barn-raising: open iwad project

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captmellow
Junior Member

Posts: 219
Registered: 09-00

I'd be interested in getting some resources pooled together into an open source iwad. I've seen a similar thing done for the open source Quake scene (making an open PAK), & it's surprising that it hasn't been done for Doom already.

There are some tremendously talented texture artists out there, and perhaps some of them wouldn't mind allowing the inclusion of their work, properly credited. I can do some work myself, but I think the community would like to pitch in on this effort, as it is IMO a very worthy cause for the community. To see some of the artists like Nightmare & Ola contribute would be tremendous, but I wonder how open they would be to the idea. I would think that the open iwad project would need to be hosted in a very neutral place in order to encourage the participation of all.

A thought comes to mind re: the pattern of the replacement textures. They should be very similar to the original texture patterns in order to maintain proper alignment. We have all seen what happens when pwad textures are used in a map that wasn't designed for them :-P

Another thought: Perhaps an open IWAD could be built upon the shareware iwad. Much of the work would already be done, which would cut down on quite a bit of the time in getting an open iwad out & into use. Then, much later, the shareware iwad stuff could be phased out/replaced by original work.

Yet another thought: perhaps someone could make some kind of utility that can easily churn out an iwad, & post it at a generic "open iwad" dl site, alongside free texture/sfx resources? A kind of "roll your own iwad" site.

06-26-01 01:59 #

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Fanatic
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06-26-01 02:23

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boris
meow

Posts: 3838
Registered: 05-00

Cool idea. If enough people contributed maybe everthing (sounds, sprites, graphics...) could be replaced. This would result in a totally free Doom! Suggested name: Freedoom :P

06-26-01 02:38 #

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stphrz
I use a blowtorch to make crème brûlée

Posts: 997
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What about music, sounds, graphics, sprites, levels, etc?

Well by defintion an iwad would have to have all those things wouldn't it? I think it's a good idea. Make an iwad with totally new resources, everything changed :) A huge undertaking though. It would be like making a completely new game almost.

06-26-01 02:40 #

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captmellow
Junior Member

Posts: 219
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Marc, you could do the tunes w/ one arm tied behind your back, while you're eating your lunch. ;-) Or you could contribute the tunes you've done for other projects (donno about the various issues this entails, though).

Yes, this would be a huge task, which is why I was thinking of initially building it upon the shareware iwad, & only replacing the registered material--this way there would be something useful to the public in a shorter amount of time. Then, a later phase would involve replacing the shareware materials.

06-26-01 03:12 #

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DeePTeam
Member

Posts: 127
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If you use the shareware IWAD as a base, it's basically all been done. Just a matter of picking up various parts and pieces. Probably a week's worth of work - getting permission to use what you find will take longer:)

06-26-01 03:15 #

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captmellow
Junior Member

Posts: 219
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LOL we could even use resources from other shareware wads (raven stuff comes to mind) to fill in the gaps. Everything from freely distributed demo wads, all rolled together.

But having some of the newer stuff would be nice. It would be great to have a showcase of the talent I have seen here in the community, all rolled into a new iwad. New maps, new textures, new tunes, new sfx. What a great representation of the work of the community, eh? I would actually love to see lots of people doing iwads, much like the ports. 31 flavors of iwads.

06-26-01 03:40 #

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cph
Junior Member

Posts: 208
Registered: 05-00

I'd be interested in getting some resources pooled together into an open source iwad.

I've been hoping something like this might form for some time.

Perhaps an open IWAD could be built upon the shareware iwad. Much of the work would already be done, which would cut down on quite a bit of the time in getting an open iwad out & into use. Then, much later, the shareware iwad stuff could be phased out/replaced by original work.

There are two possible objectives for a free IWAD project, and I'm not clear which you're headed for (perhaps both, but the answer to your question depends on which of the two is the main priority):

- a truly free IWAD. This is the one that most interests me, as (for example) I could probably persuade some Linux distros to include Doom as a standard game if there was a free IWAD they could distribute with it. This would be a great way to expand Doom's audience. I've considered trying this myself, e.g. by patching PrBoom so it can run using fewer IWAD resources to save work.

- a free WAD which enables people to play PWADs without buying Doom(2). For this it would be legit to just do an "extension" wad to the shareware one that filled in missing textures & sprites, say; OTOH that's extremely hard to do without losing the character of the originals.

They aren't mutually exclusive but they are different aims.

