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DoomUK
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Five months of posting the same nonsense. Five months.

Old Post 12-18-12 22:15 #
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doom_is_great
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JarHed said:
What I would really like to see is complex and varied demon behaviors, including interactions and infighting between demons and different types.

Pinkies should probably be almost mindlessly aggressive predators, tearing apart anything they can get their mouths on. Including other demons. Of course there should also be barely "tame" Pinkies found in the company of smarter demon variants as their handlers.

Imps should always be minions, but I think they would work well as clever or at least cunning minions capable of working in concert with one another and utilize various tactics as a pack. Maybe even trying to ambush the player and flank you when they get the chance. But really, they would still just be Imps. Nothing too threatening or intelligent, just a bit of basic cunning. Well, unless they're being commanded by something else...

Which could be the perfect role for Hell Knights, as they could make ideal field commanders for hell's armies, able to get lesser demons to perform more complex tasks and work together in different ways as well as carry out more intelligent tactics. Also, it would be nice that if they would crush or brutally beat any minion that accidentally hit them if they were close at hand. Or maybe just pick them up and toss them at the player.

You know, stuff like that. Archviles should basically behave as even higher up in the chain of command, serving as sort of demonic priests or something and preferring to utilize its minions in ways that made full use of its abilities. Which would of course include being able to resurrect them.

Things like Masterminds and Arachnotrons should probably show evidence of using those brain bodies of their for more than shooting guns at things. I'm not exactly sure how but they should show off their technological adeptness and intelligence in some way. And they should fight smart too and seem more controlled and analytical than the other demons. I imagine they would probably be closer to Hell's equivalent of scientists and researchers than proper warriors but they could still use an assortment of technology to be just as dangerous as any if not more so.

That's just my opinion, but still. I would like to see a whole variety of unique interactions between all of the demon varieties and having them behave differently in combat depending upon that. I want them to seem like they're actually a part of some army with distinct roles and purpose, not just a random assortment of monsters just wandering about aimlessly until you come along to kill them all.



Cool ideas. Infighting was one of the things that made Classic Doom interesting. Doom 3 unforutantely didn't have much infighting. I hope that id adds that feature to Doom 4. It would be pretty sweet to see Hell Knights getting pissed at imps and zombies and picking them up and ripping them in half. Some really cool stuff like that.

Old Post 12-19-12 06:17 #
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Eris Falling
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idSoftware981 said:
GOD DAMN IT LISTEN TO ME FOR ONCE!

I mean dynamic weather in REAL fucking TIME!



GOD DAMN IT WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY THAT FIRST FUCKING TIME!?

Old Post 12-19-12 16:39 #
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Scypek2
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idSoftware981 said:
I JUST WANT GOOD OL FUCKING DOOM!


I told you you can have it. In my previous post. So, you know, "LISTEN TO ME FOR ONCE!"

Old Post 12-19-12 19:30 #
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Agentbromsnor
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Somebody should make a joke-WAD about this guy.

Old Post 12-19-12 20:33 #
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Eris Falling
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Agentbromsnor said:
Somebody should make a joke-WAD about this guy.


Oh hell yeah! I've thought of the MIDI already

Old Post 12-19-12 20:42 #
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idSoftware981
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I don't know about you but I think the AI should be super smart... Imps should crawl on the ceilings. And they should be able to pop out of nowhere and surprise you.

Also, I think that each playthrough should have different enemies and stuff...

About weapons, weapons should vary from a pistol all the way up to a BFG9000.

In order

Fists

Sword

Knife

Chainsaw

Pistol

Pistol with 3 Round Burst

Machine Pistol

Sub Machine Gun

Semi Automatic Rifle

Automatic Rifle

Chaingun

Plasma Rifle

Plasma Chaingun

Plasma Launcher

Rocket Launcher

Napalm Thrower

Sniper Rifle

Plasma Sniper Rifle (Railgun)

BFG9000

BFG10K



I know this might be repeated stuff or what not. But honestly, those are the weapons that should be in DOOM 4.

Also, I would like it so you could have multiple attachments. But you have to find them. Because they will be scattered throughout the game like secrets.

Secrets should make a return.

And music if it's going to be in the game....

God please let it be memorable music. Also, the music should fit the level and change the mood and atmosphere of the game...

For example remember in E1M8 how you had a depressing song as you killed two Barons of Hell?!

