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MasterofJKD
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I've noticed some mappers know how to put an archvile in a map really well...while others have no idea how to use them. What are some general guidelines on where to put the archvile so its challenging but not too unfair to the player?

Old Post 10-31-12 02:42 #
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BloodyAcid
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Slaughtermaps almost always spawn many archviles in dead hordes. I prefer to sprinkle archviles in to guard maybe a new weapon or a key, and generally like to use them where cover isn't always conveniently there (L-shaped corridor, for example). I don't like sticking them in tall cages/fences that snipe you with their flames as you're forced to strafe from wall to wall.

Old Post 10-31-12 02:45 #
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Olympus
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Some common uses are to teleport them into places the player has already been to resurrect the monsters that have already been killed. I find this very evil and annoying, but when used so it doesnt get boring, its a good trap. In general i dont mind archviles as long as theres cover such as a pillar and a decent weapon, such as the super shotgun.

Old Post 10-31-12 02:46 #
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MasterofJKD
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I just played a map just now..and basically you walk in, the door closes behind you (where you cant activate it on this side) a horde of imps open to your right and an archvile is right behind you...and no cover whatsoever, up to this point I already faced two archviles on the same map that were pretty tame situations. I feel like some players just want you to die and then reload a recent save and do it over. I feel like if the player can react quickly enough he should be able to live without knowing the trap ahead of time.

Old Post 10-31-12 02:55 #
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Obsidian
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I love using Arch-Viles myself. They're like the epitome of sadism.

Old Post 10-31-12 03:22 #
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Memfis
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I think the AV trap in Icarus map17 was very clever and fun. You get attacked from all sides so you can't just hide in some corner and kill everyone from there, you have to move constantly. Go check it out.

edit: just played that map by myself and the AV battle actually can be handled very safely. I guess I remember it being more dynamic because I made some speedruns on that map (and in speedruns you have to play aggressively which results in harder fights).

Last edited by Memfis on 10-31-12 at 14:42

Old Post 10-31-12 13:55 #
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bcwood16
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Some good points here :)

I guess as long as they are not over used and not used in such as way you have to know about it to plan ahead...or die, I dont mind them.

However, I do find them one of the scarier monsters, just because you know they are a pain.

My favourite thing about them is hearing them.....knowing they are somewere near, but when you actually face them is never certain :) I think their sounds are really creepy.

Old Post 10-31-12 15:18 #
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MasterofJKD
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Whenever I encounter them in a map there's always a level of uncertainty, since they do so much damage per hit, I always wonder...am I gonna make it out of this alive? They are indeed an awesome monster one of my favorites besides the Mancubus. And don't forget about that Plutonia level were your in a maze...awesome moment.

Old Post 10-31-12 16:11 #
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Jimi
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I usually put some of those marbfaces together with them. So they give player a small hint about the arch-viles might be in the area. Recently I've also put as many marbfaces as there are arch-viles. Of course there can be some non artloving arch-viles too...

I think I used to use too much of them years ago. Maybe more than 4 at the same time is a bit overkill. Maybe there could be more in some place with lots of pillars.

If their attack is edited into something less powerful, then they could be spammed more, and have their primary role as a healer.

Old Post 10-31-12 17:05 #
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ellmo
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Archvile is the only monster in Doom that can do more than one thing and is dangerous doing either. Other monsters simply attack you (duuuuh) and have a mostly predictable and easy-to-avoid pattern. Archvile never misses and he's damn fast too!

Therefore I think it all comes down wether you want the archvile to attack the player or put him out of sight, so he can raise a small army in an, area the player already visited and doesn't expect it. Not to mention it often forces the player to waste ammo.

I would normally place Archvile in the latter manner, I find it much more interesting.
Btw: using it in a completely open space with no obstacles to block LoS it's a dick move and I would never count it as design ;)

Last edited by ellmo on 10-31-12 at 21:34

Old Post 10-31-12 21:27 #
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ComicMischief
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Best places for Archviles are those where the player has to get creative with their cover -- and there's no obvious hiding places.

