days lack gore.... except for maybe Black Ops 2... MAYBE! I'm not saying it does because it's only in Tranzit. Even then.... most of today's shooters not that much gore.

GORE NEEDS TO BE IN DOOM 4!

Old Post 12-08-12 22:28 #
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Caffeine Freak
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DoomUK said:

Right, but how is any of this enhancing the game? If realistic viscera is so important, why do some (adult-rated) games that involve shooting things forgo extreme blood and guts entirely (Mass Effect and Crysis* immediately spring to mind, but there are plenty others)?

I don't mean to misrepresent myself: I'm not some fuddy-duddy who thinks violence in games and other mediums is universally unnecessary. As I've said previously, Doom sans gore just wouldn't have quite the same appeal. But there's a lot of depth to Doom besides the superficial - if satisfying - appeal of shooting things, and absurd amounts of carnage isn't adding anything worthwhile to the overall experience. It needs to be contextualised, shall we say.

*Edited for using horribly bad example :p



Crysis would do well to add a lot more blood, in my opinion. The Ceph aren't fun to kill, they're just globs of grape jelly encased in armor that explode when they die. The human enemies are more fun to fight. It doesn't have to be a gore-fest by any means, but I've never gotten much of a thrill from killing the aliens in that game.

But anyway, I'd argue that the original Doom games were more about B-movie thrills than they were anything else---hence the Satanic imagery and excessive use of gore, both with enemies and in the environmental decoration. The fact that the weapons and monsters were so well-balanced helped make it a FUN B-movie experience.

In the case of Doom 4 however, there needs to be more of a feeling of realism attached to the violence---in that sense, I agree with you about it needing to be contextualized. Constantly drenching the screen with buckets of blood throughout the game isn't the answer, it needs to be balanced with things that draw the player into the world he's walking through, and make him care about it.

The lack of a well-told or coherent story in classic Doom never bothered me, because as I said, it's really a game that's about B-movie thrills more than anything else. Doom 3 took a step in the right direction with a story that was told better(still left a lot to be desired), but weapons that weren't quite as well-balanced as they had been in classic Doom, as well as combat that was overall drastically different from the originals. Doom 4 needs to do a lot better in the story department that any of it's predecessors, and have combat that exceeds them as well.

Old Post 12-09-12 02:53 #
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DooM_RO
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Caffeine Freak said:


Crysis would do well to add a lot more blood, in my opinion. The Ceph aren't fun to kill, they're just globs of grape jelly encased in armor that explode when they die. The human enemies are more fun to fight. It doesn't have to be a gore-fest by any means, but I've never gotten much of a thrill from killing the aliens in that game.

But anyway, I'd argue that the original Doom games were more about B-movie thrills than they were anything else---hence the Satanic imagery and excessive use of gore, both with enemies and in the environmental decoration. The fact that the weapons and monsters were so well-balanced helped make it a FUN B-movie experience.

In the case of Doom 4 however, there needs to be more of a feeling of realism attached to the violence---in that sense, I agree with you about it needing to be contextualized. Constantly drenching the screen with buckets of blood throughout the game isn't the answer, it needs to be balanced with things that draw the player into the world he's walking through, and make him care about it.

The lack of a well-told or coherent story in classic Doom never bothered me, because as I said, it's really a game that's about B-movie thrills more than anything else. Doom 3 took a step in the right direction with a story that was told better(still left a lot to be desired), but weapons that weren't quite as well-balanced as they had been in classic Doom, as well as combat that was overall drastically different from the originals. Doom 4 needs to do a lot better in the story department that any of it's predecessors, and have combat that exceeds them as well.



I think good STORYTELLING is far more important in a Doom game than having a well-written story. In a Doom game, I don't want to be annoyed by some pretentious evil guy breaking the flow of the game. Instead, I would make the story simple but with enjoyable dialogue and top notch voice acting and focus on good storytelling.

In a way the abstract levels in the original Doom were a way of telling a story and could be interpreted in different ways because of that. This can't be done anymore without making it feel weird so instead I would hire an award winning writer - which they already have from what I've heard (Graham Joyce) and focus on visual storytelling and telling side-plots through the PDA. Bioshock did this really well.

