Spider Mastermind
Register | User Profile | Member List | F.A.Q | Privacy Policy | New Blog | Search Forums | Forums Home
Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Classic Doom > Doom General > anyone here use MSN?
Pages (4): « 1 2 [3] 4 »  
Author
All times are GMT. The time now is 14:02. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
Lüt
Administrator


Posts: 9170
Registered: 05-00


Told ya :)

Old Post 08-19-01 22:34 #
Lüt is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Phoenix
Member


Posts: 345
Registered: 02-01



Told ya :)

*sigh*
risking to piss-off the admin, I guess you like working the hard way, so keep Notepad. It's a wonderfull program. As long as you close all tags, keep links in place and don't have to deal with hundreds of changing images per day, and know the php syntax, don't have to move pages, have full control of the server, etc.

Old Post 08-19-01 22:46 #
Phoenix is offline Profile || Blog || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
læmænt
BAND


Posts: 3801
Registered: 11-00



risking to piss-off the admin, I guess you like working the hard way, so keep Notepad. It's a wonderfull program. As long as you close all tags, keep links in place and don't have to deal with hundreds of changing images per day, and know the php syntax, don't have to move pages, have full control of the server, etc.


You mean to say that when you make webpages, you constantly forget to close tags, to watch the links, you are not in control of the server and don't know the php syntax?

Old Post 08-19-01 22:49 #
læmænt is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Phoenix
Member


Posts: 345
Registered: 02-01


You mean to say that when you make webpages, you constantly forget to close tags, to watch the links, you are not in control of the server and don't know the php syntax?[/quote]
Yep, I ain't no Ling :D

Old Post 08-20-01 00:14 #
Phoenix is offline Profile || Blog || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
læmænt
BAND


Posts: 3801
Registered: 11-00


Still I wonder how a WYSIWYG editor can help you with PHP

Old Post 08-20-01 00:25 #
læmænt is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Linguica


Posts: 4014
Registered: 05-00



risking to piss-off the admin, I guess you like working the hard way, so keep Notepad. It's a wonderfull program. As long as you close all tags, keep links in place and don't have to deal with hundreds of changing images per day, and know the php syntax, don't have to move pages, have full control of the server, etc.
Let see here...

Close all tags: I do that all the time anyway

Keep links in place: Generally, links aren't changing locations every much

Don't have to deal with changing images: no, I don't

Know the PHP syntax: of course

Don't have to move pages: Not usually, and even if I do, I usually write pages so I only have to change one file to change them all

Full control of the server: Hah I wish

Old Post 08-20-01 01:40 #
Linguica is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
captmellow
Junior Member


Posts: 217
Registered: 09-00


I used to use WYSIWYG editors, but I am happy to say that now I use the likes of Arachnophilia, 1stpage, & PHP Coder Pro.

The WYSIWYG editors keep one from learning by insulating you from the code--& what is worse, they often shred the code by inserting tons of extraneous tags (making for larger files) & if you do a lot of changes, the mishmash of tags may become tangled to the point that you get unexpected results that the editor cannot deal with, & neither can you if you have relied heavily on such an editor rather than learning.

The 3 editors I mentioned are great because they are syntax-highlighting, meaning that they will highlight certain code elements in certain colors as you type. It can help you to detect errors when the highlighting is a different color than you expected due to unclosed tags, etc. But what I like best about them is how you can select text between tags or parts of code. The editor will separate intelligently between parts of code when you double-click, whereas in notepad you have to take pains select only the one element you need, since notepad cannot discern between parts of code, it only recognizes spaces.

If you are a notepad-only coder, I would encourage you to try out a text editor that has syntax highlighting. It really is handy.

Old Post 08-20-01 02:34 #
captmellow is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Jon
Freedoom Bloke


Posts: 1351
Registered: 09-00



...syntax highlighting...


I feel totally out of my depth with that, and with automatic indentation. I do my best work when its layed out in front of me, black fixedsys font on a white background, nothing fancy. Its been so long now that I've done it this way, I don't know if I could adjust to another method.

And to someone's comment about time taken to use WYSIWYG stuff: the truth is, you don't see what you get, visual based designing programs write sloppy code that doesn't validate and doesn't look the same on different browsers and is bloated. Its impossible to get the broadest possible range of supported browsers/resolutions/colour depths/os's without writing the code by hand.

Old Post 08-20-01 11:53 #
Jon is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Phoenix
Member


Posts: 345
Registered: 02-01




And to someone's comment about time taken to use WYSIWYG stuff: the truth is, you don't see what you get, visual based designing programs write sloppy code that doesn't validate and doesn't look the same on different browsers and is bloated. Its impossible to get the broadest possible range of supported browsers/resolutions/colour depths/os's without writing the code by hand.