I wish something like that could happen in DOOM 4. Like the music is depressing and stuff. :P

Anyways, thank you all for your time and for your patience with me and for reading this! :D

Old Post 12-19-12 22:04 #
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Scypek2
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No offence idsoftware981, but don't you have some kind of mental disease, or something? Even a small one? That would made things a bit more understandable and would be probably more acceptable in such a case.

Old Post 12-19-12 22:25 #
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DooM_RO
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I've been watching parts of Carmack's latest Keynote and here are some interesting bits regarding Doom 4. It seems that Id Software are very conscious about their past mistakes. Was RAGE an attempt to correct those past mistakes? Especially gameplay wise?

And then Carmack’s grip on his composure loosened. Caught up in legitimately excited fervor (and slight illness), he let a few tidbits about Doom 4 slip. “We’re continuing to get better on the tactical gameplay level. Making that gritty feel – the punch of it. RAGE definitely has better punch [than Doom 3]. And we’ll continue to improve that [in Doom 4].”

“[Doom 3's] world was a shell, and not that much was interactive. So that’s another big thing for us going forward in the next game,” he added, noting however, that a focus on detail won’t keep the demonic shooter in development hell forever. “We’ve made a lot of mistakes [time-wise] already with Doom 4. But prioritizing things that help us get the game done faster is hugely important. We just can’t go another six years [like we did with RAGE].”

Old Post 12-20-12 13:26 #
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geo
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DooM_RO said:
I've been watching parts of Carmack's latest Keynote and here are some interesting bits regarding Doom 4. It seems that Id Software are very conscious about their past mistakes. Was RAGE an attempt to correct those past mistakes? Especially gameplay wise?

And then Carmack’s grip on his composure loosened. Caught up in legitimately excited fervor (and slight illness), he let a few tidbits about Doom 4 slip. “We’re continuing to get better on the tactical gameplay level. Making that gritty feel – the punch of it. RAGE definitely has better punch [than Doom 3]. And we’ll continue to improve that [in Doom 4].”

“[Doom 3's] world was a shell, and not that much was interactive. So that’s another big thing for us going forward in the next game,” he added, noting however, that a focus on detail won’t keep the demonic shooter in development hell forever. “We’ve made a lot of mistakes [time-wise] already with Doom 4. But prioritizing things that help us get the game done faster is hugely important. We just can’t go another six years [like we did with RAGE].”



Rage was a way to make sure they didn't mess up Doom 4. Like before you run a marathon you train. Or Carmack just thought vehicles! I can make vehicles lets put them in Doom!!! And someone said no John let's not.

Oh yikes a gritty feel. Tactical gameplay? Doom was just a shooting gallery. Better punch? Does that mean story wise? Does that mean weapon feel? Does that mean weapon effect?

There was some good interactivity in Doom 3. Wall panels, grabber gun, but I guess maybe he means stuff you couldn't move around. Like junk. Let's move around junk throw some explosive barrels and then kaboom.

Ton of mistakes time wise.... Homefront comes to mind.

Personally I'd start any shooter by making a multiplayer deathmatch so players can test weapons and tactics on living people. Monitor how those living people react. Tweak the guns to perfection. Make a gun for every situation. Then throw in an enemy for every type of gun situation. Then make enemy AI do what a normal player would do 90% of the time. Like if a player turtles down.... grenade them and shoot as they run out. Take cover (although some people can run straight at you), peak out from behind stuff briefly to analyze where you are and then go shooting. Imps that take side routes to get behind you or climb on ceilings high above you and drop in. Barons and Cyberdemons probably wouldn't take sneaky approaches. Barons might charge, Cyberdemons might just shoot.

Make levels that incorporate everything one by one before it stacks it all at you. Like use a shotgun for close quarters... then have far enemies that your shotgun suddenly becomes less effective so you need to switch weapons so the player understands... shotgun close, chaingun far. Make some things to buffer the action that still keep you in the game without cutsceneing. If the level feels meh or isn't stimulating the player. Change it, but also give them an easy break. Like a lull in the action where you fight 1 thing or fight nothing to give your brain a rest. After all of that have artists / modelers get to work making the levels look beautiful and different from one another. That way you know what you'll need (ontop of common stock items like barrels). Oh and story? What story. I just want to play a game.

There are a lot of game companies that start backward and then need to tweak everything. Like oh we tweaked this enemy AI or this gun late in the game time to go back and adjust all the levels.

Old Post 12-20-12 15:57 #
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Sergeant_Mark_IV
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Agentbromsnor said:
Games that use shitty heavy metal music to provoke some sense of action.