The major advantage of this kind of storytelling is that you give the player the freedom to get as much story as he wants without constantly annoying him. It would also encourage exploration.

Old Post 12-09-12 06:51 #
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Caffeine Freak
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The audio logs in Doom 3 were also quite effective in telling a story. I'd agree that Betruger was a bit of a cheesy character that the game could have done without. I'd honestly have preferred there being no human conspiracy behind the invasion at all.

I agree that the story needs to flow more naturally in the game, where it's something that the player doesn't need to stop and research, it's something that's presented to him.

To be honest, I never really got a sense of story progression from the level design of the original Doom games. I realize this is largely due to the technical limits of the engine, but I mean, Doom II never makes it totally clear that you're in Hell until the last text screen in the game, after you kill the final boss. Aside from some earlier vague intermission screen where it says you 'plunge through to the other side'(um, okay?)there just isn't a lot to indicate that "that was earth and this is hell". The level design is still largely the same type of abstract stuff you've been seeing throughout the game, and while it does take on a more hellish appearance at that point, there's still a ton of non-organic tech textures and other man-made things that only add to the confusion.

Old Post 12-09-12 19:52 #
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DooM_RO
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Caffeine Freak said:
The audio logs in Doom 3 were also quite effective in telling a story. I'd agree that Betruger was a bit of a cheesy character that the game could have done without. I'd honestly have preferred there being no human conspiracy behind the invasion at all.

I agree that the story needs to flow more naturally in the game, where it's something that the player doesn't need to stop and research, it's something that's presented to him.

To be honest, I never really got a sense of story progression from the level design of the original Doom games. I realize this is largely due to the technical limits of the engine, but I mean, Doom II never makes it totally clear that you're in Hell until the last text screen in the game, after you kill the final boss. Aside from some earlier vague intermission screen where it says you 'plunge through to the other side'(um, okay?)there just isn't a lot to indicate that "that was earth and this is hell". The level design is still largely the same type of abstract stuff you've been seeing throughout the game, and while it does take on a more hellish appearance at that point, there's still a ton of non-organic tech textures and other man-made things that only add to the confusion.



I was actually referring to E1. After E1, I feel that the architecture of the levels becomes less coherent. Doom 2 takes a further step backwards and the levels are generally much more nonsensical . Of course there are exceptions like E2M7 and a lot of the TNT levels.

And yes, the PDAs in Doom 3 are a very effective tool for telling a story, but I never really cared about what happened tot he people there. Now that Id has an award winning author helping them, we could actually get some quality stuff.

Old Post 12-09-12 19:59 #
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Agentbromsnor
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DooM_RO said:


I was actually referring to E1. After E1, I feel that the architecture of the levels becomes less coherent. Doom 2 takes a further step backwards and the levels are generally much more nonsensical . Of course there are exceptions like E2M7 and a lot of the TNT levels.

And yes, the PDAs in Doom 3 are a very effective tool for telling a story, but I never really cared about what happened tot he people there. Now that Id has an award winning author helping them, we could actually get some quality stuff.



You really think that the PDA's were very good? Personally, I think they didn't add any importance to the game at all. In all my Doom 3 playthroughs, I listened and read just a couple of them, but all they contain is people bitching how hard their job is, and how unfair their boss is treating them, and how they feel uncomfortable working there (ooohh, ominous!). I mean come on, that shit got stale after System Shock 2.

Old Post 12-10-12 11:30 #
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Avoozl
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Doom 3 was the only game I have ever experienced the PDA thing from, I am yet to find it stale. :P

Old Post 12-10-12 12:16 #
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DooM_RO
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Agentbromsnor said:


You really think that the PDA's were very good? Personally, I think they didn't add any importance to the game at all. In all my Doom 3 playthroughs, I listened and read just a couple of them, but all they contain is people bitching how hard their job is, and how unfair their boss is treating them, and how they feel uncomfortable working there (ooohh, ominous!). I mean come on, that shit got stale after System Shock 2.