I've recently stuck one in a map with a 32 unit-wide lighting structure as the only obvious thing to hide behind; and outside of secrets, the best weapon acquired is the regular shotgun. Wouldn't say it's an amazing Archvile encounter, but it's up my alley. ;)

Old Post 10-31-12 21:48 #
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darkreaver
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The archvile is my favorite monster by far, though I do have a bad habit of over using them hehe. Ive gotten better to hold back now though.

There are several ways to use them, and spawning them onto piles of corpses is a classic ;) I sometimes use them as "turrets" too. Placing them on high pillars or in cages to either make it hazardous to move in certain areas or to make it so that the player has to rush into certain areas. And sometimes for no particular reason at all ;p

Old Post 10-31-12 22:20 #
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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As a general rule, I find archviles are not that effective on their own. But have them appear with a few buddies and things can get really interesting. I like to spawn them with some weak monsters and usually a couple of tougher monsters.

For example, an archvile fight I just finished, you hit a switch and walls lower. Directly in front of you is an archvile flanked by 2 barons. On either side appears a mancubus along with a pile of imps and former humans. It made a really good fight. There are 6 pillars in the room for cover too.


darkreaver said:
I sometimes use them as "turrets" too. Placing them on high pillars or in cages to either make it hazardous to move in certain areas or to make it so that the player has to rush into certain areas.


Y'know, I have never used an archvile as a turret. I have seen it done often enough, but never actually used it myself.

*makes mental note.*



MasterofJKD said:
I feel like if the player can react quickly enough he should be able to live without knowing the trap ahead of time.


Damn straight.

Last edited by KiiiYiiiKiiiA on 11-01-12 at 06:05

Old Post 11-01-12 05:58 #
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MasterofJKD
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Jimi said:

If their attack is edited into something less powerful, then they could be spammed more, and have their primary role as a healer.



Wish they had a separate archvile variant...maybe with a slight coloration difference on realm667. With a weaker attack, or just as a healer. I could really use that. Just wish I knew how to make custom monsters myself.

Old Post 11-01-12 06:54 #
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Baker
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MasterofJKD said:


Wish they had a separate archvile variant...maybe with a slight coloration difference on realm667. With a weaker attack, or just as a healer. I could really use that. Just wish I knew how to make custom monsters myself.



Actually, wouldn't it be better to have the healing-only archvile be visually identical? Imagine how intense it would be to have a group of baddies, with one attack archvile, and 2 identical looking healers running around in a room. That would make for an awesome fight.

Old Post 11-06-12 02:50 #
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Cacowad
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MasterofJKD said:


Wish they had a separate archvile variant...maybe with a slight coloration difference on realm667. With a weaker attack, or just as a healer. I could really use that. Just wish I knew how to make custom monsters myself.



making it in decorate is really simple...

code:
ACTOR VileHealer : Archvile { +AVOIDMELEE -QUICKTORETALIATE States { Missile: Goto See } }


this Arch-vile will go around resurrecting dead monsters on his way while it will flee if too close to the player, also it will never attack (however you can change this behaviour pretty easily).

in doom-in-hexen format or in UDMF you can spawn it wherever you want using that command in the script editor: http://zdoom.org/wiki/SpawnSpot

if you don't know how to use acs, there are some guides: http://zdoom.org/wiki/ACS

hope it helped.

Old Post 11-06-12 22:43 #
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Blue Shadow
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Replacing "Goto See" there with "Stop" will remove that state all together like it never existed.

There is also an alternative, which is modifying the monster's See state:

code:
See: VILE AABBCCDDEEFF 2 A_Chase(0, 0, CHF_RESURRECT) Loop

With that, the monster will walk around resurrecting the dead, as usual, while not executing its flame attack (will not jump to the Missile or Melee states).

Old Post 11-06-12 23:16 #
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Belial
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IIRC Gyrotechnics showcases all the uses an archie could have: repopulating, sniping from above, supporting a group of other monsters.

Old Post 11-07-12 08:11 #
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dobu gabu maru
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The archvile is perhaps the most versatile monster in the doom bestiary, which is part of the reason why he's my favorite baddie. While other monsters serve around 2-3 primary roles, he can serve around 4-6, making him perhaps the most threatening enemy there is. So using him well really depends on what kind of roles you want him to serve... and note that he can serve multiple roles as well. Others have already mentioned using him as a surprise baddie, a sniper and graveyard healer, but he can serve as a mix of these, as well as a panic-starter (warping him in then immediately having him warp away is the best way to freak out a player, putting them on edge), a fortifier (putting three AVs in one corner of the map on a ledge will keep the player away from there in a firefight), an ammo waster (letting him ressurect tougher monsters), and a monster who provides constant pressure (putting him in back of a bunch of demons will force the player to look for cover, letting the pinkies advance on his location so he can't merely outstrafe them).

