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Cyclone
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Obviously, this topic can be very controversial, which is why it will be within the context of the listed episodes of doom (which exlcudes any wads not mentioned). This thread is in response to the one about the most hated monsters of doom, and this is just another question that is of interest. From any of the following episodes of doom, which is the most difficult level to beat?
Doom II
Doom
Final Doom
Ultimate Doom
Plutonia
Evilution
Other official levels
There's no doubt that this topic could have been posted earlier, and may have addressed any level ever made. These episodes don't necessarily include any joke monsters or absurd maps that are not impossible to beat, but very close to. It is without question that the most difficult level for me to beat (and this was on ultra violence) was go 2 it, level 32 of the plutonia episode. Perhaps this level may seem impossible to beat, especially on that difficulty, but after dying dozens of times, I finally beat go 2 it.
Just curious to hear what people had as an answer, doesn't have to be any one right answer. Even ultimate doom had some hard maps. My favorite map of all doom levels is the map 29 from doom II, The Living End

Last edited by Cyclone on 01-13-08 at 23:27
Old Post 01-13-08 22:57 #
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Ragnor
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Doom II: I cannot remember one level standing out above others in difficulty, but Refueling Base, Suburbs and Tenements were pretty hard for me.
Doom: Slough of Despair, since you start with not much ammo and be under attack by many monsters at once
Ultimate Doom: Perfect Hatred. Hardly any ammo, you start under attack by loads of monsters, and you'll probably start with less than 100 if you play to get max kills/secrets/items in your games.
Plutonia: The 11th level. I think it's called Hunted. I cannot beat it.
Evilution: I don't think I ever spent to many attempts on any certain levels, this one seems pretty balanced when I think about it.
Old Post 01-14-08 00:44 #
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EarthQuake
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Deus Vult plz. But then again, Plutonia's "Go 2 It" is rather difficult too.
Old Post 01-14-08 01:22 #
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Butts
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why not out of every single level? of the official levels... lets see here:

doom e3m2
udoom e4m2
doom2 map30 used to be impossible for me, but hardest is probably map29
plutonia map32 used to be damn hard, but i think map30 may be the hardest, not sure actually
tnt map 30 because i dont like it.
Old Post 01-14-08 02:34 #
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Inferno
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I say Go 2 It, though it gets much easier once you know the level layout and play it a few times.
Old Post 01-14-08 02:39 #
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myk
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While Go 2 it can be dangerous when you're unfamiliar with it, it provides a lot of ammo and health to slaughter the monsters with, and thus there are more lethal levels in Plutonia, such as Slayer and Anti-Christ, to name a couple.

I guess the toughest in DOOM II could be The Living End. In Thy Flesh Consumed the first two levels are relatively perilous.
Old Post 01-14-08 02:52 #
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Prince of Darkness
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I'd say...

Doom: E2M2, becuse I really don't know how the hell to get out of the goddamned level. Otherwise, E4M2 took me awhile.

Doom 2: "The Suburbs" and/or "Barrels O' Fun". The Suburbs because there are soooooo freakin' many of them, and "Barrels O' Fun" because of, but not limited to, the beginning Mancubus and the maze of Barrels. But then, after that, there is the fight with all the Arachnotrons...

After that, I haven't played them enough to really know.

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Old Post 01-14-08 03:54 #
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StupidBunny
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Let's see...

Unfortunately, I can't give an accurate appraisal of Doom I because I haven't played Thy Flesh Consumed all that much. I guess of the first three episodes I would have to go with E2M4. Some of the other ones were pretty tough, but that one seemed harder than a fourth map ordinarily would be. And no matter how many times I play it, I still get lost somehow.

In Doom II, I never actually found The Living End to be that hard. It sure isn't easy, but I'd say that maps like The Suburbs or The Spirit World are harder. I don't have the patience to beat MAP30.

Plutonia, I also haven't played enough to judge fairly. Go 2 It is pretty ridiculous. Hunted is a good candidate, partly because of all those damn archviles but also because I hate labyrinths. Odyssey of Noises is pretty tough, and really huge, but I was able to clear it eventually. There are some of the later levels that I haven't played much that are pretty nuts.

The levels in Evilution are pretty well-balanced, and it's hard to pick one as being the hardest. The Administrative center (MAP21) took me a long time to beat. I got lost on MAP18 (The Mill) and died a few times. I'd say on this episode, the hardest would be MAP30, although metal (MAP08) was fairly hard, and both of the secret levels are pretty intense.

Overall, I would choose something from Plutonia most likely.
Old Post 01-14-08 06:06 #
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Mithral_Demon
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Hmmn....

Doom II- I say probably Map 29 if your not very careful, I tend to get ass raped by a caco and pushed into the lava most the time. ._.

