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Lord_Andres

All The Things You Need

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Hi I have a few ideas for Doom maps, so i was wondering if you guys could tell me what kind of stuff I need to make a good Mega WAD, thats what they are called right?, Im thinking of the things I need to create the map it self, textures, sounds, models all that stuff, and whare I could find it,

Thx :D

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What engine are you planning to build for? If you want to do editing, id choose ZDoom, but take a look at the list of engines to see what they are about. The ones in bold are the most popular ones.

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I wouldn't say that the bold ones are the most popular :)

In fact, one of the most updated and more popular ones isn't even listed: RISEN3D http://risen3d.newdoom.com/

It's GL for great looks (no ugly pixels up close), fast, supports hires textures (internally and externally) and soon interchangeable flats and textures and PNG stuff in a PWAD. Also supports MD2 models, plus does 3D floor over floor levels and is fully BOOM compatible.

But you'd have to run all of them with levels that exploit their features to see what is the most appealing to you. The greatest visual thing about GL ports is that you can make much more appealing graphics, such as alpha layered textures which can have very intricate detail not possible with software ports. For example a very subtle spider way.

Assuming you have a knack for making just the basic architecture, then the rest can be found in many places. Except for the models (unless you have enough time to make your own), it's pretty easy to get just about unlimited textures, sounds and "stuff" just by doing some Google searches and learning how to put them into your project.

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The fact that (almost) only you talk about it doesnt make it popular. It should be listed though, I'll add it to the list it for you. And it's indeed still being updated, thats nice.

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CodeImp said:

The ones in bold are the most popular ones.



Let's just say that the non-bold ones are the ones you don't have to bother with. Even some of the bold ones are more or less obscure but all the important ones are in bold.

And it's a real shame about Risen3D. Almost everything concerning this port is shrouded in secrecy which doesn't help it much. As long as that doesn't change it won't have a chance - which is a pity. From a technical standpoint it is clearly the best Doom port of all. It's amazing what kinds of special effects it can handle - where all other GL ports fail hopelessly.

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RISEN3D is not shrouded in secrecy at all. The source code has absolutely no value to people that make levels. IOW, source code and secret are not related to each other in the context of making and playing levels.

A coder might have an interest to see how it does what it does, but actually you can get most of the details from the JDOOM code. It's basically tweaking some essential non-obvious details. And even then, the code is dramatically different from ZDOOM. For example, ZDOOMGL would have a hard time adopting JDOOM stuff. It would take a very dedicated coder to figure out how it works. I'm pretty sure only those coders familiar with JDOOM would find the differences nteresting.

The code is in a major update mode. I'm giving him some code for general texture support (mostly done) so it will offer greater texture flexibility even more so than ZDOOM :) You can load the hi-res texture pack as a PWAD, making it duck simple to switch hi-res packs since that's essentially the same method used for stock DOOM.

Meaning no messing around with directories, nor special PK3 files, although all of those will be supported too. Perhaps JDOOM will use this code when the source gets released since it will pop right in the JDOOM code?

IOW this is a very dynamic evolving port. Graham is a very low profile developer. He is more interested in coding than spending time on forums (never).

I think it has a great chance to become one of the most popular GL ports since over time it will gradually add features to show off both graphic coolness and editing flexiblity. It is very difficult to do certain things in GL and still have speed.

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deep said:

RISEN3D is not shrouded in secrecy at all.


No?

So why is there no forum and no regular news? Without this most development will take place in a dark corner which only very few people will see.


[quote}
A coder might have an interest to see how it does what it does, but actually you can get most of the details from the JDOOM code. It's basically tweaking some essential non-obvious details.
[/quote]Exactly! Which is why I want to take a look at it! (And the thing that interests me most if of course how Risen3D manages to handle all these old rendering tricks no other GL port does.)

IOW this is a very dynamic evolving port. Graham is a very low profile developer. He is more interested in coding than spending time on forums (never).


It's not that I object to this attitude but this is the major reason why Risen3D is still not as popular as it should be. All other major ports have a forum where the users can discuss matters with the developers. It is essential for building a community and this clearly isn't happening.

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Graf Zahl said:

So why is there no forum and no regular news? Without this most development will take place in a dark corner which only very few people will see.

I always first assume that people can READ what I post and exercise some care in going to a site before they make claims. Sadly this is usually lacking in posts and this is no exception.

So reread the post Graf and see what I said. Or better yet I'll repeat it: Graham has NO INTEREST in a forum and there IS regular news - try to actually go to the R3D link and SEE the "what's new" file.

