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Searcher
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I use Deepsea 11.1

I have imported four tree sprites into my pwad to replace things I won't use in this particular Doom2 map. The trees are from the retres.wad of Team TNT.

I added the SS_Start and SS_End to the pwad above and below the sprites and zdoom and legacy recognize and display the trees when running the map. Doom2.exe does not, it doesn't show anything where the trees are. Not even the things that were replaced.

The retres sprites are:
SMITA0
TRE1A0
TRE2A0
POL2A0

When I try to add the normal S_START and S_END to the pwad Doom2.exe will not load the map and gives the folowing error:
R_ProjectSprite:invalid Sprite frame 3:0

None of the replaced sprites move so they should not have a frame.

I know most of the 6 maps I checked that use Doom2.exe use the S_START and S_END designations so I think it should probably be there but the map will not load when it is there by itself OR above and below the SS_Start and SS_End to "nest" it in there.

I read the unofficial doom specs on sprites but I am not sure I understand them. No wonder not many guys replace sprites in a doom2 map.

I know some of you guys have this stuff down, but I am a newcomer to pwad sprite additions. I am sure it is likely something simple to the guys that know but has sure made me pull my hair out.

Any thoughts please?

I could email the map if that would help. The map is only 30% complete but I would like to get this handled before I get much further into it, so I will know if I will just have to take the trees out.

Thanks.

Old Post 01-14-03 20:59 #
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rf`
Dr. Nosign


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I can't really help you. I don't know how to use Deepsea. Just those olde progs for DOS. like Nwtpro.

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Old Post 01-14-03 21:03 #
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deep
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Searcher said:
I use Deepsea 11.1

I have imported four tree sprites into my pwad to replace things I won't use in this particular Doom2 map. The trees are from the retres.wad of Team TNT.

I added the SS_Start and SS_End to the pwad above and below the sprites and zdoom and legacy recognize and display the trees when running the map. Doom2.exe does not, it doesn't show anything where the trees are. Not even the things that were replaced.

You did everything correctly. As noted in the DeePsea help, sprites cannot be replaced for stock DOOM unless you do them all and then you end up using S_START and S_END which DOOM does recognize. The SS_xxxx stuff are BOOM additions.

Doing them all was done by some older mods, but that means you broke the id copyright:) However, you can do export all the sprites, add yours in and then play the PWAD on a local basis with friends. To create a copy of all the sprites, there are 2 methods. The easiest method is this:

1. press F7
2. Select DeePsea Graphics Editor
3. Select Export All Sprites.

Now you have a PWAD with all the sprites. Merge this file with your PWAD or you could just run it as a standalone PWAD. If you left it as a standalone, then merge your new sprites into this "sprite" pwad.

For the newer BOOM derived ports you can do partial sprite replacement using SS_... container names. That's why ZDOOM or LEGACY to name just 2, will show this ok (there are many others ports too).

The rules for this have nothing to do with whether the editing program is DOS or Windows - the rules are always the same:)

Old Post 01-14-03 21:17 #
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Searcher
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If I export all the sprites to my file won't that file become fairly large? I guess I was hoping to not have a huge file just for adding a couple of trees.

I would like to be able to release the map when done.

BTW thanks for the help.

Old Post 01-14-03 22:06 #
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The Ultimate DooMer
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There is another way for doom2.exe:

Insert your sprites into your pwad (with the names of the things they're replacing)

Type: deusf -merge yours.wad to merge your sprites with the iwad.

Run your map, it should be fine.

Type: deusf -restore to restore the sprites when you're finished.

(tip: Put these commands into a bat file with the other one, and this makes it really simple to run)

You'll need deusf.exe to do it this way, but go grab Wintex and it's in the zipfile there. (if you don't already have it)

Old Post 01-14-03 22:37 #
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Ultimate DooMer said:
There is another way for doom2.exe:

Insert your sprites into your pwad (with the names of the things they're replacing)

Type: deusf -merge yours.wad to merge your sprites with the iwad.

Run your map, it should be fine.

Type: deusf -restore to restore the sprites when you're finished.

(tip: Put these commands into a bat file with the other one, and this makes it really simple to run)

You'll need deusf.exe to do it this way, but go grab Wintex and it's in the zipfile there. (if you don't already have it)



Thanks I will look into that. I hope to be compatible with Doom2.exe as well as the ports.

Even though the doom2.exe does not currently show the trees it still blocks the places they sit in the map even though they don't show.

Will deusf cause the pwad file to be large, or will it just add the trees so that Doom2.exe will see them?

I prefer not to have a large pwad file just for a couple of extra trees. If this won't work I will just take them out and use the standard trees.

