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cactus
rhymes with Moebius

Posts: 124
Registered: 10-02

Anyone heard about this?
it's a attempt to port doom engine to flash:

http://doomedonline.googlecode.com/files/doom.swf

(hit left or right key repetitely to turn)

Maybe with a little help from some people from here,
a web platform sourceport could be created.
some boom online version.

it reminded me this:

http://ruinworld.sourceforge.net/demo/nov24/Ruin.php

another one:

http://www.theintraclinic.com/stark/play_large.html

I don't understand why really nobody seems interested in those interesting ports, or why creators never get wad compatibility
etc.

Imagine the cool opportunity of making some sourceport using
url linking or url hubs wad! could be cool...
Anyway what do you think of all this?

Last edited by cactus on 08-13-08 at 21:55

08-12-08 22:19 #

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Creaphis
I will deliberately take a contrary position just for the sake of writing incredibly long arguments

Posts: 1296
Registered: 10-05

Okay, I just tried Ruin, and it was a painful experience (why would those horrible controls be default?) but interesting. It has a terribly long way to go before being a game, of course.

A full flash port of Doom would be interesting, but mostly as a curiosity, I'd expect. How possible is that?

08-12-08 22:36 #

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MikeRS
Doomworld is so about bullshit excuses

Posts: 460
Registered: 06-05

cactus said:
I don't understand why really nobody seems interested in those interesting ports, or why creators never get wad compatibility etc.

Because it's a dumb idea when you can just play Doom natively.

08-13-08 00:23 #

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kaiser_wilhelm
Mini-Member

Posts: 66
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I think its a good idea. It seems that quite a few people think its a good idea to have browser based programs like, for example, there is some sort of drafting or drawing program that is browser based.

08-13-08 01:59 #

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cactus
rhymes with Moebius

Posts: 124
Registered: 10-02

I edited the thread, showing another nice applet.

Kaiser,yeah,
Doom engine being something light,
I think possiblities and potentiality
are really interesting...

08-13-08 21:57 #

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kaiser_wilhelm
Mini-Member

Posts: 66
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Its weird that in both engines if they are not the same, all they are are basically tech demos. But it would definitely be cool as browser based. As you know, they could only use the shareware wads for now...

08-14-08 08:52 #

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Planky
Member

Posts: 600
Registered: 12-02

MikeRS said:

Because it's a dumb idea when you can just play Doom natively.

Tell that to the people who are lining up to play Quake Live.

08-15-08 03:39 #

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MikeRS
Doomworld is so about bullshit excuses

Posts: 460
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Popularity is no excuse for a dumb idea.

08-15-08 04:34 #

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MasterOFDeath
Member

Posts: 529
Registered: 03-04

MikeRS said:
Popularity is no excuse for a dumb idea.

Then you don't have to play it. Personally I think this is a really cool experiment with flash, and I find it impressive so far.

08-15-08 21:54 #

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rpeter
Mini-Member

Posts: 53
Registered: 02-04

MikeRS said:
Popularity is no excuse for a dumb idea.

Coders port Doom because coding is fun. And since the Doom engine is written in a language rarely used today for standard business applications coders try to convert it into the language they use for application development. So there are ports to C++, Delphi, Java, C#, whatever.

If you have a hammer everything looks like a nail: I wonder if we'll see a SAP or PL/SQL expert do a Doom port.

08-16-08 17:06 #

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iceman57
Junior Member

Posts: 183
Registered: 11-06

Owh fuck yes on SAP !!
Whole company is equiped with and real time connected with.
200.000. simultaneous online potential players, sounds amazing, office will never look so fun :D

08-17-08 16:28 #

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Gez
Member

Posts: 383
Registered: 07-07

Idle thought born from this thread: a Flash port of something like PrBoom could be used to make a "Doom demo YouTube" (DoomTube?)... It would load the wad and the demo lump and play it. It wouldn't let the viewer play, though, for legal reasons. Just watch demos.

08-17-08 16:39 #

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iceman57
Junior Member

Posts: 183
Registered: 11-06

What about a VIRTUA COP DOOM :D

http://www.deafgamers.com/vc1.jpg http://www.arcadewarehouse.com/Content/Images/366/Virtua%20Cop.jpg
_____

Honestly, Doom on all machines, but there are some machine where Doom is not welcome due to gameplay.

I wouldn't be harming but i.e. on Iphone...

Okay it's a nice telephone but touchpad for gaming is hell, I saw a guy playing Tetris in the suburb train.
That was a hell to play, no blocks falls in the right place due to finger moves... so for shooting badasses in corridors, no way to survive longer than a minute.

