Doom vs. Hexen?

I doubt anyone can beat War the normal way (without shooting at him while still in that room he starts from). You'd have to use up almost all of the Icons of the Defender just to survive even a few minutes.

OK I havent played hexen2 or heritc and people are talking about bosses form them.
Can some one post pics of war and edolon.
Every site i go to dosent have pics of them.

Morcalavin rocks you infidels, and IMO is second to none but Heresiarch. Korax was stupidly easy to kill, D'Sparil was cool but easy, and Eidolon, while the best of the three, could be defeated with continual Krater of Might/Tome of Power abuse.

Eidolon was a cool boss. A nice fake end where you thought you had him (too easily), but oh no, things were just getting hotted up. The arena he was in was, what's the word... shit. Yes thats it. Just a big square area with a few extra bits and pieces thrown in to make the fight work. I know boss battles often take place in such bland areas, but after such a rich and varied game to simply be reduced to a boss arena battle in a box. Pffft.

Oh yeah, and pretty unrelated, but if we are talking about the size of bosses, lets not forget the one at the the end of Serious Sam first encounter. Now that was a big boss (and that's the only SS related comment I'll make - suffice to say I don't know what the second encounter boss is like because I never played it).

I played through most of Serious Sam, but never got to the final boss. Wonder if I still have the save game sitting around...

And Morcalavin's stand out boss feature is that he can't be killed. It took me 10 minutes before I realised that and noticed that the forcefield around the Tomes went down when his health bar did. The only FPS games I can think of where you needed brains as well as firepower would be Quake, Half Life and Deus Ex.

Zaldron said:

...IMO is second to none but Heresiarch.

Gawd! How I hated meeting the Heresiarch. Certainly the most fearsome enemy in HeXen. (The Wendigos were a huge pain, mainly because you were in the closed space with them swarming you.) Kudos to Raven Software for the Heresiarch.

GooberMan said:

I played through most of Serious Sam, but never got to the final boss. Wonder if I still have the save game sitting around...

Well if you can be bothered wading through the endless, wave after wave after wave of spawning enemies in the tightly controled, no way to short cicuit it, just stand there and fight them off in a big square arena until the door opens for no apparent reason other than the script has finished battles before you move on to the next wave after wave.... then the final boss is worth seeing at least once simply for his size. Nothing too special about the way to defeat him, although not a simple shoot him 'til he's dead scenario. Mind you, there's probably a level skip cheat.

On the wave, after wave battles, even my 9 year old daughter watching me play saw me step into yet another wide open courtyard with a closed door at the far side and exclaimed "oh no, I know what's going to happen now, this is boring". At least she had the common sense to leave the room and go and do something more interesting. I, on the other hand, was stupid enough to stay in the arena plugging away at the bad guys 'til the door opened.

Ichor said:

I doubt anyone can beat War the normal way (without shooting at him while still in that room he starts from). You'd have to use up almost all of the Icons of the Defender just to survive even a few minutes.

I finally managed a strategy without wasting a lot of Icons when I replayed it recently, but it was still pretty exhausting. It felt just like quakeworld, where I had to keep bunny-hopping to stay ahead of the axes, saving the discs of repulsion for those faster red axes, shooting at War whenever I passed him, then continuing on my way. The axes will eventually fall to the ground if they don't hit something within a certain timeframe, so you can always stay ahead of them... having a faster character definitely helps here. You might also get another stroke of luck if War runs into a pillar and gets stuck (gotta love that and the eidolon freeze bug, which always happens.. silly Raven ;).

EDIT: You could also bind a key to use the Boots of Speed during the fight, which I also rarely use in regular play. :)

ReX said:

Gawd! How I hated meeting the Heresiarch. Certainly the most fearsome enemy in HeXen. (The Wendigos were a huge pain, mainly because you were in the closed space with them swarming you.) Kudos to Raven Software for the Heresiarch.

Right on... one of the best FPS bosses ever, IMO.

ReX said:

Gawd! How I hated meeting the Heresiarch. Certainly the most fearsome enemy in HeXen. (The Wendigos were a huge pain, mainly because you were in the closed space with them swarming you.) Kudos to Raven Software for the Heresiarch.