There is about 1 update a week - I'd say that's pretty significant. But you actually have to read it. What you think is important (or don't pay attention to) has literally nothing to do with whether a port is "secret". All the news is out in the open to those who can look up from the ground :)

Exactly! Which is why I want to take a look at it! (And the thing that interests me most if of course how Risen3D manages to handle all these old rendering tricks no other GL port does.)

So you want to look at it. Was that a reason for saying it was shrouded in secrecy? NO! My point was that this POV has nothing to do with secrecy and everything to do with you. I doubt very much that looking at the source code will reveal anything to you since you'd have to dedicate way more time that you realize and I doubt very much you'd do this and gain any indepth understanding. Only a dedicated JDOOM port coder may be able to pick up on it. Which is something I also already said. GL is way different from sofware ports - Not Even Close.

It's not that I object to this attitude but this is the major reason why Risen3D is still not as popular as it should be. All other major ports have a forum where the users can discuss matters with the developers. It is essential for building a community and this clearly isn't happening.

You assume that's our main goal. It's not. We are not after a popularity contest per se. Your goals are not mine nor Graham's. Nor does either of us have the time. In fact, what is interesting is that despite such a very low profile, I'm pretty sure RISEN3D is more used than some ports with forums :)

We both do it because we enjoy a challenge and secondly we enjoy coding with something PRETTY to look at. I think the final results will speak for themselves. It's already by far the most stable enhance GL port out there, not to mention speed and features. My interest happens to be complementary to Graham's, which is enhanced editing features, easier setup, etc. Stuff a port author never thinks about but a level designer does!

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Think about the fact that even most of the people who generally like Risen3D don't care much about its development. If you can draw the right conclusions and remedy the causes we have made a giant step forward. Until then the situation won't improve and my 'secrecy' statement stands.

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I can think of several ports which have on-line forums even though the person working on the port never/rarely visits them. It means that people who use the port can discuss the port with other users, help out any newbies who come along (newbies who would otherwise spam the author's e-mail account), etc. Why can't Risen3D be the same?

It would seem to me a good idea to encourage a community, even if you don't particularly want to be a part of it.

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I still haven't heard a good reason why the Risen3d source isn't available. No matter how close to JDoom, or how complicated it is, that's absolutely no reason not to release the code. It's not difficult to zip up the source dir and put it up for download, but the author seems to find it impossible.

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I still haven't heard a good reason what makes Risen3D any better in the editing area than, for example, ZDoom. It sounds to me like a kind of Doomsday or Legacy type of engine. I mean, its cool that it has Boom support, but other engines have that and with OpenGL I never really get the feeling its Doom. Maybe it needs something else, I dont know. You dont have to prove me wrong in an endless long post, its just my opinion in this offtopic discussion here and I dont really care if its any different.

Ill give this a try to go back ontopic;

Lord_Andres: The question I asked you above: What engine are you targeting at? What do you want to edit for and what do you have in mind?

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CodeImp said:
I still haven't heard a good reason what makes Risen3D any better in the editing area than, for example, ZDoom. It sounds to me like a kind of Doomsday or Legacy type of engine.
[/b]


(Oh the irony here. Your perception of this port is its biggest obstacle because the developers don't manage to get the points in favor of it across!)

The best way to sum up Risen3D is Doomsday with full Boom support and proper handling of many old rendering tricks. So far I haven't found a single level that didn't render properly with Risen3D and that is a huge achievement considering that Legacy, Doomsday, ZDoomGL and Vavoom all fail miserably - the last 2 the worst because they don't contain a shred of code to handle tricks.

I mean, its cool that it has Boom support, but other engines have that and with OpenGL I never really get the feeling its Doom.


That's your personal taste, not a real issue.

Maybe it needs something else, I dont know. You dont have to prove me wrong in an endless long post, its just my opinion in this offtopic discussion here and I dont really care if its any different.


It needs proper advertisement, a more open development team and a source code release. I stand by my opinion that the development takes place in secrecy and nobody is really able to see what the changes are between versions. Obscurity doesn't help a product and in the case of something good like this this is especially sad.

