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Ultraviolet
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Most who read this post will probably think that I am preaching to the choir. However, due to having had the following grievances with wads released recently and not-so-recently, I feel that there is still a large body within the Doom community which is not quite aware...

BEFORE YOU RELEASE YOUR WAD:
- If you have used textures from another project, please be aware of the original source of the textures, both so you may credit those responsible, and so you may use the texture pack(s) that the textures came from rather than including them in your wad, saving yourself bandwidth when uploading and everyone else bandwidth when downloading. Redundantly speaking: Redundancy is highly inconvenient. If you must release your wad with a few megabytes worth of custom textures, please provide an alternate download for those of us who already have downloaded texture packs containing these textures. Good example, found in various wads: "This wad requires gothictx.wad."
Some texture packs may be found at [link to afterglow's].

- While custom sounds may be cool, in many cases they are simply a novelty, providing no enhancement to gameplay or atmosphere. If you must release them with your wad, please provide an alternate download stripped of the custom sounds. Rule of thumb: If it is not a "total conversion," "partial conversion," or "mod," then it probably doesn't need any custom sound replacements. Additional sounds for ambient effects are a different story.

- A custom TITLEPIC and so on for a one or two level wad? Oh come on...

BEFORE YOU RELEASE YOUR ZDOOM-SPECIFIC WAD:
- Please, PLEASE do NOT include the TERRAIN lump with the splash sounds and sprites from Hexen. Corwin has already created such a wad for ZDoom users to have auto-loaded containing these TERRAIN-lump definitions, sprites, and sounds, so by including these, you are including redundant entries and wasting bandwidth for everyone who downloads your wad. Corwin's TERRAIN definitions and splash sprites/sounds wad, revision three, may be found at [link to Nigel's, point to splash3.wad]. This is more a matter of community awareness and less common-sense, so it is more forgivable than the other points, but equally annoying.

I know this thread will either end up ignored, ATTN, or Post-Helled. In any case, please post replies describing any other common annoyances you have noticed so that mappers may read and be aware. If you have anything to add, please post.

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Old Post 03-11-03 12:26 #
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ReX
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Minor peeves:
    1. This is not an issue with files uploaded to 3DGamers' archives, but zip files that do not include text files are an annoyance. (Typically, however, such zip files are available at the author's sites, which are likely to contain the text information. Still, it's best to have the text file included, particularly if there are instructions to be followed.)
    2. Zip files that contain multiple wads, all of which need to be included in the command line during run time. For the user's convenience they should all be merged into one wad.
    3. Text files that lack important instructions on how to play the levels (e.g., if a source port is required, which source port and which version, the purpose of any batch files included, etc.)

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Old Post 03-11-03 13:07 #
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boris
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Oh come on, file size doesn't matter to the majority of internet users anymore.

BTW it ATTN'ed Muehahahahhahekkekekekekke ^________^

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Old Post 03-11-03 14:55 #
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Enjay
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boris said:
Oh come on, file size doesn't matter to the majority of internet users anymore.


Yeah, I agree totally. Size matters. The bigger the better. Gimme those big WADs. You never hear me moan about DL times. Nooooo I'm happy with my 56K modem in my house 7 miles from the nearest 'phone exchange so no chance of broadband even if they did upgrade the exchange (mutter mutter mutter)

Actually, good points Ultraviolet. There are a number of well known texture wads that I must have downloaded 6 or 7 times (maybe more) because they have been included in a WAD. Perhaps the "standard" ones (Gothic, Retres, Mortres + others) could be hosted in a nice central place (hint hint) then it would be easier for people to know about them and more convenient to provide URLs.

Rendundancy in WADs, especially through wasted space from imporperly deleted entries, is just sloppy editing IMO. There have been a number of WADs released in the last year or so that it was possible to reduce in size by well over 1mb simply by loading them into DeePsea and saving them again.

I don't mind the terrain thing if it is different to Corwins one and makes sense. I think splash3 is on my tripod site rather than my main site but I can't actually check atm as my internet access is semi borked.

I don't mind titlepics even for 1 level wads. They're not that big and give a nice intro.

Sounds, agreed. I must have about 5 copies of the psx sounds now, and I don't even like them that much! And the "funny" novelty sounds do wear thin very quickly.

And to add a specific point to ReX's comments (although it is actually covered by what he said) a bit of important information that should be in text files very prominantly IMO is if the map is not map01.

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Old Post 03-11-03 19:42 #
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boris
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I said majority, not everybody.
In the worst case you want 4 versions of a wad:
- with textures and sounds
- with textures without sound
- without textures and with sounds
- without everything
Now does that sound good?

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Old Post 03-11-03 21:17 #
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Enjay
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boris said:
I said majority, not everybody.