That's not what I meant. What I said is that the PDAs are a very effective tool for storytelling but it wasn't very well executed in Doom 3 because of what you said. Now that they have an award-winning writer on board, we could finally have some good stuff.

Old Post 12-10-12 12:22 #
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Caffeine Freak
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Agentbromsnor said:


You really think that the PDA's were very good? Personally, I think they didn't add any importance to the game at all. In all my Doom 3 playthroughs, I listened and read just a couple of them, but all they contain is people bitching how hard their job is, and how unfair their boss is treating them, and how they feel uncomfortable working there (ooohh, ominous!). I mean come on, that shit got stale after System Shock 2.



My point was that in terms of narrative technique, the PDAs were certainly a step above 'THE HORRENDOUS VISAGE OF THE BIGGEST TURD YOU'VE EVER SEEN BLAH BLAH'.

Old Post 12-11-12 01:25 #
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idSoftware981
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DOOM 4 should be a leap forward in innovation. It should be a game that we look on 20 years from now and say "I remember playing DOOM 4" or go like "Wow, that was a technical and gameplay achievement.".

Old Post 12-11-12 01:38 #
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DoomUK
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Agentbromsnor said:
I mean come on, that shit got stale after System Shock 2.

I don't agree. It's a long-held survival horror trope which pre-dates SS2 and serves the purpose of conveying an appropriate amount of exposition along with some superfluous backstory about the people who dwelled in the environments.

It's not like you're forced to read them, or watch those downloadable videos about the facility's safety protocols, the discovery of the ancient tablets and whatnot. But they "flesh out" the world for the more curious player without being intrusive.

Old Post 12-11-12 10:11 #
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idSoftware981
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DoomUK said:

I don't agree. It's a long-held survival horror trope which pre-dates SS2 and serves the purpose of conveying an appropriate amount of exposition along with some superfluous backstory about the people who dwelled in the environments.

It's not like you're forced to read them, or watch those downloadable videos about the facility's safety protocols, the discovery of the ancient tablets and whatnot. But they "flesh out" the world for the more curious player without being intrusive.



He has a point there. Resident Evil 1 started the trend way back in 1996 with typewriters and journals left around....

DOOM 4 should have a sense of atmosphere, immersion, blood and gore, and it should scare us, excite us, and make us laugh! It should also have ambient and heavy metal soundtracks. Which reminds me... A full-color long instruction manual would be nice! NONE OF THESE 2 PAGE BLACK AND WHITE GARBAGE WHICH DOESN'T EVEN HAVE A DROP OF COLOR IN IT!

Old Post 12-11-12 12:48 #
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Agentbromsnor
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DoomUK said:

I don't agree. It's a long-held survival horror trope which pre-dates SS2 and serves the purpose of conveying an appropriate amount of exposition along with some superfluous backstory about the people who dwelled in the environments.

It's not like you're forced to read them, or watch those downloadable videos about the facility's safety protocols, the discovery of the ancient tablets and whatnot. But they "flesh out" the world for the more curious player without being intrusive.



Like I said, I didn't think they added anything to the overall story in Doom 3. In System Shock 2, they served a purpose, as well as in the first BioShock. They always explained some parts of the story that was relevant to the level you were in, whereas in Doom 3 they were just there to frighten you a bit. But instead they simply bored you to death.

I think one fact that helped System Shock 2 and BioShock is that Kevin Levine has a history as a writer, so the overall message is more fleshed out and communicated much better to the player.

Sure I don't have to read it, but if it (in my humble opinion) doesn't add anything, why not just scrap it from the game? Its just there to pollute the story, and while Doom's story isn't exactly revolutionary by itself, there's no need to stack another on top of it.


DooM_RO said:


That's not what I meant. What I said is that the PDAs are a very effective tool for storytelling but it wasn't very well executed in Doom 3 because of what you said. Now that they have an award-winning writer on board, we could finally have some good stuff.



Lets hope for the best then.


idSoftware981 said:
DOOM 4 should be a leap forward in innovation. It should be a game that we look on 20 years from now and say "I remember playing DOOM 4" or go like "Wow, that was a technical and gameplay achievement.".