Well it's your truth, and your believe. Broadest range? Impossible? All you do is "click" on the decade for which you intend to design for. Let's see oh here HTML 3.2, even goes to HTML 2.0, well no tables of course, but very nice for Lynx users.
Visual editors, the high end ones, all come with a true HTML editor to clean up the code. If you are the hacker type sure you study the code the program makes while creating the page. Does GoLive and Dreamweaver bloat the code? Not if used properly. Visual editors are just as weak in the hands of idiots as Notepad would be. WYSWIG not WYSIWIG!
Lately I use NetObject Fusion. It does "bloat" the code. 2204 bites extra. (3 hours working time saved) Oh my, what to do? Hmm the total images are 542MB will anyone be upset for the bloated code? Well as long as I do not make a link to this here forum, no one will ever know. Who reads the View Source while seeing a movie?

Old Post 08-20-01 16:27 #
Phoenix is offline Profile || Blog || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Jon
Freedoom Bloke


Posts: 1351
Registered: 09-00



WYSWIG not WYSIWIG

?


Give me the URL to a page genuinely generated using a WYSIWYG program (its shortened like that where I come from...) that hasn't got any redundant or wasted code in it and I'll give you a cookie.

and something better than a cookie for a page that is generated using a wysiwyg program and passes the w3c validation test (obviously not a page that is simplified for this purpose)

Old Post 08-20-01 18:34 #
Jon is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Phoenix
Member


Posts: 345
Registered: 02-01


You actually ask this trick question?
http://www.elan-zone.de/ click on HTML, Flash is an option only.
It may surprise you, doing a site in Notepad does not guaranty validation by W3C. As I said before Dreamweaver comes with the tools to make your document pass the validation test. The draw back is the latest feature of IE can not be incorporated. If Netscape, Opera etc. come out of the dark ages, any the validation test would be superficial; since only people in the know would know any different. The end user gives a flying f. how the code is written :D
http://www.designinsites.com/ click on Flash Model if you dare, but remember Flash sites do not let you look in the code, so you will never know if the site passes the validation test. Murharharhar. As I said trick question.

Also:
WYSIWYG = What You So Intensely Wish You'd Gotten :-)
WYSWYG = What You See Is What You Get

Old Post 08-20-01 20:53 #
Phoenix is offline Profile || Blog || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Lüt
Administrator


Posts: 9170
Registered: 05-00



Also:
WYSIWYG = What You So Intensely Wish You'd Gotten :-)
WYSWYG = What You See Is What You Get
You left out the "I" in the middle of the second one.

Old Post 08-20-01 20:59 #
Lüt is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
læmænt
BAND


Posts: 3801
Registered: 11-00



The draw back is the latest feature of IE can not be incorporated. If Netscape, Opera etc. come out of the dark ages, any the validation test would be superficial; since only people in the know would know any different


The trouble with IE is that it works only on one platform. By making a page with "Latest features of IE" you're making a Windows-only page. Even if the end user doesn't care, it's just bad programming (if you can call writing HTML code "programming").

Also, I don't see how is it good that IE often correctly processes buggy HTML. It shouldn't. At least it doesn't automatically correct spelling mistakes, yet.

Old Post 08-20-01 21:27 #
læmænt is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Phoenix
Member


Posts: 345
Registered: 02-01


Type in WYSWYG in any common search engine and see what you get
Type it with an I in it and see what you get, yep you actually do get crappy editors.
Go to http://www.acronymfinder.com/ again you get two definitions for with the I but only one without.
In summery I think, to find high class editors look for and use WYSWYG without the I. :D

Old Post 08-20-01 21:28 #
Phoenix is offline Profile || Blog || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Linguica


Posts: 4014
Registered: 05-00


No, I think most web designers realize that WYSIWYG is the proper acronym, and WYSWYG is some weird bastardization.

Old Post 08-20-01 21:46 #
Linguica is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
læmænt
BAND


Posts: 3801
Registered: 11-00


Google search:

wyswyg dreamweaver - 99 results.
wysiwyg dreamweaver - 14900 results.

Heh.

Old Post 08-21-01 01:50 #
læmænt is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Jon
Freedoom Bloke


Posts: 1351
Registered: 09-00


flash-dependant sites aren't worthy of consideration as they aren't even written in HTML, and are therefore not real web pages.


It may surprise you, doing a site in Notepad does not guaranty validation by W3C.


I can't say I'm too suprised actually, but its actually possible to write valid code by hand, and a virtually impossible task when the writing is automated.