Heh. I'm playing through Hexen using the Korax mod. Playing as the Mage, the Heresiarch takes forever to kill, seeing as how all your weapons are half the strength they are in normal Hexen, and the Big H has several times its normal health. But by that time, the Ice Shards and Arc of Death don't cost anything and you should have enough Mana to keep the Defensive Spell up for a while.

Zaldron said:

Morcalavin rocks you infidels, and IMO is second to none but Heresiarch.

Come on, you gotta be shittin' me - Morcalivan has to be the most cheesy boss of all the "H-games" from Raven. I admit that it's somewhat original that he cannot be killed, and for a sorceror, he looks kinda cool. But still, after knocking him down, he gets up with that cheesy evil laughter.
Sure, he has some interesting attacks and all, but imho, a cool boss also needs the menace, which I don't think Morcalivan has.

And yes, it sucks that War is harder than Eidolon, but Eidolon is cooler to fight (namely because he's not half as annoying).

Oh and when I fight War, I just activate the Boots o' Speed+Force Cube, run around in circles and occasionally activating discs of repulsion which send the axes back to hurt War.

When I run out of discs (I managed to beat him without running out of discs as the Necromancer - beats me how I did that), I use the "wimp mode" - Icons of Defender.

I noticed Rift being mentioned earlier (during the rpg wars earlier). Now thats a great game. Its alright at the start but after you passed the first few levels, thats when the game really starts to get good :)

Be sure to patch it to the max though, as the straight out of the box version is quite buggy.

War is shit, there's a little piece of column near his spawning point that you can use to hide from his homing axes, and after some circlestrafing (to keep that brush between you and his projectiles), War will get stuck with some columns on the opposite side of the arena. Make a dash for it and get right behind him as close as the bounding box lets you. His axes' momentum is a bit too high for them to hit you, they'll circlestrafe you a few units away from your neck, but it's enough. From there, it's just a matter of punching/slashing/hitting/stabbing his horse's ass until he drops dead.

And dsm I never really cared about your opinion on [stuff]

From the majority of post's I would say most people seem to enjoy hexen better than doom since your talking about it soo much? And I find this weird since this is (doom world), but oh well?

Stealthy Ivan said:

From the majority of post's I would say most people seem to enjoy hexen better than doom since your talking about it soo much? And I find this weird since this is (doom world), but oh well?

This is a biased sample of people who care enough to post about Hexen. For the record, I like the technical improvements made to the engine in Hexen but, for me, Doom is streaks ahead as far as being an enjoyable, fun, playing experience. Doom, definitely the better game IMO. Of course, now the editing features of Hexen (and more) are available in Doom levels anyway, thanks to Randy Heit.

Stealthy Ivan said:

From the majority of post's I would say most people seem to enjoy hexen better than doom since your talking about it soo much? And I find this weird since this is (doom world), but oh well?

A lot of the folks here on DW aren't actually Doom fanatics, but more like Heretic/HeXen fanatics/fans. They're here because there doesn't seem to be a proper site for HeXen or Heretic and because Doomworld has everything to do with Doom and the games using the Doom engine.

Anyway what you said above is bullshit. Most of us have already said that we think Doom is greater (most of the folks who voiced their opinions on this matter and clearly marked which they preferred said Doom), however that doesn't stop us from praising HeXen and explaining why we think it's teh cool.

the_Danarchist said:

Hexen may have had better immersion than any other Doom-engine game, but other than that it's kind of weak.

Uh... Strife?

Hiya.

I like DOOM and DOOM2's "story line". Hexen kicks ass for all the neat stuff. Fog, polyobjects, breakable stuff, etc. The problem that Hexen had, was that you finish a hub, and then start a new level. You don't have a clue where the hell you are, why you are there, how you got there, or where you came from. It's like 32 levels with no real "locational or story anchor". DOOM/2 presented that via two simple methods; (1) End Episode "storyblurb", and (2) that simple little map after each level. The one that showed you "Refuling Base", then "Nukeage Facility", or whatever it is, with the red line and highlight. DOOM/2 gave me a sense of where I was at, where I had been, and where I was going. Hexen didn't do that for me. Basically, there was more story in DOOM/2 than in Hexen. Hexen was basically: You start here, kill monsters, go to another place, kill some more, repeat 30 times, fight some creature named Korax. That's about it. With DOOM/2 it was: You arive at a base, its got monsters for some reason, you kill them, you head towards another area of the Phobos base to find some answeres, fighting along the way. You start to realise that an experiment had gone terribly wrong, you start to track down the source, etc. A nice little straight forward story that you can follow along with via map's, monsters, intro/exit writing (end of episode), and an overall progression map. :)

I'd *love* to see a Hexen3 using the new DOOM3 engine....*drool*... Just as long as it had a frickin story that I could follow along, made sense, and made a difference in my strategy. :)

pming said:
Hiya.