Doom- I'm not sure... Probably pistol start E3M8, just a rocket launcher isn't enough. (Yes, I purposely do pistol start on final levels sometimes)

Final Doom- Map 11: Hunted, It's hard, but it is possible, just can't beat on Nightmare, respawning just gets on my nerves.

Ultimate Doom- Now... I'd agree on Perfect Hatred.

Plutonia-(Final Doom)

Evilution-(Part of Final Doom, but will do this one...) I would...Say it's more likely Map 30 due to the platforms of voo-doo deaths.

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Old Post 01-14-08 06:20 #
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myk
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The difficulty of a level will seem different according to the movement capabilities of the player and his knowledge of the level. Some can be nasty with more limited movement and easy with more dexterity, others may seem tough till one sorts out a route. I mentioned 29 because even if you know it well and move with skill, the potential attacks from different sides plus the restricted space make it relatively hard. Level 22 can also be hard (just try it in Nightmare). Levels 16 and 28 (or even Plutonia's 32) may seem daunting at first, but due to available space, invulnerabilities, item placement, and potential monster infighting, they can be "domesticated" to a greater degree.
Old Post 01-14-08 06:37 #
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Bashe
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Doom: Definitely E4M1. I hate that map, because there's literally like 5% health to heal yourself with in the whole map. After that, though, the episode isn't as bad. E4M3 can be a pain if you're not careful at the beginning because it's hitscan city, but other than that, it's easier. I find E4M6 to be a bit nerve-wracking though because of the fight with the Cyberdemon, and the fact that I tend to just do a volley back and forth with him at a long distance using some cover, and sometimes I may slip up and die.

Doom2: Map23 has given me trouble before, such as being my dying point on a one-sitting run of Doom2, simply because of all those god damned Pain Elementals after the teleporters. I guess it depends on how I got through map22 that will judge how I do on map23. Pistol start, however, is much harder in any case. Map29 can also be a bit crazy.

Plutonia: While map32 tends to be the consensus of hardest map, I've beaten it on UV before. It took time and lots of caution, but I did it. There are, however, other maps that are just total overkill, like map11.

Evilution: Map09 gave me a lot of trouble on a single run before, mostly due to the high number of hitscanners and seeming lack of health. Map08 was also nerve-wracking for me on a single run because I was running around a giant room with hitscan snipers and only like 2 health. Pretty crazy.
Old Post 01-14-08 06:44 #
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xit-vono
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I'll judge the hardest map by how hard it is to complete in nightmare.
Generally these wads are not too difficult for me to complete in ultra violence.
Udoom: e4m6 (surprised no-one has mentioned this yet)
Doom2: map22 or map29
TNT: map09
Plutonia: map12 i think. Haven't really played these harder ones in
nightmare
Memento mori: definitely map28 (not an official level set but it's been around a long time and is part of compet-n)
MM2: don't know, I suppose map19 is tough
Requiem: map14 or map18 probably
Old Post 01-14-08 07:32 #
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printz
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In general gauntlet levels are ones I label tough.

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Old Post 01-14-08 10:32 #
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K!r4
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Go2It in -fast -solo-net is a bit tough, but Iwads are not really challenging I think (but hell yes in Nightmare, I agree with Xit-vono).
Old Post 01-14-08 10:46 #
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Grazza
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Well if you're talking -solo-net, then Plutonia map22 needs a mention, as Vince has pointed out in the past.
Old Post 01-14-08 11:12 #
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Mike.Reiner
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Man.. most of the iwad levels didn't give me much trouble. But Plutonia's Go 2 It kicked my ass pretty hard at first. But other than that, none of the levels really stick in my mind as being remembered as really hard..

Well, TNT's map30 REALLY pissed me off, so I guess that would be it for me.
Old Post 01-14-08 11:34 #
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myk
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More than one person said "IWAD levels aren't too tough". That doesn't matter as far as determining which of those is toughest, since regardless of how easy they are one is going to be harder than another. Xit-vono's post was very good in showing how levels can still be considered hard. Even without using Nightmare mode it's easy to "pressure" a level and see how hard it can get. If the levels seem too easy for you, you're playing them too cautiously or slowly to enjoy them as a challenge.
Old Post 01-14-08 16:10 #
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Jodwin
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Either something from Plutonia (don't remember it too well) or something from E4. Hunted and Go 2 It aren't that bad at all, though.
Old Post 01-14-08 16:32 #
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Da Spadger
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That damn slime pit with the blue armor in E1M1 gets me every time. :[
Old Post 01-14-08 16:46 #
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Terra-jin
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Ultimate DOOM: E4M2 Perfect Hatred
DOOM ][: MAP29 The Living End
Master Levels: Trapped on Titan
TNT: MAP21 Administration Center
Plutonia: MAP32 Go 2 it
Hell Revealed: MAP24 Post Mortem
Alien Vendetta: MAP32 No Guts No Glory
Old Post 01-14-08 18:30 #
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printz
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Terra-jin said:
Ultimate DOOM: E4M2 Perfect Hatred
I'm not sure. If you know the way you get plenty of ammo and health. It's also cramped enough to play the same every time.
Old Post 01-14-08 19:07 #
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Mike.Reiner
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myk said:
More than one person said "IWAD levels aren't too tough". That doesn't matter as far as determining which of those is toughest, since regardless of how easy they are one is going to be harder than another. Xit-vono's post was very good in showing how levels can still be considered hard. Even without using Nightmare mode it's easy to "pressure" a level and see how hard it can get. If the levels seem too easy for you, you're playing them too cautiously or slowly to enjoy them as a challenge.