Old Post 08-21-01 01:58 #
Jon is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Phoenix
Member


Posts: 345
Registered: 02-01



Google search:

wyswyg dreamweaver - 99 results.
wysiwyg dreamweaver - 14900 results.

Heh.

As they say "I stand corrected" ;)

Old Post 08-21-01 02:25 #
Phoenix is offline Profile || Blog || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Jon
Freedoom Bloke


Posts: 1351
Registered: 09-00


Incidentally, that url you passed me:
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=h...&doctype=Inline

neither of the pages are valid.

Old Post 08-21-01 14:58 #
Jon is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Phoenix
Member


Posts: 345
Registered: 02-01



neither of the pages are valid.

No shit!
A: I linked to the site because they work well in Flash mode! I don’t really give a shit about plain HTML

B: how many sites done in Notepad pass the fucking W3C test?

C: If you run the code through Homesite you get the same errors as if you apply to W3C. As I said numerous times, in essence is how you use the tools and not the tools.

D: I got a tiny site at Geocities. In a view days this site will pass the validation test, and I will make a link even so it is a Duke related site. All what will be used is NetObject Fusion (a second class but fast WYSIWYG) and Homesite. Yes, this site will be done without the wonders of Notepad, and hopefully makes you shut up!

Old Post 08-21-01 17:09 #
Phoenix is offline Profile || Blog || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
deadnail
i define my reality through misery


Posts: 2144
Registered: 06-00



The trouble with IE is that it works only on one platform. By making a page with "Latest features of IE" you're making a Windows-only page.
Simply untrue. IE is also available for the Mac, and both of them combined equals just about every desktop in the world web designers give a damn about.

You can't dare call Netscape a good renderer. Try doing some utterly simple tables in Notepad, clean as hell, and see how Netscape can b0rk them. I use IE because what I type is what I get, I don't get any really fucking insane errors because, unlike anything Mozilla based, IE can actually render tables correctly.


Also, I don't see how is it good that IE often correctly processes buggy HTML. It shouldn't. At least it doesn't automatically correct spelling mistakes, yet.
Most HTML WYSISYG programs write some messy shit. There are only a few that don't. Just about the worst one I've seen is the one bundled with Netscape... take a look at that HTML, how in the blue fuck could you call that decent coding?

Old Post 08-21-01 17:21 #
deadnail is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Jon
Freedoom Bloke


Posts: 1351
Registered: 09-00




neither of the pages are valid.

No shit!A: I linked to the site because they work well in Flash mode! I don’t really give a shit about plain HTML

If you don't give a shit about html, why did you supply those sites as examples of notepad-written (or hand-written) valid html pages?



B: how many sites done in Notepad pass the fucking W3C test?


Not a lot, but a damn site more than WYSIWYG tools. Mine does.



C: If you run the code through Homesite you get the same errors as if you apply to W3C.


I think we have some confusion over the use of the term 'error' here.


NetObject Fusion (a second class but fast WYSIWYG) and Homesite. Yes, this site will be done without the wonders of Notepad, and hopefully makes you shut up!



I look forward to seeing it.

Old Post 08-21-01 17:48 #
Jon is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
læmænt
BAND


Posts: 3801
Registered: 11-00




The trouble with IE is that it works only on one platform. By making a page with "Latest features of IE" you're making a Windows-only page.
Simply untrue. IE is also available for the Mac, and both of them combined equals just about every desktop in the world web designers give a damn about.


Well, obvious question here is: What about Linux? But there're also blind users, people like me who use Lynx just for the fun of it, people with crap like WebTV, people without graphic monitors... did you know you can connect to the Internet with a TI-83 graphics calculator?


You can't dare call Netscape a good renderer. Try doing some utterly simple tables in Notepad, clean as hell, and see how Netscape can b0rk them. I use IE because what I type is what I get, I don't get any really fucking insane errors because, unlike anything Mozilla based, IE can actually render tables correctly.

You're totally right here; IE is the best browser around.


Most HTML WYSISYG programs write some messy shit. There are only a few that don't. Just about the worst one I've seen is the one bundled with Netscape... take a look at that HTML, how in the blue fuck could you call that decent coding?

Still that's no reason why browsers should accept buggy code. Instead, the guys who make WYSIWYG editors should make them better. Also, the worst editor I've seen is FrontPage, which is basically bundled with IE...

Old Post 08-21-01 19:08 #
læmænt is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Lüt
Administrator


Posts: 9170
Registered: 05-00



You're totally right here; IE is the best browser around.
4.0, that is.