The problem that Hexen had, was that you finish a hub, and then start a new level. You don't have a clue where the hell you are, why you are there, how you got there, or where you came from. It's like 32 levels with no real "locational or story anchor".

I know what you mean - the thing in HeXen is that when you exit a map, you enter a portal that will transport you miles away from the location you were in last. It doesn't really bother me, though I do admit that it would look better to have some sort of "anchors".

I'd *love* to see a Hexen3 using the new DOOM3 engine....*drool*... Just as long as it had a frickin story that I could follow along, made sense, and made a difference in my strategy. :)

Heh, did you see that thread in "Everything Else" where people discussed HeXen 3 ideas? I came up with a sketching out of ideas for a sort of warrior character for a HeXen 3 - I and a guy called BBG are working on a whole "idea sheet" for a HeXen 3 (it might end up being a Doom 3 mod of sorts - unless Raven software announces that they're gonna do a HeXen 3). So far, I'm working on ideas for player characters (we have five different player characters - a warrior of sorts, a Witch, a holy Knight of sorts, a Mage and an Amazon), enemies, story (yes, even a story! I'll post it in fan fic one day), bosses and a few other misc ideas.

Oh yeah, and the story I'm planning for it will hopefully make some sense (I plan on having in-game story progression). I can reveal now that I'm trying to somehow include the Serpent Riders in it (they're just too cool to not be used as the big bad guys - especially if you get to fight all three in the same game) and I'm trying to figure out a way to not make it lame, or at least make it less lame that they return again.

Hmm... I like Hexen, but I think the technology was wasted. It's no more advanced than Doom gameplay-wise really to me. Yeah you have some items, and you can choose which 4 weapons you want but ultimately it comes down to more key/switch hunting except you get messages telling you which door you opened and you have to hunt across levels. Which I just find annoying. Vanilla Doom/2 was built on the same switch/keyhunt principles, but I find that Doom has more atmosphere for me, and I like the weapons, enemies and sounds better.

I really liked fighting those 3 human guys though, that was pretty much the high point of the game for me.

I only ever bothered to play through much of Hexen with Korax mod - I love games where you slowly improve. The satisfaction of finally gibbing an Ettin with one punch instead of three is great. And when I got bored I modified the maps so I could get my fighter up to level 20 :D Then you can punch like a machinegun, only ten times as powerful.

ToXiCFLUFF said:

but ultimately it comes down to more key/switch hunting

But that's the principle of most FPS games, isn't it? The main difference being that with recent games, instead of simply searching for a key or a switch you have to fulfill some objective. Ultimately they both represent completing some objective before being allowed to proceed in the game.

One of the big differences between HeXen and DooM in terms of achieving objectives is that HeXen allowed for goals beyond the picking up of keys or the pressing of switches. (ZDooM and other ports that support scripting allow for the clever use of such capabilities to make for immersive environments and gameplay.)

I don't find representativity and "atmosphere" to be particularly immersive, they are more than anything attractive. They are pretty much the packaging of the game, or like an ad is to a product. They have the power to make you pay attention to the game in the first place, but not the power to hold it in the long run. Where is the "atmosphere" in a tennis field, and to what degree is chess representative of anything?

As for more open-ended design possibilities; they pay back mostly as "atmosphere" and representativity, or in some cases, certain more or less intelligently designed situations that may amuse the player or make him or her think up a solution to a problem. They will also tend to make the player not know what to expect. And knowing, more or less, what to expect is the basis for the acquisition of skill.

"One of the big differences between HeXen and DooM in terms of achieving objectives is that HeXen allowed for goals beyond the picking up of keys or the pressing of switches."