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Old Post 01-15-03 00:31 #
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Ichor
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DeuSF will merge the pwad into doom2.wad, and you'll be playing the slightly larger iwad. The pwad won't be large at all, maybe around 100 KB.

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Old Post 01-15-03 00:33 #
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The Ultimate DooMer
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Searcher said:
Will deusf cause the pwad file to be large, or will it just add the trees so that Doom2.exe will see them?



Nope. As Ichor says, it will make the iwad slightly larger and you won't need to run with the -file parameter. If you create a bat file like this:

deusf -merge yours.wad
doom2
deusf -restore

everything will work out fine and you'd never know anything happened to your iwad or pwad. All you'd have to put in the pwad would be the trees. You'd have to include deusf.exe in your zipfile (just in case someone doesn't have it) but it's only a small file.

Old Post 01-15-03 01:46 #
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Searcher
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Cool, that sounds like a viable alternative.
Thanks.

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Old Post 01-15-03 03:06 #
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deep
as in Deepsea


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Searcher said:
Cool, that sounds like a viable alternative.
Thanks.

Modifying the IWAD sucks hard. Think about it. Would you want to play a level that forces you to modify your IWAD?

I have never run the steps for a PWAD that required that step. Just not worth the hassle if something goes wrong nor worth the confusion in making copies, etc. What I have done is make a merged version for the level if it was good enough to bother with. Pretty easy to do. I take the sprite file mentioned above (which anyone can make locally) and merge all the files supplied. Now it's nice and easy to play without IWAD worries.

I suggest you forget stock DOOM and stick with the ports. Simplify everyone's life. The stock DOOM's exe life is limited - XP doesn't do that good a job with it and eventually just about everyone will be on XP since 98 will no longer be updated. IOW, prepare for the future.

Old Post 01-15-03 04:51 #
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myk
volveré y seré millones


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Meh.

The best and "cleanest" doom2 compatible way to insert sprites is described right here on doomworld:

http://www.doomworld.com/tutorials/fx2.shtml

Requires just a little DEH patch (which you may also use to change the map names and whatnot, especially if this is for more than one map.) Now you have two methods to save yourself from releasing a mutilated "ports only" WAD (the IWAD modifying method is indeed unnecessary and stupid.)

Note that using the deusf method you need to distribute the WAD with only the new sprites (and it will work as is on boom and whatnot.) An accompanying BAT file (along with deusf, preferrably) takes care of adding the rest of the sprites if the user wants to use doom2.

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Old Post 01-15-03 05:19 #
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deep
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DEH patching the exe also blows. Never do that either for exactly the same reason as before. For the average player all this is just too complicated - they would actually have to read a txt instruction file:)

Like I said, make it work for the new ports and life is simple.

Old Post 01-15-03 05:35 #
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myk
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Heh. Searcher will not do that. Why keep a WAD of the potential hands of (at least) half of the skilled DOOM players in existence, when he makes playable WADs and not "look-around and discard" WADs like some others do?

Who cares about the "average player" who is incapable of adding a -deh parameter (easily specified in the TXT file of the WAD)? As for using doom2 and DeHackEd, yeah, it's only for elite people who have a clue, but as you may well know, many of those are valuable players.

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Old Post 01-15-03 06:00 #
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Thanks guys for all the feedback. I really appreciate it.

Looks like all these methods are viable, however each has its own positives and negatives. I kind of prefer to keep things simple in life, and will review each of the suggestions.

Thanks.

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Old Post 01-15-03 16:04 #
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deep
as in Deepsea


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myk said:
Who cares about the "average player" who is incapable of adding a -deh parameter (easily specified in the TXT file of the WAD)?
There's no objection to DEH patches, just patching the exe. 2 different subjects. Most of the ports support DEH files (no patching of the exe), plus for ZDOOM (maybe others) you can put the DEH in the PWAD so there's absolutely nothing extra to read or do. The less one relies on special steps, the better. It's something that a lot of port authors don't get. Randy (so far) is the best at listening to problems and reacting to solutions that are automatic in the interest of simplifying running custom levels.

Almost ALL people are "average players" in the context of reading instructions. So what happens is that by making it complicated (beyond just running via -file PWAD or a launcher) you've just eliminated 95% of your audience.

For sure they do not read instructions - no matter how elite they think they are (in fact, that's the #1 problem, ego prevents them from actually trying to understand something new<g> - it's not related to playing skill, nor to editing skill).

I just send a company a zip file with instruction to unzip into a directory, blah blah. The zip has all the usual set of support files. So what do they do? They unzip the damn thing to the desktop. Ugh. And then complain.

It's up to Searcher - I'm just giving him real world feedback in my experience with what people do and don't do.

Old Post 01-15-03 18:26 #
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deep said:
I'm just giving him real world feedback in my experience with what people do and don't do.