Anyway, if a project forms doing either of these, you have my support (FWIW - I'm no artist :)

06-29-01 23:17 #

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Enjay
ASK ME ABOUT FOOTBALL / STEAM / DEAD CELEBRITIES / THE BLAIR WITCH PROJECT

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cph makes a good point. If you wanted to make an IWAD that allows you to run any 3rd party PWAD, then the texture names and so on would have to be the same as those in Doom(2). That does not mean you would have to limit the texture names to that of the original doom(2) ones, rather just make sure you include them all in your texture set.

Whilst you were at it, you would be as well to include all the doom and doom2 texture names so that it would be easy to run a doom1 or a doom2 level using the new IWAD. The specifics of doing that would obviously vary from port to port.

This is something I have done for my own private project. It has about 3100 textures, which includes all the doom1 and doom2 ones. I find it very useful.

If this was being taken on board, the textures (and probably patches too) would have to have the same dimensions as the originals otherwise various tricks may not work in add on levels. It would probably also be important to try and get the "feel" of the textures close to the originals too, otherwise 3rd party WADS may look odd, with the wad theme etc being ruined.

OTOH, if no attempt was being made to ensure compatibility with other wads, the project would probably turn out more like a freware Evilution or Plutonia, that people could then build add on levels for. Not a bad aim in itself, but would not necessarily allow the WAD to be used as a resource for playing as many 3rd party WADs as possible.

06-30-01 13:58 #

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captmellow
Junior Member

Posts: 219
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cph makes a good point. If you wanted to make an IWAD that allows you to run any 3rd party PWAD, then the texture names and so on would have to be the same as those in Doom(2). That does not mean you would have to limit the texture names to that of the original doom(2) ones, rather just make sure you include them all in your texture set.

Whilst you were at it, you would be as well to include all the doom and doom2 texture names so that it would be easy to run a doom1 or a doom2 level using the new IWAD. The specifics of doing that would obviously vary from port to port.

This is what I am interested in--something that allows one to run any doom port w/out buying the now hard-to-find retail Doom.

This is something I have done for my own private project. It has about 3100 textures, which includes all the doom1 and doom2 ones. I find it very useful.

If this was being taken on board, the textures (and probably patches too) would have to have the same dimensions as the originals otherwise various tricks may not work in add on levels. It would probably also be important to try and get the "feel" of the textures close to the originals too, otherwise 3rd party WADS may look odd, with the wad theme etc being ruined.

Yes, that is a concern I was referring to about textures tiling properly in the original levels.

06-30-01 16:28 #

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fraggle
Super Moderator

Posts: 6573
Registered: 07-00

This is an awesome idea and as captmellow pointed out would be a great showcase of talent of the doom community. It would be nice if we could totally remake the iwad (ie. no textures at all, even from the shareware). Although the shareware can be redistributed freely i expect there are still some restrictions on what you can do with it (modified levels based on the originals?). As well as redoing all the textures and sprites, what about the levels as well? We could remake the original 3/4 episodes or doom 2, with different levels but the same story line.

I think it goes without saying that the few of us remaining doomers work on our own seperate projects. It would be nice if we could all rally together to do this (it is going to be a large project and require a lot of effort).

I would really like to see this happen.

07-01-01 16:51 #

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Ralphis`
Rape Survivor

Posts: 1214
Registered: 06-01

Count me in. Not for textures though...hrm

07-01-01 18:38 #

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Lüt
YA-HA

Posts: 12323
Registered: 05-00

We could remake the original 3/4 episodes or doom 2, with different levels but the same story line.

Hm, I have those 3 episodes for Doom1 that I never finished. I was gonna release them as public domain for people to steal and re-edit and add ZDoom/EDGE features, etc. but I guess they could go to this. Of course I know better than to make commitments I probably can't keep but it could be a possibility.

07-01-01 19:35 #

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skadoomer
Member

Posts: 554
Registered: 01-01

i'm into clay and sculpure animation. I might be ablie to recreate some of the doom baddies and animate them accordingly. Or if you wantr to save time, use the md2 files that edmundo made and take screenshots of them. That's saving time and effort and something i'd be willing to contribute.

07-02-01 06:29 #

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Jon
Freedoom Bloke

Posts: 1334
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I'd be interested in helping out in such a project, however if it was to be a freely distributable IWAD I'd want it to be utterly legitimate. That would mean, no work derived from existing sources, and no conflicting licenses on different people's work. for example we could not include various textures unless the author's allowed their work to be included in such a freely distributable way.