Heh, I wasn't getting at you, just using your comment as a spring board for my patented whine about my internet connection being slow.

without everything

Now that sounds like a small DL. Sign me up. :-)


Maybe I should start a new topic with a "who wants to help make a megawad with nothing in it" title. Nah, I know "everyone is too busy with their own projects". Looks like I'll have to make nothing on my own.

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Old Post 03-11-03 21:37 #
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Ultraviolet
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Ultraviolet said:
[link to afterglow's]
[link to Nigel's, point to splash3.wad]


Oops. I forgot about these, heh. I wrote this post up in a text file when my connection wasn't available, and I meant to get the URLs, but I forgot.

Boris: Thank you for your ATTN. KEKEKEKEKEKEKE...

I should probably post a link to this in the ZDoom phorums for the benefit of those that don't visit these forums.

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Old Post 03-11-03 21:37 #
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myk
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But the points still stand in terms of optimizing a release to make downloading easier (it also tends to help get rid of "noise".) Not necessarily splitting the WAD in pieces or anything, but checking that there's no redundant material. Pointing to a resource file instead of including the lumps in the PWAD might be a good idea if it's a resource WAD many people are likely to have already (such as gothictx) and if many of the resources are used, but maybe not in other cases (a rare set, of a just a handful of textures used.) As for sounds, if they go along with new graphics or stuff they make sense, but if they are just a selection of sounds the author thinks are cool or better than the originals, he or she migh as well include them separately and point out their location in the TXT.
Old Post 03-11-03 21:38 #
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Ultraviolet
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Myk: I could have sworn I got at that already. Redundancy! To the gallows with you!

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Old Post 03-11-03 21:53 #
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netnomad312
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Call it a habit, but I rarely ever DL something if it doesn't have new music. It's just... boring. If you can't make one, at least include one you like or one which fits the level's mood. Anyway...

I've created a couple of new textures that are just different color versions of existing ones, like BIGBRIK2 and SP_HOT1. I got the idea from Alien Vendetta (which I didn't like much but has some kickass patches), but made them myself using a program that actually has nothing to do with graphics editing - just one which happens to have a good tinting feature. :-) Anyway, they aren't terribly innovative, but they are technically new...

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Old Post 03-12-03 00:05 #
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myk
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Heh, Ultraviolet, that's because what I did was give a summary or rewriting of what I felt were the more valid points in your post as a reply to what was added by others above (thus my but the points still stand in terms of...)
Old Post 03-12-03 00:10 #
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ReX
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netnomad312 said:
I rarely ever DL something if it doesn't have new music.
You must have quite a small collection of wads, then. Heh.
If you can't make one, at least include one you like or one which fits the level's mood.
I've rarely given much consideration to music in a level, but I know that there are those for whom music makes or breaks a level. Still, including new music with every level seems excessive.

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Old Post 03-12-03 02:15 #
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netnomad312
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You must have quite a small collection of wads, then. Heh.

Maybe so, but I like almost every one of 'em. I guess the real reason I like new music is that almost nothing goes with the default Map01 music...

I've rarely given much consideration to music in a level, but I know that there are those for whom music makes or breaks a level. Still, including new music with every level seems excessive.

IMO, Doom isn't a goldmine of music. I'm planning on putting music in every one of my levels.

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Old Post 03-12-03 03:06 #
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Ultraviolet
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myk said:
but the points still stand

Was there ever any doubt? :P

netnomad312: Music sucks.
People with tastes like yours are why in my entire wad collection, I have each song from E1 scattered throughout about 50 times, along with a bunch of shitty Slayer/Slipknot/Manson/NIN midis. "Head Like a Hole" makes a catchy midi, but that's the ONLY one that really works in this context.

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Old Post 03-12-03 03:29 #
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ReX
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netnomad312 said:
....almost nothing goes with the default Map01 music...
That's why authors should assign their maps numbers that correspond to DooM/2 maps with appropriate music. I stopped making wads for Map01 for the same reason that you gave -- the music gets repetitive, and doesn't always fit the mood of a new map.
I'm planning on putting music in every one of my levels.
Good for you. I think that if people want to put new music in their levels they should be encouraged to do so.

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Old Post 03-12-03 13:09 #
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The Ultimate DooMer
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ReX said:
That's why authors should assign their maps numbers that correspond to DooM/2 maps with appropriate music. I stopped making wads for Map01 for the same reason that you gave -- the music gets repetitive, and doesn't always fit the mood of a new map.


