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DASI-I

Doom 4 should have...

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Piper Maru said:

I don't want of that elevator/Taco Bell commercial music from Doom II anywhere near Doom 4.

If there should be any music in Doom 4 it should be like the powerful music from the original and they could also have some remastered versions of the original music

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Doominator2 said:

If there should be any music in Doom 4 it should be like the powerful music from the original and they could also have some remastered versions of the original music


That would actually sound very strange in a modern game.

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DooM_RO said:

That would actually sound very strange in a modern game.


How exactly would it sound strange? That's what the new Rise of the Triad did, and it's really not bad.

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MFG38 said:

How exactly would it sound strange? That's what the new Rise of the Triad did, and it's really not bad.


I really hope D4 won't be like ROTT. The whole game has an aura of cheapness about it.

Piper Maru said:

So what sort of weapons do you guys want in Doom 4?


I want new weapons in each episode.

In ep 1 you get standard Doom weapons, E2 has more futuristic weapons (which also introduce alt fire) and E3 has magical weapons that you can level-up using demon souls. Do you upgrade your Soul Launcher to have a life steal or faster fire rate (this is the "chaingun"). The weapons are based on the normal ones. When you press 3 you always get a weapon with shotgun mechanics (but with new visuals and its own gameplay quirks)

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Piper Maru said:

So what sort of weapons do you guys want in Doom 4?


All the classics, of course, but I'm not at all opposed to new weapons. Upgrades would be very interesting. Something that could say, turn the pistol from a pea shooter to a deadly mother fucker. The Unmaker should definitely return, and have its own demonic ammunition. I'd also like to see a grenade launcher/rocket launcher combo.

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I wrote a post about DNF on a different forum and thought some of it applies here as well.

When I look back at Duke Nukem Forever one thing that's striking for me is that, while the game does have many flaws on multiple fields, one of the overlooked ones is that instead of going in brave new directions, it recycles tons of stuff from Duke3D. All the enemies and weapons. When you look back at previous Duke games, they changed a lot across the first three titles. Not just in terms of technology, the whole gameworld evolved. Each game introduced new enemies and weapons. Duke2 wasn't trying to 'live up' to Duke1 - it was bigger, better and went beyond it. Duke3D wasn't trying to 'live up' to Duke2 - it changed A LOT and became a much better game. When I sat down to play Duke3D, it wasn't Duke2 HD, all the monsters were new, all the weapons were new. And you know what? THAT was thrilling.

When you look at DNF 2001 trailer (or even 98 one), this early version of the game wasn't Duke3D. It wasn't afraid to introduce new monsters, new weapons, new mechanics. It was meant to be a massive upgrade, the next step for the franchise. It wasn't a game that tried to 'live up' to Duke3D. It was being built upon the foundation of Duke3D but going beyond it. Unfortunately, not only the final version of DNF did not expand upon Duke3D (and instead tried to mindlessly copy modern gameplay ideas) but it was too afraid to let go of the old world of Duke3D. Exact same weapons, exact same enemies, even the exact same final boss. Was it cool to fire a modernized Ripper against a modernized Assault Commander? It was. In a nostalgic way. But was it as thrilling as firing a brand new rocket launcher in Duke2 for the first time against brand new enemies? Or was is as thrilling as blasting the head of a brand new Pigcop enemy with a brand new shotgun in Duke3D? No. It was a rehash. It was an old memory in new clothes and makeup.
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I feel the same is true for DOOM 4 in some ways. So many people want it to "live up" to DOOM 1/2. "It needs this and this, oh and this monster has to be in, otherwise it won't be DOOM, oh and this weapon, it's absolutely necessary!". I say screw it. I'd be totally fine with a DOOM 4 that has just one or two "classic" monsters. [Hell, in 2003 I was excited by the fact that monsters in DOOM 3 were going to be so different, it was fresh!] Same for weapons, just leave shotgun and go crazy with new guns. Go beyond of what you think DOOM is all about. Living up to a 20 years old game? Pfff, booring. Move forward! Right now some people will tell me "oh if you want a new game then don't call it DOOM" but those people are ignorant. It's not about making something that doesn't resemble DOOM at all. It's about building on the foundation but not being restricted by whatever old and outdated ideas and assets lurk in a 93/94 game. Seriously, it's been 20 years. What's done is done, time to move on.