Incidentally, what are people's views on work derived from such a free iwad?

07-02-01 12:13 #

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mmnpsrsoskl
Spasmolytic

Posts: 1788
Registered: 06-01

If you would need any help with something, I would be glad to help on this project, cause it would be excellent to see such a kick ass idea get turned into reality.

07-02-01 12:32 #

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fraggle
Super Moderator

Posts: 6573
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Bad news, i'm afraid.

I emailed John Carmack last night asking about the legality of making an iwad including doom enemies, weapons etc. (but using remade graphics). Unfortunately if this freedoom project is going to happen it would have to be totally new: that is, new characters entirely. We can make our own free game but it cant have imps, bfgs, etc. in it.

In short, if we make a game like this it is going to look very different to the Doom we know and love.

07-02-01 13:07 #

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Lüt
YA-HA

Posts: 12323
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We wouldn't be allowed to include the shareware elements in it? That doesn't make too much sense.

07-02-01 14:23 #

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fraggle
Super Moderator

Posts: 6573
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Not really. the shareware wad may be freely redistributable but its still very much ids property. Just because you can download the shareware wad for free, doesnt mean you can make levels based on the levels in there or use the textures in it. I certainly never expected to be able to use the shareware resources in such a way.

07-02-01 14:59 #

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boris
meow

Posts: 3838
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Does it mean we're not allowed to *call* the enemys/weapons as they are called in Doom, or does it mean that we're not allowed to make them look and act similar to the original?

07-02-01 16:25 #

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DeePTeam
Member

Posts: 127
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Does it mean we're not allowed to *call* the enemys/weapons as they are called in Doom, or does it mean that we're not allowed to make them look and act similar to the original?

It's real simple - you can't use ANY of the original "contents" of the lumps, but you CAN use the same names.

07-02-01 16:43 #

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fraggle
Super Moderator

Posts: 6573
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No, the point I was making is that we cannot have any of the doom characters. We can make our iwad but it cant have imps, cyberdemons, bfgs etc. because these are owned by id. Anybody remember what happened to the Generations Quake TC?

Here is the reply I got from carmack:

http://fraggle.despayre.ath.cx/carmack_reply.txt

07-02-01 19:03 #

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geekmarine
Senior Member

Posts: 1102
Registered: 05-00

Even if we can't make it like the original Doom, I think we should still do it. Maybe we could make it as close to the original as possible without violating John Carmack's wishes. For example, make a monster similar to an Imp, but not exactly, enough different that it can't be considered an Imp, but is easily recognizable as the Imp replacement. Stuff like that. Of course, we'll also have to create a new storyline, but seeing as how Doom's was so simple, that should be pretty easy. Sorry if that sounds like I'm pointing out the obvious, but I was just trying to be helpful. I think this would be an awesome idea, and I hope it works out OK. BTW, that link for John Carmack's reply doesn't work. Also, I have a concern: What about the MD2 models available on the Internet? I've been thinking, and I realized that it would be possible to load them up in our game and have all the Doom 2 monsters in a free version of Doom. What about the legalities of this (I wonder about the legalities of the MD2 models in the first place, but this is an even bigger concern)? Anyays, I think this project is going to be the best thing to happen to Doom since the source code was released, and possibly even better. Now I think we should start working on organizing a project team and start planning out how exactly how this project will be different than the original Doom. I wish I could help out, but I can barely even map. Good luck to whoever takes this project on.

07-02-01 20:00 #

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boris
meow

Posts: 3838
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To use the existing MD2s you still need a Doom IWAD. If you could use them without a Doom IWAD they would probably be illegal.
If it really comes to the creation of a new IWAD I think it should be as low-level as possible (like levels should be Boom compatible), so that it works many source ports.

07-03-01 00:48 #

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captmellow
Junior Member

Posts: 219
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Fraggle, I appreciate you inquiring this of Carmack. So, we will need new everything. Just as well--I cringe when I see TC's that use ripped gfx. Please disregard my reprehensible post re: pulling stuff from different shareware (id, raven) iwads.

Music: I am fairly certain that Fanatic wouldn't mind contributing music, & if he does help then we are well taken care of in that dept.