You could of course take the tune of your choice and rename it D_RUNNIN (the mus entry doesn't take up much space in the wad)

I find that music works great on small and medium maps (given that most of the custom tunes I like are under 3 minutes) but can get annoying after a while on big maps. (unless it's a long tune that I really like)

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Old Post 03-12-03 14:03 #
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ReX
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Ultimate DooMer said:
You could of course take the tune of your choice and rename it D_RUNNIN (the mus entry doesn't take up much space in the wad)
Good point. However, I wonder if that constitutes distribution of stuff from the IWAD. Ty is probably not likely to give it a second thought when uploading it to /newstuff, but still...

Also, many mappers, typically newbies don't know about or don't want to mess with lump manipulation.

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Old Post 03-12-03 14:15 #
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netnomad312
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It's just that the new music can make or break the wad for me. I used Map01 as an example, but any of Doom 2's music gets repetitive. All of my favorite wads have new music. Perhaps my favorite megawad, Dimensions of Time, had a lot of it. I read in the txt that a good deal of it was taken from ROTT and Final Doom, and I've used a few of those tunes myself already (Ultimate DooMer noticed the ROTT tune I included in my demo when he reviewed it, for instance). Finally, it's good to plan ahead for the music. I've already moved a few MIDIs to this comp so that I can play them while I work; I've found that it helps me make levels better suited to the music (hell, I've known that since I used to make 2-D platformer games for my old website).

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Old Post 03-12-03 19:06 #
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I agree and disagree:)

1. I get pretty bored with levels that don't use new textures/sounds/music (ALL 3). Custom Titlepic included:)

2. I don't care about download size because of course I now have broadband (cable). I used to care about size with 26kb (hell, I still can't get 56k or DSL - the price of having the 1st phone line in my area) but only in terms of scheduling d'l at night while I slept.

3. I DO care if I have to read stuff just to get the complete resources. And then those resources may or may not be available.

4. I despise zips with all the stuff scattered in them and then I have to assemble them myself (I never trust their "bat" files - for obvious reasons - so that's more time I need to spend). [Ignoring newbie problems with same]

Summary:

Convenience over size and new stuff over size. Large drives are so inexpensive that the size on one's HD is hardly an issue.

Connections speeds same thing. I don't think one would want to stifle some creative person just because one's link is slow. It takes time for newbies to get a handle on just basics - so instilling them with false "size" standards is not a good idea.

Like with cpu speeds and screen sizes, this is a shifting issue. For example, my target audience is someone with at least 17" monitor, a PIII450 and 20GB hard drive. All of these are "obsolete" as of 2+ years ago - so that's why I consider that a reasonable goal. Anyone with less than this needs to put money in the piggy bank and upgrade. A machine like this is under $200 now.

One can't make everyone happy all the time. So I disagree with attempting to make size "standard" by excluding creative features which inevitably increase size. I confess I'm not fond of huge sound files - since the return back to the level is questionable.

Hell, you might as well say to -NOT- make LARGE and DETAILED levels since they make for large downloads. You see the comparison here I hope.

If one doesn't like large downloads - don't - it's your choice, but don't discourage creativity by bitching about download size.

Btw - where is your map Faint?
Old Post 03-12-03 20:54 #
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Ultraviolet
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Deep: Uh... I've had so many ideas that I don't know which you are talking about. Hell, just today, I had the idea of making _____ _____ (I'm not giving away my business idea here! I KNOW it would be a huge money-maker), but I doubt it'll ever get off the ground. An object (me) at rest (lazy) tends to stay at rest.

Did I ever tell you about the inch-thick Doom/General-FPS idea folder sitting on my desk?

And you know my ZStrife mod, right? Well, great to hear Randy is implementing Strife texture support, cuz' that's a huge part of my work already. If not for that, I might never have considered touching the project ever again. DEH/BEX for the monsters and weapons will be pretty easy, and I can refer to GooberMan's scripting for all the effects I need to do, so from here on out, as soon as Randy releases the next beta, I can really get moving on this...

Anyway, project overload. How I handle things like project overload is a bit silly... when I have too much to do, I often find things to be of equal priority, so instead of just picking one thing to sacrifice, I kill 'em all. I don't mean to do it, I just do.

So uh... what map are you talking about, anyway? Please remind me, I may have forgot to write this one down. I need to rework my organizational method...

And about detailed maps: Even huge, detailed maps aren't all that big filesize-wise, and I often see that people's creativity is not stifled by using the original textures. I always appreciate a level that uses the original textures in a new and interesting way.

About targetting mid-grade machines: Eh... I live somewhere where job availability sucks for someone my age. I'm not going back to fast food, no way in hell, I would kill first... besides, I need to put all my effort into graduating HS due to a few... uh... motivational problems that have bit me in the ass in the past. I'm sure I'm not the only one under this set of circumstances. Oh, and my parents typically don't buy me computer parts out of the blue.

Er... long post.