In other words, DOOM 4 should be about making new memories, NOT bringing back the old ones (which would not live up to a collective pipe dream of the whole DOOM community anyway).

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Touchdown, you make some excellent points, but the problem is that Doom 3 changed so many things for the worse. Bland art style and a host of problems with the relationship between the player, his environment, the enemies, the weapons and the power-ups. id had the right attitude--reincarnating one of their franchises while being unafraid of establishing a new aesthetic--but fell fart short of potential. They should take a similar approach to Doom 4, but keep in mind how important art direction, sound design, satisfying controls and strong action sequences are.

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Piper Maru said:

I'd like to see a lightning gun in Doom 4 in addition to all the classic weapons.

Yes that weapon would be a good addition to Doom.

GoatLord said:

The Unmaker should definitely return, and have its own demonic ammunition.

I think they should do it as a mix of demonic and tech just like the one in Doom 64.

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GoatLord said:

Touchdown, you make some excellent points, but the problem is that Doom 3 changed so many things for the worse. Bland art style and a host of problems with the relationship between the player, his environment, the enemies, the weapons and the power-ups. id had the right attitude--reincarnating one of their franchises while being unafraid of establishing a new aesthetic--but fell fart short of potential. They should take a similar approach to Doom 4, but keep in mind how important art direction, sound design, satisfying controls and strong action sequences are.


The art style was anything but bland. It could have used more variety but what I saw was and still is very good.

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DooM_RO said:

The art style was anything but bland. It could have used more variety but what I saw was and still is very good.


Allow me to elaborate. Many of the individual details are gorgeous. There's a frequently organic quality to a lot of the machinery. The sentry robot looked very much like something we'll be developing in the near future. There's a very convincing quality to the more high-concept technology you encounter later in the game. On the whole, the Martian labs and bases feel believable, even if the computers are early 20th century in appearance.

You said "it could have used more variety" and that's really the downfall. The maps look so similar that I sometimes got confused and thought I was playing the same one twice. I would frequently get lost because I had trouble distinguishing one area from another. I felt like 90% of the game was one long blue and grey corridor. So that's why it felt bland to me, even though it was plenty competent.

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There is actually a lot of variety in it but for some reason, it just doesn't feel tangible. The style actually changes beginning with Alpha Labs which have a lot of blue in them, Recycling is mostly green, EnPro was a combination and there was of course Hell (which felt a bit like Quake)

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Personally I like it if id took some notes from Brutal Doom and included a soundtrack of metal remix remasters of the old Doom WAD music or just used a real good heavy metal soundtrack nonetheless.

As far as gameplay goes I'd like to see a variety of some mini-games (like in RAGE) but Doom themed and similar to the Super Turbo Turkey Puncher from Doom 3.

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kerrang said:

Doom4 should be like Brutal Doom


I do think they should take a look at it, but make it LIKE Brutal Doom?! Hell no!

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DooM_RO said:

I do think they should take a look at it, but make it LIKE Brutal Doom?! Hell no!


Agreed. Brutal Doom can be a shitload of fun, but it's designed for classic Doom. It's difficult to imagine that translating to modern graphics and gameplay mechanics. There are elements of it that would be great additions to Doom 4, though, such as:

• The ability to use revenant rockets and mancubus cannons
• Alternate fire modes
• The ability to grab and throw both lost souls and barrels
• Rescuing an NPC marine that can help you
• Demonic artifacts that allow you to pull off fatalities, although it should be for a limited duration instead of the entire map

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An fatalities that monsters can perform on you. Remember when the Hell Knight ripped the marine's head and ate it...all in first person? Imagine every monster having a fatality like that and with the Oculus Rift!