You sir, are a tool. I hereby officially declare you the Mitt Romney of Doomworld.

Old Post 12-11-12 13:51 #
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Caffeine Freak
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DoomUK said:

I don't agree. It's a long-held survival horror trope which pre-dates SS2 and serves the purpose of conveying an appropriate amount of exposition along with some superfluous backstory about the people who dwelled in the environments.

It's not like you're forced to read them, or watch those downloadable videos about the facility's safety protocols, the discovery of the ancient tablets and whatnot. But they "flesh out" the world for the more curious player without being intrusive.



Agreed. I can personally attest that to me, they made the Doom 3 world feel like more of a place where people had actually lived and worked prior to the invasion. I'm not saying the game didn't still have it's faults in this area, but the PDAs helped.

Old Post 12-11-12 18:04 #
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DooM_RO
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Here's hoping it won't end up like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOHyD49DaeA

Old Post 12-11-12 18:18 #
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Agentbromsnor
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Caffeine Freak said:


Agreed. I can personally attest that to me, they made the Doom 3 world feel like more of a place where people had actually lived and worked prior to the invasion. I'm not saying the game didn't still have it's faults in this area, but the PDAs helped.



I'm not argueing that the PDA's were a bad idea. Its just that the way its executed in Doom 3 seems redundant to me. Going back to System Shock 2 and BioShock again: every PDA or audiolog made sense. I'm not getting that from Doom 3. After I listened to yet another 'spooky and foreshadowing' PDA-log, I got the idea that it's supposed to be scary, but it didn't spark any emotion for me.

I like a 'scary' Doom game. In fact, I think PSX Doom is a múch more effective Doom game than any of the other ports and sequels, simply because it ditches the kiddy Bobby Prince soundtrack and replaces it with an atmospheric one that fits the theme of the game. However, when you implement something that is supposed to compliment that atmosphere (such as PDA's), it should provide the player with information without padding it with nonesense.

Old Post 12-11-12 19:38 #
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idSoftware981
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Agentbromsnor said:


Like I said, I didn't think they added anything to the overall story in Doom 3. In System Shock 2, they served a purpose, as well as in the first BioShock. They always explained some parts of the story that was relevant to the level you were in, whereas in Doom 3 they were just there to frighten you a bit. But instead they simply bored you to death.

I think one fact that helped System Shock 2 and BioShock is that Kevin Levine has a history as a writer, so the overall message is more fleshed out and communicated much better to the player.

Sure I don't have to read it, but if it (in my humble opinion) doesn't add anything, why not just scrap it from the game? Its just there to pollute the story, and while Doom's story isn't exactly revolutionary by itself, there's no need to stack another on top of it.



Lets hope for the best then.



You sir, are a tool. I hereby officially declare you the Mitt Romney of Doomworld.




Mitt Romney?! Why the hell do you bring politics into this?! It's none of your business if I'm a Republican or Democrat. Anyways, on topic. I think that DOOM 4 should be a leap forward in engine technology.


Motion blur
SSAO
Bloom
Shading
Lighting
Iron Sights
Blood and Gore
Realistic Physics

Old Post 12-11-12 20:52 #
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Caffeine Freak
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idSoftware981 said:

Lighting



Oh GAWD, yes. I really want lighting in Doom 4, it would be a huge leap forward in rendering technology.

Old Post 12-11-12 22:03 #
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Agentbromsnor
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idSoftware981 said:



Mitt Romney?! Why the hell do you bring politics into this?! It's none of your business if I'm a Republican or Democrat. Anyways, on topic. I think that DOOM 4 should be a leap forward in engine technology.


Motion blur
SSAO
Bloom
Shading
Lighting
Iron Sights
Blood and Gore
Realistic Physics



I called you Mitt Romney because your opinion is just as flip floppity.

Also, why are you bringing up engine technology when its crystal clear that you know NOTHING about that?