Yeah, sure kiddo. I hope id calls Hans Zimmer to make shitty unmemorable and cliche orchestral music to provoke some false sense of epicness.


Agentbromsnor said:
I'm sick of games that use arbitrary bullshit like iron sights just because every other FPS game has been doing it.

Iron Sights were a great advance for FPS, it adds realism in a good way, and if you don't reduce the player's speed when you are using it, it becomes a great gameplay feature, like you can use the same machinegun to take down a fast moving enemy but aim down the sights to take out enemies from distance. Play Serious Sam 3 and you will see how a well implemented ADS system works. Anyway, it doesn't care if you like it or not, its gonna make up to the game anyway.




I'm sick of games that use stupid gimmicky graphic features like bloom and motionblur that add fuck all to the core gameplay and are only there to either agrivate you or benchmark your videocard (or both)


I can partially agree on motionblur because I think this effect is used in an exaggerated and unrealistic way, but come on, do you think bloom is a gimmicky graphical feature? Oh, come on, be honest, how often you leave your basement? Because I think if you were used to get outside once a day, you would notice that, even under the same level of light, objects in an area don't look the same in a solid unsaturated scene. Look closer and you will notice that some objects reflects more lightning than others. Also, during the night, look at a strong light source, and you will notice how it causes a glow (and if you omit the source with anything, the glow will disappear) and its strong light bleeds to nearby objects with less light in the same line of sight. That's what bloom emulates.

Old Post 12-20-12 17:19 #
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Agentbromsnor
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Sergeant_Mark_IV said:


Yeah, sure kiddo. I hope id calls Hans Zimmer to make shitty unmemorable and cliche orchestral music to provoke some false sense of epicness.



Thats the other side of the spectrum. Its not like the only available options are either a blaring heavy metal soundtrack, or a cheesy classical score. You can always try to be, you know, ORIGINAL.

Also, 'kiddo'? Come on. How old are you?


Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

Iron Sights were a great advance for FPS, it adds realism in a good way, and if you don't reduce the player's speed when you are using it, it becomes a great gameplay feature, like you can use the same machinegun to take down a fast moving enemy but aim down the sights to take out enemies from distance. Play Serious Sam 3 and you will see how a well implemented ADS system works. Anyway, it doesn't care if you like it or not, its gonna make up to the game anyway.



You're giving this shit way too much credit. Sure, it can be handy in military shooters because THAT is where iron sights is appropriate, but not in fucking Doom. What I also wanted to point out with that, was that iron sights is NOT a requirement that every FPS game on the market needs.


Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

I can partially agree on motionblur because I think this effect is used in an exaggerated and unrealistic way, but come on, do you think bloom is a gimmicky graphical feature? blabla



I think bloom isn't that bad if you use it in a subtle way, but if someone puts it on his wishlist for mechanics that a game should have, I think he or she is being retarded. Luckily the games with overblown HDR and bloom are now gone, but I still don't want to encourage ANY game to look like PhotoShop filter-porn.

Old Post 12-20-12 17:34 #
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Sergeant_Mark_IV
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Agentbromsnor said:

Thats the other side of the spectrum. Its not like the only available options are either a blaring heavy metal soundtrack, or a cheesy classical score. You can always try to be, you know, ORIGINAL.



What would you call original soundtrack for a game? Dubstep? Rap? Generic Techno a la Quake 3? I know that metal soundtracks has a chance of going terribly bad (see Painkiller) but it still is much easier to make an original and memorable metal score than any other style. The only way to put a non-metal score in Doom, it would be to make Aubrey Hodges styled ambient music, and I mean that the man himself should be the composer, but I really doubt that id would ever call him to make Doom 4 soundtrack.




You're giving this shit way too much credit. Sure, it can be handy in military shooters because THAT is where iron sights is appropriate, but not in fucking Doom. What I also wanted to point out with that, was that iron sights is NOT a requirement that every FPS game on the market needs.

Why do you think it's unappropriated in Doom? Look back at Doom's development. They were aiming for the most realistic game as possible. Do you know why the weapons are centered? Because Doomguy is supposed to be aiming down the sights all the time. Firing an assault rifle from the hip and hitting enemies 200 metters away like if you were the fucking Jhon MacRamboLean MacNorrisGyver looks awfully ridiculous. And I ask you again, did you ever played Serious Sam 3? The ADS adds realism to the game, but yet doesn't affect the gameplay in a bad way, but enhances it adding more versatility to the weapons (Fire from the hip to hit a fast moving enemy at close range, or aim down the sights to snipe enemies at a long range, and using the same weapon.) If they add ADS like that in Doom 4, it's gonna be awesome.