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I'd hate to see the player being able to perform some retarded fatalities on monsters. As for player death animations, I always thought that's something that looks cool... in a demo. In actual game, I don't know. Seems like a waste of resources for a couple of people who want to see their dead bodies being mutilated.

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Touchdown said:

I'd hate to see the player being able to perform some retarded fatalities on monsters. As for player death animations, I always thought that's something that looks cool... in a demo. In actual game, I don't know. Seems like a waste of resources for a couple of people who want to see their dead bodies being mutilated.


You make a pretty good point, and I must say, I agree to this completely.

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Yeah I'm not a fan of death animations in Doom. Some games I understand, but Doom should really just be a basic shooter. I'd rather just have it quickly done and over with. You shot them and go to the next, not slow motion shooting or stopping to show you and the enemy as you break their neck. It breaks the flow of being FPS.

I think games with slower mechanics and animations are better fitted for kill animations. I'd be happier with quick time events or timing based animations than something I'm forced to watch over... and over.

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One thing that I think might hold the potential is bringing back the oldschool death animations that would work in harmony with ragdoll system. id did a fantastic job with merging ragdoll physics with hit reactions in RAGE where the enemies were never 'stuck' in those animations. It was all playing out very naturally and dynamically. I think extending that system would be a logical thing to do. So instead of enemies just falling down upon death, you could have certain types of 'death animations' (guts spilling out for instance) but still keep those dynamic - possible to 'interact' with them by shooting or maybe stepping onto them. Also obviously have different types of death depending on a weapon used and hit-region (head, chest, etc).

So basically RAGE-style hit-reactions system extened to death-animations.

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Death animations in non-sprite games do become quite boring after time, besides ragdoll physics still has yet to evolve better, but nobody seems to be patient enough to wait for it to happen.

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It would be really difficult to make the death animations as elaborate as they'd need to be to compare to the sprites. The way some of the enemies fall apart and collapse is still very difficult to pull off in 3D. I think what we can all agree on is that killing the enemy must be, above all, a satisfying experience. Doom provided that perfectly with its silly animations, but Doom 3 dropped the ball with awkward ragdoll effects, instant dematerializing and very little blood or gore. Doom 4 doesn't have to go over-the-top to achieve the desired effect, but it needs to bring more to the table than Doom 3 did.

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GoatLord said:

It would be really difficult to make the death animations as elaborate as they'd need to be to compare to the sprites. The way some of the enemies fall apart and collapse is still very difficult to pull off in 3D. I think what we can all agree on is that killing the enemy must be, above all, a satisfying experience. Doom provided that perfectly with its silly animations, but Doom 3 dropped the ball with awkward ragdoll effects, instant dematerializing and very little blood or gore. Doom 4 doesn't have to go over-the-top to achieve the desired effect, but it needs to bring more to the table than Doom 3 did.


100% agree except one thing. I thought the imp's death in Doom 3 was very well done. Its death blends very well with the melting and its sounds. I think the Imp should have been the only demon to melt, it somehow gave it character.

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I don't know what crazy complex death animations you guys have in mind but incorporating additional death-specific animations into a ragdoll system would not be any more difficult than what id has already done with the hit-reactions system being added into ragdolls.

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Part of me really wants id to go contemporary and utilize limb-specific dismemberment, decapitation and deaths dependent on the weapon being used, such as the plasma rifle in Brutal Doom burning baddies to a cinder. This would involve a lot of extra work, but man would it be satisfying. This isn't a recent pipe dream, either: As a kid I always wanted to see something more elaborate, which Brutal Doom essentially fulfilled. Obviously, I'm not asking for Brutal Doom 4, but some of its ideas are worth emulating.

Also, I agree with DooM_RO that there was something charming, if not a bit creepy, about the way the imp would dematerialize. It's especially haunting when it happens in Hell. It kind of works with the cherubs, too. I wouldn't mind seeing a return to that, but maybe just for a few lower tier enemies, and not so damn quickly.

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If they do do dismemberment it will need to have a chance percentage, making it happen too often would get to be quite dull after time I figure.

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