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The Ultimate DooMer
(former) /newstuff Chronicler

Posts: 4449
Registered: 03-02

I recently discovered the wonderful Zennode and so I gave it a go on LTSD (filesize is 16.2 meg). When I ran it using "zennode 007ltsd.wad" it took a little while to do all 9 maps and the filesize got reduced to 15.8 meg. But when I opened LTSD up in WA, went to each map in turn, made a structural change and saved it (using Zennode with the same command as an external nodebuilder) it took virtually no time at all for each map and reduced the filesize to 11.4 meg.

I know it's probably a long shot, but does anyone know what the difference is between those methods, and therefore which one is better?

(for rebuilding the nodes in all my other wads with Zennode, and for future use on my current wad)

02-13-03 00:59 #

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Biffy
Forum Regular

Posts: 894
Registered: 02-01

That sounds to be too large a file size difference to be the result of variations in node building. I wonder if in either of your uses of zennode there was a difference in whether a reject table was built or not.

That file size difference makes we wonder if the copy of 007ltsd you started with has wasted space for some reason, can you check that? Wintex gives a report. If there was wasted space, just opening and saving with WA will eliminate it. Something odd is going on here, if you view all of the resources in each of those three files, are there some missing in the smaller files?

Edit: I just did the check. No wasted space. Tried node building with WARM, telling it to zero the reject tables. File size was slightly reduced, still over 16 mB. I think your smaller files are damaged somehow.

Last edited by Biffy on 02-13-03 at 01:58

02-13-03 01:47 #

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The Ultimate DooMer
(former) /newstuff Chronicler

Posts: 4449
Registered: 03-02

Well I ran through the first map and everything seemed ok, I guess I'll have to play the full thing through.

I've just checked it with Wintex and when I highlight the sidedefs lump in any map, I get an 'internal bug' error message which refuses to disappear without ctrl+alt+del. Maybe that's what's causing it. If so, does that mean I can't use it with WA?

02-13-03 11:13 #

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Brad_tilf
Redemption! Bath in its pure Light!

Posts: 603
Registered: 10-02

While I agree with you that zennode may well be the best nodes builder around, I agree with Biffy also that it sounds like something didn't come out right - unless you had a TON of wasted space. Lately I've been using bsp23x which was the only nodes builder I found that had the ability to make my last map, Bloodworks playable.
:-)

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02-13-03 14:30 #

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The Ultimate DooMer
(former) /newstuff Chronicler

Posts: 4449
Registered: 03-02

It could be, as Dark 7 had a ton of wasted space in it (that couldn't be cleaned by Wintex), but then again that might not have used WA's internal nodebuilder (it doesn't say in the text what editor was used) which is what I used for mine. But if I use Zennode to build a map from scratch, the file will come out a lot smaller than if I'd used the internal builder. (as I'm saving it in WA all the time, and not using the internal one and running Zennode on it afterwards)

So it's a bit of a puzzler, really. (as I'm not an expert in the field of nodebuilding)

02-13-03 17:48 #

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deep
as in Deepsea

Posts: 1066
Registered: 09-01

Ultimate DooMer said:
[BLTSD (filesize is 16.2 meg) ... using "zennode 007ltsd.wad" ... got reduced to 15.8 meg. ... opened LTSD up in WA .. each map...made a structural change .. saved .. Zennode...reduced the filesize to 11.4 meg.[/B]

Original I have is 16,590KB, after new nodes it's 16,196KB, because of smaller nodes control. Btw, there is no wasted space in original PWAD.

So something went wrong when you modified and saved:)

02-13-03 19:12 #

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Cyb

Posts: 2726
Registered: 07-02

Nodes are built by splitting sectors up and such (generally speaking of course, it's somewhat complex, you can read about it in the unofficial Doom specs). All the level data of SEGS, SSECTORS, NODES are all done via a nodes builder. The reject map will be the same size no matter what (a zero filled reject is the same size as a reject built with RMB that took a half hour to do for the same map). I'm not sure how Zennode specificaly goes about building nodes, but generally external nodes builders are a lot more efficient and have better methods of building nodes than internal ones (ie, Wauthor's internal builder is fairly sucky), so it is possible to save 0.4 megs of space over 9 maps, plus the fact that Zennode might have removed wasted space, this could account for some of that as well. Hm, let me try something...

Using Vrack3 (I have a beta hehe):

Original Size: 1679k
Size after building nodes with wauth: 1711k
Size after building with warm: 1676k

So building with a diff builder and it lost 35k of data. Not quite ~400k (I imagine the size diff wouldn't be nearly as great on a smaller maps like those in ltsd) so I'm sure some of it was due to wasted space in the wad (wintex is good for that, especially when you insert ZDoom lumps lke mapinfo and all that).

02-13-03 19:36 #

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deep
as in Deepsea

Posts: 1066
Registered: 09-01

To repeat - there is NO wasted space in the PWAD. It's all because the nodes are smaller (except the huge drop after the changes are something else).

02-13-03 20:36 #

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Biffy
Forum Regular

Posts: 894
Registered: 02-01

Brad_tilf said:
While I agree with you that zennode may well be the best nodes builder around, I agree with Biffy also that it sounds like something didn't come out right - unless you had a TON of wasted space. Lately I've been using bsp23x which was the only nodes builder I found that had the ability to make my last map, Bloodworks playable.
:-)

Did you try WARM? AFAIK it's better than BSP in terms of handling polyobjects better. Wasted space in 007ltsd...I found none as explained in my original post.

02-13-03 20:51 #

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The Ultimate DooMer
(former) /newstuff Chronicler

Posts: 4449
Registered: 03-02

I've found out why it's so much smaller - E4M1 played fine, but checking the console I find an 'incomplete bsp tree' message (like the one in Space Station Omega). Rebuilding outside of WA took the size back up to 15.8 meg and the console message disappears.

It seems that WA's internal nodebuilder and Zennode behave differently in WA - the former builds all the nodes each time you save, if they need building (as it seems to take the same amount of time if only a little is changed) and the latter builds the nodes for new/changed areas only (which is why it took no time at all when I tried it, and also why the bsp tree was incomplete).

I'm still gonna use it though, as although I won't get much of a size reduction it'll be a whole lot faster.

Thanks for all your help anyway.

02-13-03 23:33 #

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Cyb

Posts: 2726
Registered: 07-02

hehe I should read posts fully

02-14-03 00:19 #

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The Ultimate DooMer
(former) /newstuff Chronicler

Posts: 4449
Registered: 03-02

Ok, new problem. I ran Zennode (1.0.8) on the map I'm currently working on, then I opened it up in WA, put some new stuff in it, saved it (with Zennode as the external builder) and it says 'the map cannot be run' when I try to run it. Running the map outside of WA gives me that incomplete bsp tree message again. When I change back to internal and build again it will let me run it, and the bsp message disappears.

Is this a problem with Zennode itself, a problem with it running in WA (as it works fine outside with the same command line) or just a case of WA not liking external builders? (and I believe things like that have been brought up before)

02-14-03 00:33 #

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Cyb

Posts: 2726
Registered: 07-02

you may have the config wrong for an external builder (that's what it sounds like anyway). I haven't configed it myself, I just have it set to not build nodes and then I run warm myself from a cmd window. Check the wauth help files, I assume you have to do something like
c:\doomdir\zennode.exe $_Wadfile but I'm not sure

02-14-03 01:01 #

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