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The Smith
Warming Up


Posts: 11
Registered: 05-08
I know everyone probably bases their first proper map on either MAP01 or E1M1, and I apologise for being no different. However, I'd like to think that unoriginal idea aside, my map aspires to something better than WOW.wad or nuts.wad. So, I present a few images of the few rooms I've made so far:

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/solarconquest/DOOM02-2.jpg
Looking from the start door into my version of the "pillars and windows" room.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/solarconquest/DOOM03-1.jpg
Looking from the window end of the big room up to the stairs to the Armor and overlook room. The stairs are now automated and pop up when you walk into the room.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/solarconquest/DOOM04-1.jpg
Looking from the overlook room down into the "pillars" room.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/solarconquest/DOOM05-1.jpg
Looking across the main room down to the door out (what would usually lead to the "Big Computer Room" and slime room)

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/solarconquest/DOOM06-1.jpg
Looking back into the main first room from the "Small Computer Room." Not shown in this image is another small door which will lead to a secret "Pump" room.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/solarconquest/DOOM07-1.jpg
The outdoor courtyard has been replaced with this big room, which will contain three doors. The one right at the end will link to the main room via a series of passages, there's another one in a side room which will lead to a key you need to exit and the one on the catwalk will lead to the (locked) exit. This room is meant to combine the courtyard secret and the Slime room, and the secret will be somewhere else.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/solarconquest/DOOM08.jpg
Looking up at the window in the main room. This area is a lot lower (unlike E1M1's courtyard area) vertically and so I find it more interesting.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/solarconquest/DOOM09-1.jpg
Looking from the end of the big Computer room towards the side room, and showing part of the "supercomputer" brush model.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/solarconquest/DOOM11.jpg
The side room itself. I've got my back to the door to show off the control panel and "energy core" brush model.

In terms of play-style, I'm basing this map more on a Doom 2 model (get key, take door you couldn't take before) as opposed to a "enter area, get key on the way, proceed." one. The map uses things like rising staircases, scrolling textures etc which I picked up from .wads like Deus Vult 2 and (of course) Doom 2.

It's probably nothing special, but it's my first serious map and so if people could tell me if it's absolutely horrendous/just about worth keeping on with/doing fine then I'd be real grateful.
Old Post 05-20-08 20:56 #
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Lord_Z
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Posts: 304
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It looks like your making good progress, I like it. I think this could turn out to be a fairly good level. Really reminds me of E1M1 but it has been changed enough to be a completely different level which I also like. Good work.
Old Post 05-20-08 21:10 #
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Butts
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Posts: 799
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you are off to a great start. some advice, play all the 5 star wads and learn from them. i havent played your map yet so i dont know how it will be, but i can offer aesthetic advice if you like.
Old Post 05-20-08 23:46 #
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The Smith
Warming Up


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Butts said:
you are off to a great start. some advice, play all the 5 star wads and learn from them. i havent played your map yet so i dont know how it will be, but i can offer aesthetic advice if you like.


Aesthetic advice is actually what I'm looking for. I'm not putting items or monsters in until the architecture is perfect.
Old Post 05-20-08 23:54 #
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Creaphis
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Aesthetically, I really like what I'm seeing. You don't need to hear what I'm about to say, as it looks like you already have a handle on interesting architecture, but I want to say it anyway. Lots of people think that the visual appeal of Doom maps can be equated with the level of detail. When looking at a Doom map that looks bad, many will say "more detail." This isn't the best outlook. Architectural shape and appropriate texture use are much more important than whether you use a whole mess of sectors and lines in a single room. So keep up the good work.

You are allowed to use other ceiling/floor textures though.
Old Post 05-21-08 00:25 #
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The Smith
Warming Up


Posts: 11
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Status Update!

I've done some more work, not a lot though. Just formalising a secret (rather than the "outside passage" secret there's an indoor one) and beginning my take on the "slime room." I always thought E1M1's slime room looked wacky, and didn't jive with the relatively human rest of the map. So my version is going to be a clinical pumping station with some nasty pools of slime about.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/solarconquest/DOOM101.jpg
The secret. Perhaps it's too powerful? I don't know, I haven't put any enemies in yet!

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/solarconquest/DOOM102.jpg
This may remind you of a similar corridor in E1M1...

