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DoomUK said:

No.

There's fittingly B-movie-esque gore, and then there's retarded schlock like Brutal Doom.

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Touchdown said:
I don't like Brutal DOOM. When I hear people saying that it brings the essence of DOOM or that this is what DOOM 4 should be... ugh. It's fun on its own but just like DOOM comic, it's an extremely exaggerated version of DOOM.

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ShotgunZombie23 said:


Guns are loud IRL. Guns can shoot off limbs IRL. Guns can rip open someone's stomach and spill their intestine IRL. People scream in pain and horror when they've been shot...IRL.

I wouldn't say it's an "exaggerated" Doom as much as it's a completed Doom(to an extent). Had id Software had the time and had computers been powerful enough I have no doubt they would have included more death animations and more realistic sounding weapons. <-How are those two things bad?

Don't get me wrong I enjoy playing vanilla Doom every now and again for the tamer experience and there are things about Brutal that I don't find necessary(executions, extra marines, and taunts). Those things don't have to be part of the Brutal experience if you don't want them to though.

^This seems off topic for this Thread^ but I'd like to reiterate that I would very much like aggressive sounding weaponry and multiple death animations/gibs in Doom 4.

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ShotgunZombie23 said:
Guns are loud IRL. Guns can shoot off limbs IRL. Guns can rip open someone's stomach and spill their intestine IRL. People scream in pain and horror when they've been shot...IRL.

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DoomUK said:

Right, but how is any of this enhancing the game? If realistic viscera is so important, why do some (adult-rated) games that involve shooting things forgo extreme blood and guts entirely (Mass Effect and Crysis* immediately spring to mind, but there are plenty others)?

I don't mean to misrepresent myself: I'm not some fuddy-duddy who thinks violence in games and other mediums is universally unnecessary. As I've said previously, Doom sans gore just wouldn't have quite the same appeal. But there's a lot of depth to Doom besides the superficial - if satisfying - appeal of shooting things, and absurd amounts of carnage isn't adding anything worthwhile to the overall experience. It needs to be contextualised, shall we say.

*Edited for using horribly bad example :p

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Caffeine Freak said:


Crysis would do well to add a lot more blood, in my opinion. The Ceph aren't fun to kill, they're just globs of grape jelly encased in armor that explode when they die. The human enemies are more fun to fight. It doesn't have to be a gore-fest by any means, but I've never gotten much of a thrill from killing the aliens in that game.

But anyway, I'd argue that the original Doom games were more about B-movie thrills than they were anything else---hence the Satanic imagery and excessive use of gore, both with enemies and in the environmental decoration. The fact that the weapons and monsters were so well-balanced helped make it a FUN B-movie experience.

In the case of Doom 4 however, there needs to be more of a feeling of realism attached to the violence---in that sense, I agree with you about it needing to be contextualized. Constantly drenching the screen with buckets of blood throughout the game isn't the answer, it needs to be balanced with things that draw the player into the world he's walking through, and make him care about it.

The lack of a well-told or coherent story in classic Doom never bothered me, because as I said, it's really a game that's about B-movie thrills more than anything else. Doom 3 took a step in the right direction with a story that was told better(still left a lot to be desired), but weapons that weren't quite as well-balanced as they had been in classic Doom, as well as combat that was overall drastically different from the originals. Doom 4 needs to do a lot better in the story department that any of it's predecessors, and have combat that exceeds them as well.

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Caffeine Freak said:
The audio logs in Doom 3 were also quite effective in telling a story. I'd agree that Betruger was a bit of a cheesy character that the game could have done without. I'd honestly have preferred there being no human conspiracy behind the invasion at all.

I agree that the story needs to flow more naturally in the game, where it's something that the player doesn't need to stop and research, it's something that's presented to him.

To be honest, I never really got a sense of story progression from the level design of the original Doom games. I realize this is largely due to the technical limits of the engine, but I mean, Doom II never makes it totally clear that you're in Hell until the last text screen in the game, after you kill the final boss. Aside from some earlier vague intermission screen where it says you 'plunge through to the other side'(um, okay?)there just isn't a lot to indicate that "that was earth and this is hell". The level design is still largely the same type of abstract stuff you've been seeing throughout the game, and while it does take on a more hellish appearance at that point, there's still a ton of non-organic tech textures and other man-made things that only add to the confusion.

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DooM_RO said:


I was actually referring to E1. After E1, I feel that the architecture of the levels becomes less coherent. Doom 2 takes a further step backwards and the levels are generally much more nonsensical . Of course there are exceptions like E2M7 and a lot of the TNT levels.

And yes, the PDAs in Doom 3 are a very effective tool for telling a story, but I never really cared about what happened tot he people there. Now that Id has an award winning author helping them, we could actually get some quality stuff.