Oh yeah. Agreed on that one. People never read anything, especially instructions. How many times have people heard a teacher saying "have you read the question/instructions"? Well I've heard it loads of times, because I say it - and the answer is always the frikken same...


Pupil: "I'm stuck, I don't know what to do."

Me: "Have you read the question/Instructions."

Pupil (defiantly): "Yeah"

Me: "So what does it say"

Pupil (frantically reading): "Ummm..."

Me (Thinking): "OK Dumbfuck, the information you want is right in front of you, laid out in plain, simple English, but your head is so far up your ass you couldn't even be bothered to look at it, and you didn't listen to me when I told you what to do either. You just got the book out because everyone else did, stared at it blankly and then after a period of time during which it slowly dawned on you that every other person in the room was doing something that you weren't you decided the best thing to do was to ask the poor sod tasked with cramming information that you find totally irrelevant to your spotty, hormone charged existence into your excessively thick skull. This, despite the fact that it would take far less effort to simply read what is in front of you than to raise your hand and identify yourself as a self absorbed blazing, lazy assed numbnutz by asking a question to which you already have the answer and have been given instructions about in the first place."

Me (actually speaking, and in a mellowish mood): "Well, if you look here..." (points to the first line on the page and starts reading the question aloud).

Me (in a less helpful mood): "RTFQ"

Pupil: "eh?"

Me: "Read the question."


Of course, in my experience, most people can't read. Which probably explains why they don't.


And if anyone is wondering if all teachers think that when you ask them a stupid question, frankly I don't know, but I like to think so :-).

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Old Post 01-15-03 20:23 #
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deep
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LOL - that was good:) Particularly the "dumbfuck(tm)" part.

(Now I hope this wasn't done from the school computers ... hahaha)

Old Post 01-15-03 22:28 #
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deep said:
Like I said, make it work for the new ports and life is simple.


Or so you would think. But some people are really dense, and/or too lazy to get themselves informed. So you get emails asking how to run a EDGE-only WAD with ZDoom, or how they didn't want to load a DEH file "because it's stupid" and want to inform you in return that without the patch there were "lots of monster errors" in-game "you have to fix". Oh, and "you suck", of course.

Still, merging PWADs with your main IWAD or appending all sprites / flats to your PWAD is an outdated method. For running vanilla Doom TCs the "best" method is described here:

http://www.doomworld.com/tutorials/fx2.shtml

It gives the minimum amount of fuss, and it's much, MUCH easier to do than the old method of appending sprites or merging WADs.

Of course, nowadays the best method is indeed to use a source port and embed a Dehacked patch in the PWAD. You'll still get emails from people informing you that your PWAD doesn't work with doom95 "which is also a source port", naturally.

Old Post 01-16-03 08:57 #
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myk
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Yeah, I pointed to that method above (you must have missed my post.) But deep does have a point in something he says. The DEH does not work for some engines (doom95, edge, windoom, etc.) Not too popular, but still. By saying "for new ports" deep meant just adding in the new sprites, which is the same as the deusf method, really, especially if you don't give any info on patching it up for doom2 (otherwise you'd be either saying "get deusf and patch the WAD up if you want to use doom2" or you would actually include deusf and an installation batch file.)

Nonetheless saying "patching the EXE sucks" is pretty pointless. No one is forced to patch doom2 to play a WAD including a DEH file, and though including a dehacked lump for those engines supporting it is fine, it's stupid to not at least include some info on using a WAD with doom2 if it's possible, like saying "extract the dehacked lump with wintex or whatever and apply it as applicable to use this with doom2 or boom, as this WAD is otherwise compatible with those engines" or otherwise (being more user-friendly) including the DEH separately as well... or even also a patched EXE if you specifically aim for doom2 users.

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Old Post 01-16-03 09:54 #
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Enjay
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Sounds like Mordeth is speaking from painful experience.

The "you have to fix" and "you suck" bits sounds particularly real.

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Old Post 01-16-03 18:33 #
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myk
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I don't see why such input could matter, except to make one laugh. Really, when making something, especially if it's something you do for fun, you better either release it without exceptional expectations or else knowing there's a group of people that will most likely play or use it. People that actually have a clue about WADs and stuff, not random jetsam and flotsam that may by happenstance float near your boat. That's unexpected, and a lot of it not fitting, but so what.

That's why the theory of releasing something with "setup simplicity" in the foreground because "users are retatrds" is not only insulting to whoever is potentially going to play it, but will also require unnecessary limitations to your preferred designs. It might be OK for selling something, after all what you want is $, with no concern whether whoever uses it is a moron or whatnot. But for a free release quality aimed at the kind of players you feel share your gaming style is always better than cheap quantities of potential users.

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Old Post 01-16-03 18:51 #
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