[/QUOTE]

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To make a megawad pack, first you have to choose which franchise you want... OpenGL maps, Fog, sector over sector, low-end machine support.... this implies you need a good port for those. For about textures and sounds... gosh, it´s so easy to find them out there. Prefer compatible textures (TIFF), and wav files, though. You will find tons just googling around (google - images search). please be careful with copyrighted ones, anyway! I prefer taking shots in the building walls near my home :D

I´m happy we have plenty of ports to choose from. Doom2 levels became a lot different ever since. In the ancient times, we used to be stuck with one monopolized port :/. This was MUCH worse than the discussion above. The fact is that we all, decent players and creative level designers, want a environment with plenty of cool effects and endless ways to explore a level, so every map could be played as unique, not like ´the same plot as X´, ´the same textures as Y´, and ´the same effects as Z´ :/

Port development may never end, this is very nice! They will keep adding new features, like gameplay scripts, hacks (I dream of having doom2 map showing your location at each end of each level, like doom1 was) and TC´s. These are gameplay features that should add ´uniquiness' even if all is made on the same port. Using DED´s, and other machinery, let each level ´play´ around with the limited doom engine.

I bear RISen, Doomsday, Legacy, all want to be special in some areas. It´s understandable. But problems arise, as the need of idea protection (if all ports were the same, why bother choosing this or that?) or worse, compatibility issues! Moreover, the need of having 4, 5, 6 ports at once :(. Doom2 community is spreading ever since!

In my opinion, the best would be not only ports being compatible to each other, but a bare 'God' Port, unique, flexible, and open enough, with plugins support for every doom port out there, to any level requesting it, like an AVI asks for a DIVX, XVID or FFD codec. :) It´s not easy but it´s not impossible in the near future. And we´ll be blessed with portable unique-ported made levels. :)

In the meantime... let´s get the most of each port limits!

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Open development wouldn't help one IOTA. It's one of those perpertual myths that the current population seems to think solves everything. It doesn't. It's an invalid argument intended to cause trouble nothing else. Posts like Graf's are intended to cause trouble but not very accurate. Most people could care less since source code means nothing to 99.99% of the population.

I think the CUBE author expressed a similar opinion some time ago. And he's correct which was surprising to read from a relatively young author.

There is a small coding core (1 or 2) of people on any port (or editor) and they work like bandits, plus a few testers. Everybody else just sits and watches. Too many cooks just screws things up. IOW, your perception is clearly not the way it works in real life using valid actual comparison ports. If you care to check this out you'll see that's the way it works relative to DOOM stuff (a small community).

And that's the way it is with RISEN3D. NO DIFFERENT than any other small project. For other comparisons look at DUKE3D ports - same thing there.

Timmie (ZDOOMGL - ONE coder) was offered the code for the "tricks" but he wasn't interested. I imagine because it's so different and not trivial to incorporate, but I don't really know why since I tried to encourage him to look.

The best way to sum up RISEN3D is as follows (it's quite unique): Although visually stunning like JDOOM with optional MD2 models, particles, and other cool GL stuff these are the extras:

1. full BOOM support.
2. FAST - faster than software ports in most levels
3. 3D floor over floor - I'd like to change how that's done though
4. will have extremely flexible texture support in full 32bit glory
5. renders most levels that cripple all other GL ports if they run them at all. There are some user mistakes that may fail. Graham is dedicated to also emulating mistakes so that's pretty rare. I myself don't care if it's a user mistake.
6. supports huge levels even some that crash ZDOOM
7. Provides a true "just like in the game" texture editing alignment experience. Shows thing placements either in sprite or model mode. (And more to be added).

When the final texture stuff is done (I just sent the code for integration) then I'll post some more about it. That version will make it possible to run any DOOM format level with any sort of graphics. (DOOM Hexen format levels can be displayed minus the polyobjects in edit mode.)

There are some other improvements that I will put in so it's easier to start. JDOOM has a very non-standard way of launching, meaning the launcher was just about a requirement. I'm going to make the launcher totally optional for just starting out.

Everybody is able to see the changes between the version, but as I said before you have to look. Don't keep repeating things that aren't true. It's both annoying and lacking in due diligence. It's even easier to find out then ZDOOM, just read the "what's new" text. Tells ALL. Hardly obscure. The sad part is that although this is now the 3rd time I've explained this, you keep repeating the same thing. Why?

So in conclusion for the guy that started this thread: This is an ongoing active current technology port that provides many of the features asked about. RISEN3D provides a balance of features that IMO is more geared towards easy editing and visual effects. Other ports offer different aspects that may or may not appeal to you. I personally find giant software pixels quite annoying and no amount of scripting can fix that. But that's just me :)

P.S. the definition of "doom experience" is playing DOOM levels. Anything else is meaningless. NO PORT today plays DOOM like the original engine - thank god - otherwise nobody would be bothering with any of this.

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I'm with Deep.

I'd like to take a look at the code since I've spent quite a lot of time with the Doomsday source (I still don't know how it all works though) so it would be interesting to see the changes. I've given up on persuing coding with the Doomsday 1.8.x code base since 2.0 is now on the horizon and sounding vastly superior.