- Motion blur? As far as I know this has been a feature for at least half a decade now.
- Bloom? You mean that function that has been raping every single game that tried to imply 'epic' graphics?
- Shading? What game in 2012 DOESN'T support shading nowadays??
- Lighting? Again, what game doesn't have proper lighting effects nowadays?
- Iron Sights? Like every run-of-the-mill military shooter has? Sounds like a really bad fucking idea.
- Blood and gore? We're talking about Doom here, ofcourse its going to have blood and gore you tool.
- Realistic physics? Doesn't EVERY game on the market have realistic physics nowadays?

These are the things that Doom 4 has to concieve in order to push the boundries? I'm seriously thinking that you're either a very gifted troll, or that somebody must have dropped you on the head when you were a baby, because I've never seen anybody this retarded on the internet in a long time.

If you really ARE serious, please don't bring up stuff that you don't know anything about. It saves me a lot of facepalming.

Old Post 12-11-12 22:26 #
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TB171
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idSoftware981 said:



Mitt Romney?! Why the hell do you bring politics into this?! It's none of your business if I'm a Republican or Democrat!



I beleive it was a joke. Don't take it too seriously.


Agentbromsnor said:

I'm not argueing that the PDA's were a bad idea. Its just that the way its executed in Doom 3 seems redundant to me. Going back to System Shock 2 and BioShock again: every PDA or audiolog made sense. I'm not getting that from Doom 3. After I listened to yet another 'spooky and foreshadowing' PDA-log, I got the idea that it's supposed to be scary, but it didn't spark any emotion for me.



Too think of it now, I would really like to see iD incorporate some some sort of audio log system like Bioshock did and added to the atmosphere and gave you a little background on the story and characters etc. And if they do this idea (hopefully), PLEASE GOD don't make every log the same like Doom 3 did.

Something else I thought about was that they do a Save Game/Load Game system for PC and Consoles instead of the auto-saves which Doom 3 BFG did, and pretty much rendered saving the game manually useless. For me the reason modern FPS are so easy, is because the game saves for you every time you enter a new room *cough* Black Ops *cough*.

Like I said before a while back in this thread, I'm not really expecting a whole lot from Doom 4...

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Old Post 12-12-12 20:29 #
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Krispy
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Doom 4 should have interactive (interactable?) dead bodies. To chainsaw and stuff. Gotta love gore.

Old Post 12-13-12 00:46 #
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idSoftware981
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Doom 4 should have new gameplay features....

I don't know about you but I think you should be able to grab a Zombieman in a headlock then pull out his pistol and shoot the other bad guys with the hostage Zombieman's pistol....

Or more interactivity with dead body parts....

Old Post 12-13-12 01:54 #
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DooM_RO
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TB171 said:


I beleive it was a joke. Don't take it too seriously.



Too think of it now, I would really like to see iD incorporate some some sort of audio log system like Bioshock did and added to the atmosphere and gave you a little background on the story and characters etc. And if they do this idea (hopefully), PLEASE GOD don't make every log the same like Doom 3 did.

Something else I thought about was that they do a Save Game/Load Game system for PC and Consoles instead of the auto-saves which Doom 3 BFG did, and pretty much rendered saving the game manually useless. For me the reason modern FPS are so easy, is because the game saves for you every time you enter a new room *cough* Black Ops *cough*.

Like I said before a while back in this thread, I'm not really expecting a whole lot from Doom 4...



I donțt see how quicksaving makes the game easy. If you can save at any point, you also have the tendency to abuse quicksaving, therefore making the game too easy. On the hardest difficulty (not nightmare) the game should have Iron man mode just like in the new Xcom game. The game only saves when you exit and if you die, you die.

Old Post 12-13-12 06:29 #
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idSoftware981
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If anyone is reading this.

One thing I love about any first-person shooter is immersion. One of the reasons I love Far Cry Instincts Predator and Far Cry 3 and DOOM is because the maps were impressive and really showed off the engine and are just fun.

It's not about making a game heavily scripted and boring as heck. It's about making a game fun for generations to come.

I just love blasting Iron Maiden, Metallica, Megadeth, Black Sabbath, The Who, and Rush while playing Far Cry 3!

:D

So DOOM 4 should really have a good atmosphere, immersion, and should be about fun not about trying to be like an interactive movie...

Old Post 12-14-12 23:24 #
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