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Old Post 03-12-03 21:54 #
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netnomad312
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deep said:
1. I get pretty bored with levels that don't use new textures/sounds/music (ALL 3). Custom Titlepic included:)

I don't really care about the sound. But the other two, yeah. I'll tolerate a wad without new graphics, but I despise ones without music.

2. I don't care about download size because of course I now have broadband (cable). I used to care about size with 26kb (hell, I still can't get 56k or DSL - the price of having the 1st phone line in my area) but only in terms of scheduling d'l at night while I slept.

I can't even get DSL in my area. Count your blessings...

3. I DO care if I have to read stuff just to get the complete resources. And then those resources may or may not be available.

What do you mean by resources?

4. I despise zips with all the stuff scattered in them and then I have to assemble them myself (I never trust their "bat" files - for obvious reasons - so that's more time I need to spend). [Ignoring newbie problems with same]

I used to hate those, too. But I'm afraid I'll have to have a batch file because I have new sprites. Yes, I put them between SS_START and SS_END. But the game still crashes when they come into view (it's a green key, which is a total of four sprites).

Summary:
Convenience over size and new stuff over size. Large drives are so inexpensive that the size on one's HD is hardly an issue.

True. I have a 56k modem, but I have the patience to go with it. :-)

Connections speeds same thing. I don't think one would want to stifle some creative person just because one's link is slow. It takes time for newbies to get a handle on just basics - so instilling them with false "size" standards is not a good idea.

Um... ok.

Like with cpu speeds and screen sizes, this is a shifting issue. For example, my target audience is someone with at least 17" monitor, a PIII450 and 20GB hard drive. All of these are "obsolete" as of 2+ years ago - so that's why I consider that a reasonable goal. Anyone with less than this needs to put money in the piggy bank and upgrade. A machine like this is under $200 now.

Hehe... my machine is pretty much just like that. Except I have an imitation processor which is about the same. It's... *checks* an AMD Athlon.

One can't make everyone happy all the time. So I disagree with attempting to make size "standard" by excluding creative features which inevitably increase size. I confess I'm not fond of huge sound files - since the return back to the level is questionable.

Another reason why I dislike new sounds in wads.

Hell, you might as well say to -NOT- make LARGE and DETAILED levels since they make for large downloads. You see the comparison here I hope.

Hell yeah.

If one doesn't like large downloads - don't - it's your choice, but don't discourage creativity by bitching about download size.

I most certainly agree...

Btw - where is your map Faint?

Er... were you talking to me? Who or what is "Faint?"

Eep, long post... *grins sheepishly*

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Old Post 03-13-03 01:46 #
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rf`
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deep said:
Like with cpu speeds and screen sizes, this is a shifting issue. For example, my target audience is someone with at least 17" monitor, a PIII450 and 20GB hard drive. All of these are "obsolete" as of 2+ years ago - so that's why I consider that a reasonable goal. Anyone with less than this needs to put money in the piggy bank and upgrade. A machine like this is under $200 now.

15" monitor AMD K6-2 475mhz with 6gb hdd. Well one out of 3 isn't that bad. (yes it its.) :P
Old Post 03-13-03 01:51 #
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netnomad312 said:
Er... were you talking to me? Who or what is "Faint?"
Ultraviolet also goes by the handle 'Faint'.

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Old Post 03-13-03 02:33 #
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myk
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BEFORE you try to download something...

Read the TXT file. If you don't like what it describes, go do something else.
Old Post 03-13-03 12:47 #
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Ultraviolet
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The ZDoom phorummers know WASSAAPPPPP... or something...

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Old Post 03-13-03 12:49 #
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this isn't much of a problem fo' me- note ahead of time, all my levels (to date, and most planned) use traditional Doom 2 gfx. ZDoom and Boom supported ports can be used mainly 'cuz they're cool and they fix errors. If I am using new gfx, I'll say so, and have seperate downloads and (if they're not from me) have a link to the site its from for credit. I understand though, getting a free bloat package is annoying...
Old Post 03-16-03 21:58 #
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Shaviro
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ReX said:
Still, including new music with every level seems excessive.


heh wtf? RTC-3057 has SEVERAL songs per level. 3057demo had 5 songs for the first level alone! I have my own guidelines.

Before you release a level:

-Make sure all YOUR expectations are fulfilled.
That means:

-Do not attempt to cut down the file size by removing music, titlepics or whatnot if you feel your project is better off WITH it.

-Do not think of the 56k users when you are making your project.
-Do not think of the port haters/lovers.

The project should fulfill your own demands and not someone else's!

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Old Post 03-19-03 17:21 #
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Shav, you go girl!

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Old Post 03-19-03 17:23 #
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Ultraviolet
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Damn you Shaviro!!!

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Old Post 03-19-03 18:25 #
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Old Post 03-19-03 18:41 #
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