Risen3D and Doomsday have very much gone their seperate ways now. Since Risen3D forked from Doomsday (around 1.7.6 ?) a lot has changed in Doomsday so I don't know how easy it might be to drop in Risen3D code.

Doomsday, Risen3D and ZdoomGL are the only ports on my box, the others last only as long as a specific wad requires. Other than Eternity which I'm playing with atm.

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deep said:

Open development wouldn't help one IOTA. It's one of those perpertual myths that the current population seems to think solves everything. It doesn't. It's an invalid argument intended to cause trouble nothing else. Posts like Graf's are intended to cause trouble but not very accurate. Most people could care less since source code means nothing to 99.99% of the population.


blah, blah, blah!

The same old Deep: accusing others of his own misdeeds. Of course Deep is God, and Deep is always correct and any opposition is shouted down in a rude manner.

Frankly, I have given up all hope that the situation with Risen3D will ever improve. The reason: You! Since you are involved in this project any civilized discussion is impossible.
And that's all I have to say about this.

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I second that. I don't like it when Doom looks very graphical and good looking, ordinary Doom is good enough for me. I don't even download maps for Legacy or jDoom or anything like that.

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Graf Zahl said:

.. repeated ..

What is amazing about you Graf is that you can't see how you fit your own definition again. If someone disagrees with you and objectively describes how what you say can't be true, you always bail out and immediately start a personal attack. It has never failed. You make false invalid statements and then refuse to backup you statements. What is that called?

Can't you ever stay objective and back up what you claim is true? Seems that would be easy enough to do and in fact you always do so if you think you have a valid point. But you don't.

The explanation above was quite objective where applicable and subjective where my own preference became involved. I showed how what you claimed is nonsense. It's NOT secret. RISEN3D News is constant and easy to find (vs having to look in a developers log in the source). All that's required are a few developers and good testers - that's what all the ports have.

Everyone has their own slant on things. A pure software port can't leverage the GL (or DX) api's to easily make a true 32 bit renderer with alpha support. It's much simpler to do a software port.

The GL ports are for people with at least a PIII 800 and at least a GF2 (and above for the larger levels with a lot of textures). That's a pretty low end machine.

More and more people ask for basic requirements that can only be met with newer technology. This post starter is a prime example.

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DaniJ said:

I'm with Deep.

I'd like to take a look at the code since I've spent quite a lot of time with the Doomsday source (I still don't know how it all works though) so it would be interesting to see the changes. I've given up on persuing coding with the Doomsday 1.8.x code base since 2.0 is now on the horizon and sounding vastly superior.

Risen3D and Doomsday have very much gone their seperate ways now. Since Risen3D forked from Doomsday (around 1.7.6 ?) a lot has changed in Doomsday so I don't know how easy it might be to drop in Risen3D code.

Doomsday, Risen3D and ZdoomGL are the only ports on my box, the others last only as long as a specific wad requires. Other than Eternity which I'm playing with atm.

(I slit this post up because it's a different topic.)

I think it would be fairly easy to use R3D code - although it's time consuming to incorporate the analyzer code (very complex). IOW, the time it takes is a different issue from technical issues (if that makes sense).

To me the code is virtually identical at it's heart. The biggest difference is NO game dll's which actually makes it much simpler to work with R3D in terms of debugging.

So how much will be used depends on the time one spends and how interested one is in the results offered. JK has his own slant and I doubt he'd be interested (he was also offered the BOOM stuff). Each developer has their own preferences and priorities. Mine are towards a gradual consolidation of the most relevant features that are easy to use and look the best.

As somebody said (I think), some levels demand certain ports. Most levels are more generic. Visual preferences are definitely going to be hires, cool stuff. The gaming console evolution is a prime example of this fact. Some of the gamecube games are a blast in their new rendering - like Mario Kart. Even though my daughter beats me :)

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So how much will be used depends on the time one spends and how interested one is in the results offered. JK has his own slant and I doubt he'd be interested (he was also offered the BOOM stuff). Each developer has their own preferences and priorities. Mine are towards a gradual consolidation of the most relevant features that are easy to use and look the best.

That's why yours compliments Graham's work on Risen3D. An area (editing features) which I'm interested in with Doomsday.

Re analyzer
That is specificaly what I'm interested in. The current Doomsday uses a plugin to load a map so I was thinking of merging the logic from analyzer into it.

Re JK
Doom isn't the focus of Doomsday, the focus is on creating a universal engine capable of playing all <3D Doom-like games. The funny thing about it is that in order to achieve this goal - all the Doomsday games will eventually inherit all the editing features from ANY supported game. So in a round-about way jDoom will probably end up with more editing features than even Zdoom.