In my opinion, Doom could be ported on any machine with keys or buttons... rest is gadget.

08-17-08 18:16 #

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DoomKn1ght
Mini-Member

Posts: 90
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Gez said:
Idle thought born from this thread: a Flash port of something like PrBoom could be used to make a "Doom demo YouTube" (DoomTube?)... It would load the wad and the demo lump and play it. It wouldn't let the viewer play, though, for legal reasons. Just watch demos.

DoomTube would be awesone, yes prboom or zdoom.
zdoom supporte more map format but prboom is better for demos.

Doom on arcade machines would be cool, but it's hard to have
an arcade at home.

nintendo wii has some original controller but would be hard to port
on that console if it isn't already.

Last edited by DoomKn1ght on 08-17-08 at 21:22

08-17-08 21:15 #

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cactus
rhymes with Moebius

Posts: 124
Registered: 10-02

DoomTube would be awesone, yes prboom or zdoom.
zdoom supporte more map format but prboom is better for demos.

Sure but, rhaa a zdoom online/php/java/flash version would really rock!

=D

Gez your doomtube idea is simply awesome!

08-17-08 22:44 #

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MikeRS
Doomworld is so about bullshit excuses

Posts: 460
Registered: 06-05

Gez said:
Idle thought born from this thread: a Flash port of something like PrBoom could be used to make a "Doom demo YouTube" (DoomTube?)... It would load the wad and the demo lump and play it. It wouldn't let the viewer play, though, for legal reasons. Just watch demos.

That actually sounds like a good idea, though you still have to figure the legal implications of it...

08-17-08 23:23 #

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DoomKn1ght
Mini-Member

Posts: 90
Registered: 10-07

We can make a wad preview if they are compatible and
using freedoom as an IWAD, zdoom as base port.

I can imagine a Doomworld level/chatroom almost like in CIF3. :D

08-18-08 00:08 #

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fraggle
Super Moderator

Posts: 4355
Registered: 07-00

Gez said:
Idle thought born from this thread: a Flash port of something like PrBoom could be used to make a "Doom demo YouTube" (DoomTube?)... It would load the wad and the demo lump and play it. It wouldn't let the viewer play, though, for legal reasons. Just watch demos.

This sounds like a very neat idea; unfortunately, it's fatally flawed from a technical and legal perspective.

Firstly, even if you could get Doom to run in Flash, it would be an even bigger problem to get demos to play back correctly, because of the difficulty in maintaining demo sync and the massive amount of changes that would inevitably be required to get Doom to run in Flash. You might be able to get away with it by using a port like PrBoom-plus or Chocolate Doom to convert demos into an alternate, demo sync protected, format, but playing standard LMP files would basically be impossible.

Secondly, not letting the viewer play is not a sufficient solution to the legal problems. Think about it - if you put up a website with a viewer that plays back Doom levels, you need to put up a copy of the Doom IWAD for download. There is no way around this.

08-18-08 12:39 #

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Gez
Member

Posts: 383
Registered: 07-07

fraggle said:
Secondly, not letting the viewer play is not a sufficient solution to the legal problems. Think about it - if you put up a website with a viewer that plays back Doom levels, you need to put up a copy of the Doom IWAD for download. There is no way around this.

The iwads could be stored in a specially crypted way on the server (not a format compatible with normal exes and source ports), and the flash application would only download the level and mobj info it needs. Getting the iwads from this would too complicated to bother with it.

There are many sites that use flash players to broadcast all sort of data, like MP3 music, and the ways to obsfucate and hide the source of said data from snoopers have made great progresses. It probably would work because Doom iwads are excessively cheap now, and there are, unfortunately, way easier ways to pirate them anyway.

08-18-08 12:52 #

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MikeRS
Doomworld is so about bullshit excuses

Posts: 460
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All those ways to obsfucate and hide the data are in vain. You still have to give the client all the keys to unencrypt all data; and this is why ripping video/audio/etc data out from a website is as simple as installing and using a Firefox extension.

08-18-08 20:33 #

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DoomKn1ght
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Posts: 90
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the only way I see would be to use freedoom with pwads
or shareware Doom without pwads.

08-18-08 22:23 #

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Gez
Member

Posts: 383
Registered: 07-07

MikeRS said:
All those ways to obsfucate and hide the data are in vain. You still have to give the client all the keys to unencrypt all data; and this is why ripping video/audio/etc data out from a website is as simple as installing and using a Firefox extension.