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/solarconquest/DOOM103.jpg
But now it's automatic.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/solarconquest/DOOM104.jpg
And here's the problem. I'm not sure what to do with this room. Aside from a lowered area you can't see here, I'm not sure what else to add to this room. Got any ideas for cool things for a kind of "tech-y" nukage area?
Old Post 05-21-08 01:15 #
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myk
patron mod of ugly ducklings and black sheep


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I don't think you should necessarily add anything to that room, although the gray texture is too plain, perhaps. In any case, I like your relatively simple lighting. I think that due to the engine's limitations, lighting from any source should be limited to light, shadow, and an intermediate penumbra if necessary.

What engines is this being tested with? Does it use special features or only standard features? Is it for any limit removing engines?
Old Post 05-21-08 01:32 #
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The Smith
Warming Up


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myk said:
I don't think you should necessarily add anything to that room, although the gray texture is too plain, perhaps. In any case, I like your relatively simple lighting. I think that due to the engine's limitations, lighting from any source should be limited to light, shadow, and an intermediate penumbra if necessary.

What engines is this being tested with? Does it use special features or only standard features? Is it for any limit removing engines?


I'm using Skulltag with OpenGL set to "mipmap" and the most basic light effects. I'll post some comparison shots using Software rendering, if people like. However, I'm hoping to add some special Skulltag/GZDoom features and so can't really roll back to DOOM2.exe!

I'd agree on lighting. While the awesome shadow effects maps like Hell Revealed and Scythe 2 use are cool, they're a lot of effort for what is basically a workaround, and there's a certain charm in Doom's two-tone lighting.

I probably won't use thousands of monsters/particle effects though - this isn't Deus Vult.
Old Post 05-21-08 01:52 #
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Ryathaen
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I like the look of your map layouts. It seems to have a real lack of symmetry and copy/paste details, which is good. Your textures and texture coordination could use some work, though. Most of the flats and textures you used don't work together.
Old Post 05-21-08 02:28 #
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JohnnyRancid
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I think you overuse that yellow diagonal caution tape texture. There's plenty of other textures that can easily be substituted in its place.
Old Post 05-21-08 03:34 #
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Butts
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yeah, certain parts of your map from what i see use a slightly excessive amount of caution, and its one thing that bothers me abot some maps is when people go overboard with the yellow and black stripes. as for the gray texture being plain, you can just add borders around the floor/ceiling (preferably just ceiling), add some wall detail, put supports in the wall, its no big deal really but little things like that help break the plain-ness. but i agree with the folks who said that architecture and texture choice are most important. also, the flats you use should also match up with the texture you are using. you can always just stick a border around the ground where the texture meets with the ground also. take a look at 32-in-24 7 and see what some of the maps in there do for detail. there are plenty of well detailed maps in there and you should be able to immediately tell which maps look good. although its far from perfect, check out some of the stuff i did with my map in it i think its number 21. also, check out realm667/tutorials for a tutorial on how to detail. there is also some thread in skulltag by esselfortium i think that should also help. download the megawad Crucified Dreams, it has some of the nicest detailing around in doom, its worth it to learn from. i said a lot, i hope i helped....
Old Post 05-21-08 06:57 #
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Mik57
Junior Member


Posts: 192
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Nice, maybe you can put a computer console hooked up to the slime processor thing. But dont just make rooms with pointless slime on the ground, like the original E1M1. Also, what texture pack are you using?
Old Post 05-21-08 23:27 #
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The Smith
Warming Up


Posts: 11
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I'm using the Skulltag textures with DOOM2.wad providing additional ones. Skulltag seems to add a ton of variants on things like COMPTALL, the TEKGREN textures and many walls and so on.
Old Post 05-22-08 00:10 #
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JohnnyRancid
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another thing I want to comment on is that your map doesn't seem to have a texture theme. It's like a bunch of different themes molded into one.
Old Post 05-22-08 21:13 #
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Lord_Z
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Sometimes that can work though, and I think in this case it's not looking too bad.
Old Post 05-23-08 07:02 #
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esselfortium
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I've got to agree with JohnnyRancid. It's less about the lack of a theme like "tech" or "hell" or whatever, and more just that there are a lot of clashing colors and stuff everywhere. Also, Skulltag.wad resources have some good stuff in there from various texture packs, but as a whole it kind of sucks. :(

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Old Post 05-23-08 07:07 #
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Chris Hansen
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JohnnyRancid said:
another thing I want to comment on is that your map doesn't seem to have a texture theme. It's like a bunch of different themes molded into one.