Old Post 08-21-01 21:22 #
Lüt is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
læmænt
BAND


Posts: 3801
Registered: 11-00


Hey... what the hell is this:

"Unix version contains software licensed from Mainsoft Corporation. Copyright (c) 1998-1999 Mainsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Mainsoft is a trademark of Mainsoft Corporation."

That's straight from IE's menu -- "Help/About Internet Explorer"

What Unix version?

Old Post 08-21-01 21:31 #
læmænt is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Ralphis`
Loser


Posts: 1214
Registered: 06-01


newer AIM versions have external lists

Old Post 08-22-01 00:10 #
Ralphis` is offline Profile || Blog || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
Jon
Freedoom Bloke


Posts: 1351
Registered: 09-00


there's a solaris IE4 beta I believe.

Old Post 08-22-01 00:54 #
Jon is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
deadnail
i define my reality through misery


Posts: 2144
Registered: 06-00



Well, obvious question here is: What about Linux? But there're also blind users, people like me who use Lynx just for the fun of it, people with crap like WebTV, people without graphic monitors... did you know you can connect to the Internet with a TI-83 graphics calculator?
You can surf the Internet with new wristwatches in Japan for Chrissakes.

People using Linux should be accustomed to being second-class citizens when it comes to software. They always get it a year or two later and due to the open source mantra it's usually riddled with bugs and unoptimized as fuck.

People without graphic monitors need to step into the 1990's... they should try this new thing called 'Windows 3'. Come to the dark side, Luke, we have Fritos©.

Blind users? Come the fuck on. I'm not translating my fucking page into Brail for a percentage of a percentage of a percentage of people who would never read my fucking website.

WebTV? Mozilla? Dreamcast? Linux? All the same... zero support.


Still that's no reason why browsers should accept buggy code. Instead, the guys who make WYSIWYG editors should make them better. Also, the worst editor I've seen is FrontPage, which is basically bundled with IE...
That depends on your definition of 'buggy' code... that's a very vague description.

Frontpage is the editor that writes, almost, the cleanest HTML I've ever seen a program produce. How in the blue fuck can you say its bundled with IE? Do you mean Frontpage Express? That's like comparing Notepad to Word.

Old Post 08-22-01 05:47 #
deadnail is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
læmænt
BAND


Posts: 3801
Registered: 11-00



People using Linux should be accustomed to being second-class citizens when it comes to software. They always get it a year or two later and due to the open source mantra it's usually riddled with bugs and unoptimized as fuck.



No comment, that's your opinion... Still that's not a good reason to make it impossible for them to see your page because it uses IE-only features.



People without graphic monitors need to step into the 1990's... they should try this new thing called 'Windows 3'. Come to the dark side, Luke, we have Fritos©.



That's a very disturbed point of view indeed.



Frontpage is the editor that writes, almost, the cleanest HTML I've ever seen a program produce. How in the blue fuck can you say its bundled with IE? Do you mean Frontpage Express? That's like comparing Notepad to Word.


Errr... No. Fronpage is terrible. I just don't know how can you say it's good.
And yes, I mean FrontPage and not FrontPage express. IE has that button, "Edit with Microsoft FrontPage".

Old Post 08-22-01 06:02 #
læmænt is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
deadnail
i define my reality through misery


Posts: 2144
Registered: 06-00



No comment, that's your opinion... Still that's not a good reason to make it impossible for them to see your page because it uses IE-only features.
Most pages designed for IE can still be seen with inferior browsers (Netscape, Konqueror) they just look ugly as hell. A really old browser with no CSS (Dreamcast, Lynx) might not be able to display it, but hell, its been long enough.


That's a very disturbed point of view indeed.
I have text monitors at work. They have a button on them for green/amber. Very very nice. I prefer looking at graphics than text, including graphical representations of text (ttf) then the original formats. If you want to look at a command prompt for the rest of your life be my guest.


Errr... No. Fronpage is terrible. I just don't know how can you say it's good.
Pages made with Frontpage still look decent in Netscape assuming you don't use any features that Netscape doesn't have. Netscape itself has been known to fuck up it's own table codes.


And yes, I mean FrontPage and not FrontPage express. IE has that button, "Edit with Microsoft FrontPage".
Mine edits with Notepad because I don't have Frontpage installed on this system. It doesn't come on the Win98SE CD and it doesn't come when you download 5.5. You got it from somewhere else.

Old Post 08-22-01 06:14 #
deadnail is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit || Quote
All times are GMT. The time now is 14:02. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
Pages (4): « 1 2 [3] 4 »  
Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Classic Doom > Doom General > anyone here use MSN?

Show Printable Version | Email this Page | Subscribe to this Thread

 

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are OFF
[IMG] code is ON
 

< Contact Us - Doomworld >

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.5
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.