Old Post 12-20-12 18:05 #
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Eris Falling
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Except that DOOM 4 will feature gameplay more like the Classic DOOM games.

Besides, Doom 3 didn't have these iron sights, it just zoomed in slightly, and even then I didn't use it. I
t's not like iron sights weren't around when D3 came out anyway, so I strongly doubt D4 will use them, like it or not


Firing an assault rifle from the hip and hitting enemies 200 metters away like if you were the fucking Jhon MacRamboLean MacNorrisGyver looks awfully ridiculous


I'm sorry, but I believe that the protagonist of Doom 4 is a Doomguy.

Most of those have been pretty badass to date, why wouldn't the next one be?

Old Post 12-20-12 18:18 #
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Agentbromsnor
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Sergeant_Mark_IV said:


What would you call original soundtrack for a game? Dubstep? Rap? Generic Techno a la Quake 3? I know that metal soundtracks has a chance of going terribly bad (see Painkiller) but it still is much easier to make an original and memorable metal score than any other style. The only way to put a non-metal score in Doom, it would be to make Aubrey Hodges styled ambient music, and I mean that the man himself should be the composer, but I really doubt that id would ever call him to make Doom 4 soundtrack.



Again, the other side of the spectrum. Remember that Doom's soundtrack was INSPIRED by heavy metal artists. There were plenty of non-metal tracks in Doom and Doom 2.

I've said this before in this topic, but one of the only things very much liked was the soundtrack. It was a mostly ambient based score, but with a heavy theme song at the title. To me, that was pretty much the perfect mixture.

As for my personal taste, I would like to say this to id Software or Tim Willits if I could: you see this man called Aubrey Hodges? Hire him. He's your friend.

To me, he basically perfected the sound and feel for classic Doom.


Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

Why do you think it's unappropriated in Doom? Look back at Doom's development. They were aiming for the most realistic game as possible. Do you know why the weapons are centered? Because Doomguy is supposed to be aiming down the sights all the time. Firing an assault rifle from the hip and hitting enemies 200 metters away like if you were the fucking Jhon MacRamboLean MacNorrisGyver looks awfully ridiculous. And I ask you again, did you ever played Serious Sam 3? The ADS adds realism to the game, but yet doesn't affect the gameplay in a bad way, but enhances it adding more versatility to the weapons (Fire from the hip to hit a fast moving enemy at close range, or aim down the sights to snipe enemies at a long range, and using the same weapon.) If they add ADS like that in Doom 4, it's gonna be awesome.



I never said Doom shouldn't have iron sights, but I don't think its a requirement. I don't think that the situations in a Doom game would realistically have the player perfectly aiming down his sights all the time either if you wanna argue realism, so I have a mixed opinion about it.

I haven't played Serious Sam 3, just the first 2, but I've seen video's on YouTube about it.

Old Post 12-20-12 18:24 #
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idSoftware981
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What I am going to say is this. Hire Bobby Prince.

By the way I have serious doubts Agent played the classic DOOM's. He/she was probably one of those ones who only played the Playstation port. Sergeant Mark IV I can respect because he pretty much made Brutal DOOM and is also telling us what could happen on DOOM 4.

Also, fucking id Software should hire him.

Old Post 12-20-12 18:53 #
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Eris Falling
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idSoftware981 said:

By the way I have serious doubts Agent played the classic DOOM's. He/she was probably one of those ones who only played the Playstation port.



So did I. What's your point?


Sergeant Mark IV I can respect because he pretty much made Brutal DOOM and is also telling us what could happen on DOOM 4.


First of all, he DID make Brutal Doom.
And isn't everyone else suggesting what could happen on Doom 4?

Old Post 12-20-12 18:57 #
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Agentbromsnor
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idSoftware981 said:
What I am going to say is this. Hire Bobby Prince.

By the way I have serious doubts Agent played the classic DOOM's. He/she was probably one of those ones who only played the Playstation port. Sergeant Mark IV I can respect because he pretty much made Brutal DOOM and is also telling us what could happen on DOOM 4.

Also, fucking id Software should hire him.



I first played Doom on floppy disks, and in 1994 I played the CD-Rom version. I was Dooming when you were still shitting your diapers.