That would be pointless because the design I suggested would not provide the full IWAD but just the infos needed for the level (so, the level itself and the mobjinfo and textures needed for it). Reconstructing the whole IWAD from that would be insanely tedious, even once this hypothetical Firefox extension is made, especially if the format has to be adapted back to the standard Doom wad format.

08-18-08 22:32 #

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MikeRS
Doomworld is so about bullshit excuses

Posts: 460
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Well, that's still not exactly legal, just stripping the IWAD on the fly (is this even possible/practical?)...

btw, said "hypothetical Firefox extension" does, in fact, exist.

08-19-08 01:34 #

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myk
patron mod of ugly ducklings and black sheep

Posts: 10410
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The only way to do it is to access the IWAD on the computer of the person running the browser. The web-app would provide the demos, the engine that plays them, and any PWADs used. Its use would be to embed demos on web pages.

08-19-08 01:39 #

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MikeRS
Doomworld is so about bullshit excuses

Posts: 460
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Is that even possible in Flash?

Maybe it would be using Java Applets, but I don't know what kind of security measure are put in place for the Java web plugin.

08-19-08 02:00 #

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fraggle
Super Moderator

Posts: 4355
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Gez said:

The iwads could be stored in a specially crypted way on the server (not a format compatible with normal exes and source ports), and the flash application would only download the level and mobj info it needs. Getting the iwads from this would too complicated to bother with it.

The fact is, in the end the flash applet has to be able to decrypt it again. No matter what for of encryption you use, it doesn't provide any real security at all. Your assumption that making it complicated to access would defeat any attackers is a very common fallacy that has been proved wrong many, many times. Security through obscurity is no security at all.

There are many sites that use flash players to broadcast all sort of data, like MP3 music, and the ways to obsfucate and hide the source of said data from snoopers have made great progresses.

You can never really make any real progress with this kind of scheme because it is fundamentally flawed. Furthermore, if companies are able to license music or other media and legally put it up for access, that's completely different from our situation, which involves putting up a copyrighted file for download that we don't have the rights to.

08-20-08 12:32 #

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Gez
Member

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Even so.

Playing a demo of each of the 32 levels in Doom2.wad, or each of the 36 levels in Doom.wad, extracting the data from the flash application every time, and then reassembling the full wad by stringing them all together, removing duplicated stuff, and completing with the shareware iwad for stuff that is still missing from this (like the title screen and help screen) would be a bother. A real bother. It would even be a bother if the flash application directly let you save that data with a dialog box.

Furthermore, I already said this doesn't need to be in the same format as the iwads used by Doom.exe and source ports. If the format is changed, it adds an extra step of reverse engineering and converting. I'm not even talking about encrypting, here. Run doom2.wad through zwadconv and try playing it in doom2.exe; it won't work.

People who'd want to pirate the iwads wouldn't use this, it would be far too complicated.

08-20-08 12:51 #

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iceman57
Junior Member

Posts: 183
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... And so easy to get them simply by Googling a bit than to waste hours to rebuilt it.

I perfectly understood the "legal" aspect, but in my opinion, there's no real "threat" to see people pick it.

As wrote up, they simply get the WADs from Google (c) :D

Maybe the coming 15th anniversary will finally offer it in public domain as for the source code years ago...
It's not a military technology and return on investment is done since a decade, and this will offer real new opportunities and gamers on this masterpiece.

08-20-08 18:00 #

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Graf Zahl
Forum Legend

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iceman57 said:

Maybe the coming 15th anniversary will finally offer it in public domain as for the source code years ago...
It's not a military technology and return on investment is done since a decade, and this will offer real new opportunities and gamers on this masterpiece.

Dream on. ;)

Doom is still making money and any company would be stupid to do such a thing - unless it was absolutely dead commercially.

08-20-08 18:34 #

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fraggle
Super Moderator

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Gez said:
Playing a demo of each of the 32 levels in Doom2.wad, or each of the 36 levels in Doom.wad, extracting the data from the flash application every time, and then reassembling the full wad by stringing them all together, removing duplicated stuff, and completing with the shareware iwad for stuff that is still missing from this (like the title screen and help screen) would be a bother. A real bother. It would even be a bother if the flash application directly let you save that data with a dialog box.

You're obviously not a programmer. Nothing that you describe is difficult at all if you know how these things work. It would be trivial to write a program to automate the process.

People who'd want to pirate the iwads wouldn't use this, it would be far too complicated.

That isn't the point. You're still putting up copyrighted material for download without permission. The fact that easier methods exist to pirate the game doesn't make it any more legitimate.

08-20-08 18:45 #

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