Plus he's damn fast and durable, so nothing outside of a BFG will make the player feel safe in dealing with one. Because of that, he's a high priority monster (along with the Pain Elemental), forcing the player to act more recklessly when finding one, which you can always use to your advantage (for instance, an AV resurrecting revenants on the ground will distract the player from chaingunners on ledges). Remembering that the player will almost instinctively gun for the AV is one of the best aces up your sleeve you can have as a mapper.

More importantly than using them right however is not to use them wrong. Four AVs are usually overkill, while I find one or two the perfect amount (depending on what you're trying to do/how much cover there is, larger battles can handle three). Like the Pain Elemental they take a lot of ammo to eat through, and using one improperly to resurrect a host of barons is extremely annoying and can break the player's spirit. Also remember that since they need line of sight, so you should always provide a player with cover they can knowingly run to, as forcing the player to take a blast upon meeting one is a pretty egregious error (it's up there with chaingunners in a tower on the other side of the map and specters in pitch black rooms). It's a tough balancing act, but with more use (and useful feedback), you'll probably get a good feel for them soon enough.

Old Post 11-10-12 07:35 #
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Obsidian
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^That^ pretty much covers it. There are a few more things though:

-A concealed Archie that reanimates monsters. A good example is Epic 2 MAP32: a Chaingunner and a Revenant in seperate towers with Arch-Viles concealed in the base of the tower. Looks dead impressive.

-Ghost monsters. >:-D Crushed monster+Archie+vanilla=Nightmare! I believe that trick is used in Plutonia 2 MAP32.

Old Post 11-10-12 08:02 #
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Enjay
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Personally, I really dislike the Archvile these days. Perhaps it was OK in Doom2 and maps from around that era but these days the archvile is massively over used and this over-use has really put me off them.

The archvile is supposed to be rare. It seems, however, that the hellspawn conservationists have done a fantastic job of bringing them back from the brink of extinction and now their numbers have reached pest levels.

It seems I missed a memo somewhere that said "if you are making a map that has more than 30 enemies in it, you must include an archvile". What's more, I would say that on most occasions they are badly used and just an annoyance.

I'll be honest, if I'm playing a map and I hear that archvile wakeup sound and laugh, my heart sinks and the map is already going down in my estimation. I start reaching for the key that I have bound to "MDK" in ZDoom so that when I see the archie, I can kill him in one cheating shot. Of course, by doing that, I have basically ruined the balance of the map (if it had any) but the presence of the archie has already spoiled my enjoyment and, from that point on, I'm likely to cheat to get god mode or more ammo (or both), go on a quick run around what is left of the map just to see what is there and then quit shortly afterwards.

Yup, that's what the careless use of the archie, common in many maps, does for me: spoils the map entirely, makes me more likely to cheat and then to quit early.

I have seen the archvile used well, of course I have, and it's a real bonus to come across a map where that happens. However, I'd say that 9 times out of 10, or even more often, that simply isn't the case.

Old Post 11-10-12 09:58 #
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Catoptromancy
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Cover, fire power or infighting. Archies are awesome at creating a strategic approach.

Wide open space, give certain firepower to take out archie quick. Or monsters behind it to create distraction. Force player to wait for archie to attack other monster so firepower isnt redirected. Carefully strafe the pack of monsters to ensure other monsters hit archvile before it can fully attack.

I like archies on -fast the best. They constantly attack without moving much. By taking cover and letting it try to attack, will not allow it to move close enough to the pile of dead monsters.

Archviles themselves are quite easy. Learn where to stand and when to run. Weapon/Ammo/Map and other monster placement are what forces player to use strategy.

I find it hard to use an archvile badly. An archvile not placed very well tend to be very easy to kill. A bad setup to an archvile can be nasty though, like having a pistol only or tight area without enough ammo.

Old Post 11-20-12 03:48 #
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