Sorry, but I couldn't read that without mentioning how much I disagree. Right from the first couple of screenshots I saw, I was thinking to myself: "Finally, a newcomer who's not ultra eager to put every single texture Doom has to offer into his level! He's actually resisting and trying to stick to a theme!" And that would be tech.

Anyway, I think it looks pretty good and show good promise. Keep up the good work!
Old Post 05-23-08 09:28 #
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dutch devil
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Looks good the textures look an bit messy, too many different types and colors.Personally I really don't like seeing FLOOR4_8 on the ceiling, just my taste I guess.You should fix texture misalignments on the Y and X axis, ditch that gray texture its ugly.

Looks pretty good for an first map, keep shaving on it.
Old Post 05-23-08 21:04 #
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JohnnyRancid
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Oh I know it's a tech theme, it's like a compilation of every type of tech color scheme imaginable molded into one map. Pretty much like what Dutch Devil just said.
Old Post 05-24-08 00:32 #
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Chris Hansen
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So, what you're saying is that he's only allowed to use grey and black instead of grey, black, green, blue and brown? I'm sorry, but I fail to see the problem. All he needs is a bit more structure and alignment and it would be pretty cool. There's tons of levels of out there that uses plenty of different textures and still manages to look good. And I still don't think he's using "every type of tech color scheme imaginable", that's just silly.
Old Post 05-24-08 09:00 #
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The Smith
Warming Up


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Sorry I haven't had my say for a while, I've been rather busy.

The reason I'm using a variety of textures is because I felt that different areas of the map could have slightly different styles, so you wouldn't get lost or confused.

Also, I'd like to highlight E2M2 and E2M3 of Back To Basics as examples of maps which use different tech textures in different regions of the map, and which do it well.
Old Post 05-24-08 10:15 #
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esselfortium
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I think the main issue, color-wise, is that there's a lot of bright green, yellow (from the warning stripes), and blue, all sort of mixed together.

It's definitely possible (and desirable) to give a map a strong color theme without overloading it, but I think there's just too many bright clashing colors near each other here. Removing most of the warning stripes (i.e. YELLOW!) would help, both color-wise and in some other ways.

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Old Post 05-24-08 16:18 #
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The Smith
Warming Up


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esselfortium said:
I think the main issue, color-wise, is that there's a lot of bright green, yellow (from the warning stripes), and blue, all sort of mixed together.

It's definitely possible (and desirable) to give a map a strong color theme without overloading it, but I think there's just too many bright clashing colors near each other here. Removing most of the warning stripes (i.e. YELLOW!) would help, both color-wise and in some other ways.


I've been going through and doing that, actually. I'll put up some pictures in time, but I'm looking mostly for a green-ish map. I may also change the blue carpet for something else.

Also, are you esselfortium from SA?
Old Post 05-24-08 16:43 #
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esselfortium
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The Smith said:
Also, are you esselfortium from SA?

The one and only :P

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Old Post 05-24-08 17:04 #
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Death-Destiny
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I agree with Chris Hansen that I don't see a problem with using that many colors. My own maps seldom follow conventional color combinations or texturing schemes. Even so, I and some people who play my maps think it looks good, if not a bit strange. The only reason people say not to do this is simply because it is not something they use or see all the time, that is to say, it's unusual. But such color schemes often look very good and I'm surprised that they're so uncommon.

The Smith, I like what I'm seeing from your screenies. Keep at it and you'll have a nice looking map in my opinion. =)
Old Post 05-24-08 17:38 #
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K!r4
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Requiem have a lot of maps with many colors themes and it have a great success... it's just hard to do something nice with this way.
Anyway for a first map it looks very nice !
Old Post 05-24-08 21:22 #
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The Smith
Warming Up


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I've hit a wall on good architecture for a bit now I've linked the map up to the large computer room (I just need to add the maze leading to the key for the exit, and the route to the exit itself) and so I've applied myself to adding monsters. My plan for the map is almost exclusive use of Zombies, Sergeants and Chaingunners with a few Lost Souls for spice - that way, I can get away with no ammo placement and force the player to rely on kills for ammo. There's a Skulltag minigun in a secret just over half-way through the map which would give the player the edge in a nasty fight against 4 Chaingunners and 4 Sergeants in a confined space. Health in the level is reduced to 2 Stimpaks and a single med kit (only on Ultra-Violence, mind!) so you really need to kill fast and keep killing. I didn't feel E1M1 (the orginial) made you feel like you were "Knee Deep in the Dead" so this version will have about 150-200 human monsters in, alongside some heavy firepower.
Old Post 05-25-08 15:34 #
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