Monster Sprites: I have obtained permission from Iikka Keranen to use his monster sprites in his POVDoom pwad, & have already merged them into a doom2.wad. He did an amazing amount of work in modelling the Doom1 monsters & rendering them in POV. They are nothing like the original Doom monsters, so this may be a good step forward. Admittedly, they are rather whimsical & even goofy-looking, but they are very well-done & fun. SkaDoomer, how about doing some original replacements for Doom2 monsters like the chaingunner or mancubus?

Other GFX: This will be a lot of fun coming up with new weapon, ammo, projectile, & puff gfx.

Textures: I would like to see the likes of Ola &/or Nick contributing some stuff. The Darkening2 textures would be great, wouldn't you think? In fact, having the maps from the Darkening2 would be pretty cool. I imagine Afterglow would have some good input in this dept.

Maps: Lüt, those maps you mentioned would be great. We would have to re-texture them, though. Wouldn't it be interesting to include some dm maps as well? Perhaps have less than 32 sp maps, & the balance of dm? Just a thought, given the post-Quake trend of including dm maps in games.

SFX: Maybe I can see what I can find. In my tracking endeavors, I do run across quite a few samples sites. I'm sure Fanatic knows of some good places to look as well.

No, the point I was making is that we cannot have any of the doom characters. We can make our iwad but it cant have imps, cyberdemons, bfgs etc. because these are owned by id. Anybody remember what happened to the Generations Quake TC?

Here is the reply I got from carmack:

http://fraggle.despayre.ath.cx/carmack_reply.txt

07-03-01 06:09 #

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Jon
Freedoom Bloke

Posts: 1334
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You wouldn't have to change names, because the names are not in the .wad but in the actual game codebase which has already been GPLed. However, the likenesses are something ID can protect.

Additional: I think the first step would be to come up with a license that we could agree to before any actual content is contributed, or the project would not get very far for internal bickering. It would also be a good idea to determine whether any license we came up with could be distributed with linux sources (e.g. if it was suitable for debian)

07-03-01 18:47 #

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Jayextee
Darth Jrrr

Posts: 321
Registered: 10-00

This is an amazing idea, actually. I truly would like the community to actually become one, in a very real sense.

But the problem is the issues of copyrighted property.

Basically, everything you see in Doom, whether it be present in the IWAD or not, will be copyrighted. I'm not talking about the code, which is GPL, but intellectual properties such as themes, level names, plot, monsters, weapons.

We could pay homage to them, but not recreate them. Not without some kind of licensing, as if some Doomer will actually pay for it :p.

Basically, what this would entail, would be a group of people to firstly 'design' (In the sense of storyboarding, planning, and brainstorming) a theme for the IWAD. The there'd be concept sketches, followed by a whole mass of textures, sprites, music, sound effects, etc.

And then, there's the issue if they're too 'close'.

I know that there are many TC's and mods that may have done similar, but they all require the original IWAD. If we were to provide a cheap (read: free) alternative to the Doom/Doom2 IWAD, then this would be borderline piracy, technically. It's about the theft of ideas - a grey area, but it can still get you sued.

Basically, we'd have to agree on some completely different theme, etc. I'd be willing to join an initial 'designer's commitee', and probably map for the finished IWAD (check here to see examples of what I can do, map-wise.)

So, in theory this is truly a groundbreaking idea, a landmark for the community. But in practice, it will be a tough goal. We need people willing to participate.

I'm willing.

07-03-01 20:10 #

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Lüt
YA-HA

Posts: 12323
Registered: 05-00

Regarding the maps, I'm surprised this issue hasn't come up yet: are we doing this IWAD for Doom or Doom2? Or both? I'm not sure about "donating" my episodes until I see some new textures (I designed mine specifically with Doom1's textures in mind) however I do have some extra maps that I don't care what happens to them. I could create a few new ones too. I haven't publicly released anything yet but I am capable and I can show you some in-progress maps if you need to see that I can make maps. I'm very much for this; I figured when I finished what I had going, nothing would get me to do more but now I'm inspired again. However I'd like to see the texture resources you can pull together before I say how many I can contribute. And whether they'll be in Doom or Doom2 format.

07-03-01 20:19 #

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NiGHTMARE
Forum Legend

Posts: 4972
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captmellow:

I think the point is to make something that existing .wads will work with. Sure the Darkening E2 textures look great, but they wouldn't really work in already made levels, would they?

ID can't really stop us from recreating the Doom textures from scratch. They hardly have intellectual copyrights on brick and concrete walls, metal support beams, fleshy surfaces, etc.

07-03-01 20:21 #