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Doomsday could be, in the near future, that kind of a ´God´ port of doom-like games, which a particular game will only require a different plugin, otherwise doomsday .EXE could expand to undesirable sizes...

However, Doomsday will tend to priorize one type game at a time. Whilst improving with Heretic features, for example, another port 100% dedicated to heretic will succeed in the end. It´s difficult to remain 'top-notch' and updated all the time. Plugins, on the other hand, could take care of that. Each plugin for each developer! :)

Why to reinvent the whell? A God port (DoomsdayCore) could use all the basic things every plugin could extend, and the uniqueness of each will be guaranteed.

I´m sticking with Zdoom, because it´s more low-level (hacking, scripts...) :P

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That's exactly the way Doomsday is headed. For instance in the next version (Doomsday 2.0) ACS is being merged with DED, InFine, XG and the console into one game-independant scripting language, natively supported in the engine. Each game (plugin) will only use the features of the engine it needs/wants.

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DaniJ said:

Re analyzer
That is specificaly what I'm interested in. The current Doomsday uses a plugin to load a map so I was thinking of merging the logic from analyzer into it.

Re JK
Doom isn't the focus of Doomsday, the focus is on creating a universal engine capable of playing all <3D Doom-like games. The funny thing about it is that in order to achieve this goal - all the Doomsday games will eventually inherit all the editing features from ANY supported game. So in a round-about way jDoom will probably end up with more editing features than even Zdoom.

Don't think you can do the analyzer as a plugin. You have to rewrite the render code. Plugin sounds nice, until you get to deal with the nitty gritty of a level. I suppose if he lets the renderer be replaced that would work? Awful lot of work though since at load time you do all the analysis, so you also have to get control right after the level is loaded. Haven't looked to see if you can do that?? If not, then it's not possible.

Also don't think that "universal" is possible in a finite lifetime:) I've worked some with converting DOOM levels to QUAKE (via some conversion code I wrote). The rendering methods are worlds apart and some levels were impossible to convert. IOW, when dealing with totally different methods the problems are enormous. Sort of like putting a US thread size bolt into a metric hole - You can make it fit, but you'll break stuff :)

There are many prime "stock DOOM" levels that demonstrate this issue in JDOOM. IOW, if it can't even render what are considered regular DOOM levels, what problems do you think will pop up with "other" formats?

Nothing against the goal (it's nice to set a difficult goal), just possibly not doable in a reasonable time.

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Hmmm. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what the analyzer does in that case. Does it not read the level at startup and then add its findings to a bunch of lists, latter referenced in the renderer code for eg selfreferencing sectors and the like? I understand that the renderer would need changes but the analizing should be possible in a plugin (saving the info to a temporary file), after all glBSP, and the DEHACKED reader function as plugins. Since the 1.8.x series is now in maintence mode it would be pointless making any changes in the renderer at this stage but the analyzer algos could be useful in 2.0

There are many prime "stock DOOM" levels that demonstrate this issue in JDOOM. IOW, if it can't even render what are considered regular DOOM levels, what problems do you think will pop up with "other" formats?

You are surely talking about wads that use "tricks" that worked in the original EXEs because other than those I've yet to find a regular DOOM level that doesn't work. If you know of any I'd be interested to see what the problems are.

Also don't think that "universal" is possible in a finite lifetime:) I've worked some with converting DOOM levels to QUAKE (via some conversion code I wrote). The rendering methods are worlds apart and some levels were impossible to convert. IOW, when dealing with totally different methods the problems are enormous

Yes but we arn't talking about moving to a true 3D architecture, the aim is to support all <3D fps games. If you look below the surface of the DOOM and BUILD engines (for example) they are drasticaly different in execution but there is no reason why an engine could not be made to run both games. Obviously some decisions would need to made from the outset in regards to the static 2D BSP(it would have to go, in favor of a more modern 3D method that doesn't care if dynamic or static) and other things like how to clip but in essence they are the same games. Skyjake has expressed a few times that in all likely-hood all games supported in Doomsday 2.0 would be reduced to nothing more than a set of externaly defined scripts and definitions (the ai, monsters etc) and then the game logic as a plugin that interfaces the engine through an API (plus the original graphic/audio data resources of course).

I'm fairly sure Duke support will come in a future ZDoom as Randy, like Skyjake, seem interested in moving to a more BUILD like environment. Since Doomsday 2.0 will be an OpenGL hardware accelerated renderer a lot of the issues facing ZDoom simply don't factor at all in Doomsday (as I'm sure your aware).

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