Bobby Prince is a good composer, but he should make music for kids games and / or platform games. His music was perfect for the Commander Keen games, but as classic as his compositions are, I don't think they suit the gritty atmosphere that Doom tries to convey.

Old Post 12-20-12 19:06 #
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Eris Falling
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While we're on the subject of Prince, I just googled him, and found that he celebrated his 2000th birthday this year! Congratulations Bobby!

http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/1421/howoldishe.png

Old Post 12-20-12 19:14 #
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Clonehunter
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Happy Birthday Prince

Old Post 12-21-12 04:26 #
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DoomUK
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Agentbromsnor said:
Bobby Prince is a good composer, but he should make music for kids games and / or platform games. His music was perfect for the Commander Keen games, but as classic as his compositions are, I don't think they suit the gritty atmosphere that Doom tries to convey.

Ah, the great rift amongst Doomers: Bobby Prince or Aubrey Hodges?

Personally, I agree with you completely, but we must concede that it's just not possible to please everyone with the choice of music in Doom 4. We make fun of idSoftware981's retarded and trolly posts, but when he speaks of Bobby Prince he's representing one side of the schism that he's not alone on - if anything, those of us who prefer the dark ambient stuff are in the minority.

Old Post 12-21-12 12:22 #
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printz
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I'd actually listen to some death metal while playing Doom, but played with real instruments or very realistic sound fonts. They fit together well.

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Old Post 12-21-12 12:58 #
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Agentbromsnor
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DoomUK said:

Ah, the great rift amongst Doomers: Bobby Prince or Aubrey Hodges?

Personally, I agree with you completely, but we must concede that it's just not possible to please everyone with the choice of music in Doom 4. We make fun of idSoftware981's retarded and trolly posts, but when he speaks of Bobby Prince he's representing one side of the schism that he's not alone on - if anything, those of us who prefer the dark ambient stuff are in the minority.



Regardless of our opinion on the music in the classic Doom's, how would you imagine Bobby Prince doing a soundtrack for a modern game like Doom 4? I'm having a hard time imagining that. His compositions are usually lighthearted and upbeat with the occasional ambient touch. So I think if he were to realistically do the score for Doom 4, he would have to cut out most of his trademarks and that would be a shame IMO.

Old Post 12-21-12 13:06 #
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DoomUK
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Agentbromsnor said:
Regardless of our opinion on the music in the classic Doom's, how would you imagine Bobby Prince doing a soundtrack for a modern game like Doom 4? I'm having a hard time imagining that. His compositions are usually lighthearted and upbeat with the occasional ambient touch. So I think if he were to realistically do the score for Doom 4, he would have to cut out most of his trademarks and that would be a shame IMO.

I'm going to come out and say it:-

To me, Bobby Prince's semi-cheerful style would be no more out of place in a modern shooter than it was in Doom. If it "worked" 20 years ago then it can "work" today. Of course the instruments might sound different but if the music had the same feel then there would be no incongruity as far as I'm concerned.

Yes, I also started with PC Doom. I don't mean to bash Prince's work entirely; his sound effects are integral to Doom's iconic status. But I was never a fan of his music MIDIs, long before PSX Doom was even thought of.

Commence flaming. :p

Old Post 12-21-12 13:51 #
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I agree. That doesn't mean Prince's work is bad though, its just out of place, and I also played the PC version first.

Old Post 12-21-12 14:14 #
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Scypek2
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What's the dilemma? Use BOTH Aubrey and Bobby dynamically in corresponding situations where ambient/dynamic music would fit.

Old Post 12-21-12 15:50 #
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DooM_RO
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Anyone but Hans Zimmer.

Old Post 12-21-12 16:08 #
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idSoftware981
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DOOM 4 should have...

Dynamic deaths. I should be able to see decapitation. And many death animations like Brutal DOOM.

That's what I have to say.

But if you guys are going to hate on me... then I feel very sad. And yes I do have a "damn life".

Old Post 12-27-12 17:44 #
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schwerpunk
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If Doom 4 played like Brutal Doom I'd be happy, for sure. Although it probably won't be nearly as gory, and I'm alright with that. I just hope it isn't 'Rage with Demons.' That would be disappointing.

Old Post 12-27-12 18:46 #
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schwerpunk said:
I just hope it isn't 'Rage with Demons.' That would be disappointing.


Someone will complain about that sooner or later, just because it's the same engine.

Old Post 12-27-12 19:06 #
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