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Agentbromsnor said:


You really think that the PDA's were very good? Personally, I think they didn't add any importance to the game at all. In all my Doom 3 playthroughs, I listened and read just a couple of them, but all they contain is people bitching how hard their job is, and how unfair their boss is treating them, and how they feel uncomfortable working there (ooohh, ominous!). I mean come on, that shit got stale after System Shock 2.

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Agentbromsnor said:


You really think that the PDA's were very good? Personally, I think they didn't add any importance to the game at all. In all my Doom 3 playthroughs, I listened and read just a couple of them, but all they contain is people bitching how hard their job is, and how unfair their boss is treating them, and how they feel uncomfortable working there (ooohh, ominous!). I mean come on, that shit got stale after System Shock 2.

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Agentbromsnor said:
I mean come on, that shit got stale after System Shock 2.

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DoomUK said:

I don't agree. It's a long-held survival horror trope which pre-dates SS2 and serves the purpose of conveying an appropriate amount of exposition along with some superfluous backstory about the people who dwelled in the environments.

It's not like you're forced to read them, or watch those downloadable videos about the facility's safety protocols, the discovery of the ancient tablets and whatnot. But they "flesh out" the world for the more curious player without being intrusive.

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DoomUK said:

I don't agree. It's a long-held survival horror trope which pre-dates SS2 and serves the purpose of conveying an appropriate amount of exposition along with some superfluous backstory about the people who dwelled in the environments.

It's not like you're forced to read them, or watch those downloadable videos about the facility's safety protocols, the discovery of the ancient tablets and whatnot. But they "flesh out" the world for the more curious player without being intrusive.

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DooM_RO said:


That's not what I meant. What I said is that the PDAs are a very effective tool for storytelling but it wasn't very well executed in Doom 3 because of what you said. Now that they have an award-winning writer on board, we could finally have some good stuff.

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idSoftware981 said:
DOOM 4 should be a leap forward in innovation. It should be a game that we look on 20 years from now and say "I remember playing DOOM 4" or go like "Wow, that was a technical and gameplay achievement.".

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DoomUK said:

I don't agree. It's a long-held survival horror trope which pre-dates SS2 and serves the purpose of conveying an appropriate amount of exposition along with some superfluous backstory about the people who dwelled in the environments.

It's not like you're forced to read them, or watch those downloadable videos about the facility's safety protocols, the discovery of the ancient tablets and whatnot. But they "flesh out" the world for the more curious player without being intrusive.

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Caffeine Freak said:


Agreed. I can personally attest that to me, they made the Doom 3 world feel like more of a place where people had actually lived and worked prior to the invasion. I'm not saying the game didn't still have it's faults in this area, but the PDAs helped.

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Agentbromsnor said:


Like I said, I didn't think they added anything to the overall story in Doom 3. In System Shock 2, they served a purpose, as well as in the first BioShock. They always explained some parts of the story that was relevant to the level you were in, whereas in Doom 3 they were just there to frighten you a bit. But instead they simply bored you to death.

I think one fact that helped System Shock 2 and BioShock is that Kevin Levine has a history as a writer, so the overall message is more fleshed out and communicated much better to the player.

Sure I don't have to read it, but if it (in my humble opinion) doesn't add anything, why not just scrap it from the game? Its just there to pollute the story, and while Doom's story isn't exactly revolutionary by itself, there's no need to stack another on top of it.



Lets hope for the best then.



You sir, are a tool. I hereby officially declare you the Mitt Romney of Doomworld.

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idSoftware981 said:

Lighting

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idSoftware981 said:



Mitt Romney?! Why the hell do you bring politics into this?! It's none of your business if I'm a Republican or Democrat. Anyways, on topic. I think that DOOM 4 should be a leap forward in engine technology.


Motion blur
SSAO
Bloom
Shading
Lighting
Iron Sights
Blood and Gore
Realistic Physics

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idSoftware981 said:



Mitt Romney?! Why the hell do you bring politics into this?! It's none of your business if I'm a Republican or Democrat!

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Agentbromsnor said:

I'm not argueing that the PDA's were a bad idea. Its just that the way its executed in Doom 3 seems redundant to me. Going back to System Shock 2 and BioShock again: every PDA or audiolog made sense. I'm not getting that from Doom 3. After I listened to yet another 'spooky and foreshadowing' PDA-log, I got the idea that it's supposed to be scary, but it didn't spark any emotion for me.

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TB171 said:


I beleive it was a joke. Don't take it too seriously.



Too think of it now, I would really like to see iD incorporate some some sort of audio log system like Bioshock did and added to the atmosphere and gave you a little background on the story and characters etc. And if they do this idea (hopefully), PLEASE GOD don't make every log the same like Doom 3 did.

Something else I thought about was that they do a Save Game/Load Game system for PC and Consoles instead of the auto-saves which Doom 3 BFG did, and pretty much rendered saving the game manually useless. For me the reason modern FPS are so easy, is because the game saves for you every time you enter a new room *cough* Black Ops *cough*.

Like I said before a while back in this thread, I'm not really expecting a whole lot from Doom 4...

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