Yeah, I think your right. You could probably blame that on playing lots of Alien Vendetta and the Hell Revealed series.
At this point I play AV quickly and enjoy it, but I'm on about map 18 of HR2 right now, and, well, heh.. you can't play that wad too quickly on the first run.
Old Post 01-14-08 19:11 #
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Never_Again
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xit-vono said:
I'll judge the hardest map by how hard it is to complete in nightmare.
/me nods. The only way to go, IMO.

xit-vono said:
TNT: map09
Bingo! That's the only official level that has never been and probably never will be done on Nightmare!, though the irrepressible xit-vono did make it through with TAS.
Old Post 01-14-08 21:43 #
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xit-vono
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Never_Again said:
/me nods. The only way to go, IMO.

Bingo! That's the only official level that has never been and probably never will be done on Nightmare!, though the irrepressible xit-vono did make it through with TAS.

Well, I wouldn't be sure that it will stay undone on nightmare. Of course when I did the TAS I thought it was too hard, but I thougth the same of tn08, which Drew surprised us by doing. Also, when I asked him about tn09 he said,"tn09 is a luckfest," which makes it sound as if it's possible(although it would require a lot of luck). I have not looked at it seriously though.
Old Post 01-15-08 02:00 #
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Vile
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It's possible alright, in the same way that a pa02 might be possible... it can be done, but whether or not you'd feel good about it in the end is debatable. :)

I always joked that ev31 was the hardest level because I could never find the yellow key back in the day. Of course, that's not even relevant in the fastest route, but that was before strafe-running was a concept to me (or patches).
Old Post 01-15-08 03:51 #
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DeumReaper
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for me on nightmare:
doom-E1M9 (SO many friggin ways to die by shotgun guys; enemies love to block paths)
udoom-E4M1 (PITA to try to outgun the shotgunners and getting the red key trick done without any trouble)
doom2-MAP29 (The cacodemon switch and the 3 catwalk areas are a pain)
masterlvls-BLACKTWR (so many areas to clear that respawning monsters are a bitch)
plutonia-MAP11 (fast archviles)
tnt-MAP09 (hitscan hell)

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Old Post 01-15-08 08:22 #
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TheAdmantArchvile
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Anything from the plutonia Experement. Especially Go 2 it. Nuts is freaking Impossible
Old Post 01-15-08 21:24 #
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Coldfusio
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It will always depend on the level but it wouldn't surprise me if uv fast 100% is in general more difficult then nightmare.
For me afterlife map26 on uv is the toughest hr map.

Edit: I started the solo-net 22 plutonia, pity it's one of my least favorite maps in the iwad.
What about dem map 18 from 1996.
I find that map much harder then deus vult. Maybe it's impossible, because I don't see a working strategy with pistol start. But the other 17 maps are playable with pistol start.
(It has four stars but I have to admit I voted 2 times and gave it the max. 3 1/2 starts is how 8 "honest" people rated it, I'm sorry Ling)

Last edited by Coldfusio on 01-16-08 at 00:12
Old Post 01-15-08 23:02 #
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BJ Blazkowicz
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The usual suspects; Go 2 It, Hell Revealed, etcetera.
Old Post 01-16-08 03:09 #
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Cyclone
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Perfect Hatred is an obnoxious level, but obviuosly gets easier the more it is played. The same can be said for virtually any level, even absurd maps like go 2 it (as sum1 said earlier) aren't necessarily as difficult to beat after having run through them several times. However, I think that there are sum levels that do not ever get easier to beat simply because the map design is very complex and can amplify the effectiveness of the monsters. Take level 11, the hunted, from plutonia. Can anyone honesty say that they know their way around that level? Not to mention the countless archviles which can corner you if you aren't paying attention. The spirit world is another good map.
Im surprised no one mentioned the monster condo or industrial zone. At this point, the topic is open to any level that anyone feels is not necessarily a joke level, meaning it does not have to be from official episode, but can be from other wads.
Old Post 01-16-08 20:10 #
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