It allowed it, but it never really explored the capability. I don't doubt for a second that the Hexen variant of the Doom engine is more flexible than the original, but I was talking mainly about the game itself.

And yeah, all games involve completing objectives to progress, but that's only the same in title. It boils down to the good old reduction argument - you can simplify almost anything, you can say that love is just a chemical process but doing this doesn't fully describe the subject. I wouldn't say that a game like Deus Ex or System Shock 2 feels like an elaborate keyhunt.

Oh yeah, the other thing I love about Hexen is that you can get turned into a pig. That rules. I loved the secret on one map where you had to get yourself swined to crawl into a piglet-sized passageway.

Myk: I don't think tennis fields generally have much atmosphere either. However, I think atmosphere is deadly essential in a game. It influences the way you feel as you play it. E.g. Doom3 alpha (am I allowed to talk about this?): Take away all the ambient sounds and shadows and it wouldn't be scary - all of the game design elements in that awesome (admittedly unfinished) product push towards a scary, tense atmosphere. I play it, and I feel nervous. On the other hand, I play... Carmageddon for instance, and I feel quite relaxed - it's got bright colours and a generally frivolous look to it so I don't feel as on edge.

Rex: Just out of interest, what would you say is the most gameplay-modifying map/mod for Doom/2 (any port, but without being a complete puzzle game or something)?

ToXiCFLUFF said:

It allowed it, but it never really explored the capability.

Heh. That's why I chose my words carefully and said "allowed for". (There were some standard variants of the old key/switch routine, such as the finding and placing of the fire mask.)

Rex: Just out of interest, what would you say is the most gameplay-modifying map/mod for Doom/2 (any port, but without being a complete puzzle game or something)?

Difficult to say, but Goober Man's DooM Arcade had some entirely new elements, and there was a side-scroller that changed the visual aspect considerably. LWM's maps are also generally quite innovative.

Almost every map/mod that I can think of is simply a variant on the standard DooM theme of kill-everything-in-sight and get the hell out of there. Many maps/mods made for ZDooM (and script-capable source ports) strive to introduce new elements of gameplay. But because they are all for DooM, they invariably incorporate the standard gameplay elements.

ReX said:

Almost every map/mod that I can think of is simply a variant on the standard DooM theme of kill-everything-in-sight and get the hell out of there.

True but that is what makes doom fun. Its been like that for 9 years now so why change a good thing.

Demons Hand said:

True but that is what makes doom fun. Its been like that for 9 years now so why change a good thing.

I agree with you. I wasn't complaining about every map/mod being a variant on the kill-everything-and-and-get-out theme. Just responding to ToXiCFLUFF's question regarding which map/mod I thought was most significntly different from this theme.

Cool, I'll check those out, thanks ReX.

ReX said:

Goober Man's DooM Arcade had some entirely new elements

The cool thing is that the new elements were about 10-20 lines of script :) Proof that you don't need to make a big elaborate mod to alter the gameplay of Doom.

Hey I enjoyed Doom Arcade, that was cool. Nice idea.... I'm gonna have to take a look at how you do that in ACS. Had to play it on my PII350 though because Zdoom/GL crashes my newer pc instantly :(
The camera intro at the start was really good, I've been spending quite a lot of time trying to do some movement like that with my legacy project. It's proving to be very difficult... I'm guessing that Zdoom has some built in functions for cameras rather than just having setcamera() and movecamera() in legacy, which means you have to use maths to get all the movement right.

You did that Gateway wad as well didn't you?

Yeah, the Gateway wad was me.

And ZDoom doesn't have specific camera functions. That camera effect was a camera moving along a path specified by interpolation points (quite easy to set up, a bit of an explanation is inside the zip file that the Gateway wad came inside). The way it's implemented in ZDoom means that anything can follow those interpolation points, including skybox viewers (which is how the docking sequence was done).

Yeah, gateway is one cool wad. See, legacy has interpolation points but I have to use math to get it to accelerate (easy), track an object (easy), move in curves (not easy at all).

The way it's implemented in ZDoom means that anything can follow those interpolation points, including skybox viewers (which is how the docking sequence was done).

Zdoom really does have some cool stuff, it's an awesome port. I've now got it working on my newer computer by changing video drivers, which I'm very pleased about.