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John Carmack
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So, like Wolfenstein 3D Classic on the iPhone, Doom Classic allows you to start a game on any of the levels, and tracks which levels you have attempted and completed.

There was usually an attempt to put some weapons near the start point of levels to handle death respawns, but it was far from uniform or well tested. I basically don't want to punish players overmuch for not saving the game continuously, or getting the savegame overwritten by having to take a phone call.

Anyone want to take a stab at a reasonable "gear schedule" for doom? The first release will be with the Ultimate Doom dataset, but eventually all of the commercial levels will be available. Something like:

E1M1 - E1M3 : pistol with 25 bullets
E1M4 - E1M9 : pistol with 25 bullets + shotgun with 10 shells
E2M1 : ... etc ...

Does anyone hate the idea?

John Carmack
Old Post 06-01-09 15:16 #
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Khorus
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Well. Balancing on the PC seemed ok to me on most the levels on pistol start from memory. But this might suit the iPhone quiet well considering it's a more casual experience. I'd suggest that no more than the shotgun be given from scratch though.

EDIT: Perhaps for consistency, stick to existing ammo amounts. For instance, pistol would start with 50 bullets (ammo box) and shotgun with 8 shells (shotgun pickup).

Last edited by Khorus on 06-01-09 at 15:39
Old Post 06-01-09 15:33 #
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Necros20
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John Carmack? I didn't know you posted here.
Old Post 06-01-09 16:18 #
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exp(x)


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Unfortunately many of us here have a warped sense of difficulty from playing the game for so long. I think modifying the default start weapons is the best solution, but I have no idea what would be ideal.
Old Post 06-01-09 16:21 #
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udderdude
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I'd say starting with pistol+50 bullets is fine for episode 1, possibly for episodes 2-3 you might want to give a shotgun. Episode 4 is meant to be challenging, so I would keep it to pistol+50 bullets. But that's just me. Realistically, on episode 4, you'd want to give the player a shotgun and chaingun.
Old Post 06-01-09 16:22 #
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Gez
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Might want to make people start with a backpack in the later levels. Maybe something like that (cumulative):

E1M1: Pistol + 50 bullets
E1M4: Add shotgun + 8 shells
E1M7: Add backpack

E2M1: Pistol + 50 bullets
E2M3: Add shotgun + 8 shells
E2M5: Add backpack
E2M7: Add chaingun + 50 more bullets

E3M1: Pistol + 50 bullets
E3M2: Add shotgun + 8 shells
E3M4: Add backpack
E3M5: Add chaingun + 50 more bullets
E3M7: Add rocket launcher + 2 rockets

E4M1: Pistol + 50 bullets
E4M2: Add shotgun + 8 shells
E4M3: Add backpack
E4M4: Add chaingun + 50 more bullets
E4M5: Add rocket launcher + 2 rockets
E4M7: Add plasma rifle + 40 cells

As an incentive to find the secret levels, maybe also add a green armor to all starting gear in an episode where the secret level has been completed.
Old Post 06-01-09 16:23 #
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AlexMax
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Pistol starting every map is possible. However, I think agree with you that it can be a little 'much' at times, especially given the iphone's movement limitations. How about this instead...

When selecting a map that is not the first map in an episode (not ExM1 or MAP01), a prompt will ask you if you want to pistol start or have some additional gear. Finishing a map from a pistol start awards a 'pistol start' medal kind of like 100% kills/100% items/100% secrets.

Additional gear falls under these very generalized guidelines. This applies to Ultimate Doom, Doom 2, Plutonia and TNT (can't speak for master levels):

ExM2-ExM4: Pistol, Shotgun, 50 bullets, 8 shells
ExM5-ExM8: Pistol, Shotgun, Chaingun, 70 bullets, 8 shells

E1M9: Pistol, Shotgun, 50 bullets, 8 shells
E2M9: Pistol, Shotgun, Chaingun, 70 bullets, 8 shells
E3M9: Pistol, Shotgun, Chaingun, 70 bullets, 8 shells
E4M9: Pistol, Shotgun, 70 bullets, 8 shells

MAP02-MAP06: Pistol, Shotgun, 50 bullets, 8 shells
MAP07-MAP11: Pistol, Shotgun, Chaingun, 70 bullets, 8 shells
MAP12-MAP20: Pistol, Shotgun, Super Shotgun, Chaingun, 70 bullets, 16 shells
MAP21-MAP30: Pistol, Shotgun, Super Shotgun, Chaingun, 70 bullets, 16 shells, Backpack ammo extension (just the expanded capacity, no extra ammo above what I specify)

MAP31-MAP32: Pistol, Shotgun, Super Shotgun, Chaingun, 70 bullets, 16 shells

My rationale for the secret level loadouts are that they should probably have the weapons of the map you access them from, so if you follow the maps 'in order' it kind of makes sense.

As for Doom 2/Final Doom, I don't like giving the player any of the 'power' weapons (Rocket Launcher and above) from the outset in any case, and I'm also 'late' on giving the player the Super Shotgun (even though you can pick it up in the second level I don't hand it out until the 12th) simply because it's such a powerful and versatile weapon that can handle any baddie all the way up to and including the Baron of Hell.

Ammo amounts were obtained by adding up how much additional ammo a normal weapon pick would give the player. You might want to increase the numbers for ITYTD (90 bullets if the player starts with a chaingun, 16 shells if the player starts with a shotgun, 32 shells if the player starts with a shotgun and supershotgun).

I also believe that these are sufficiently generic enough to work with 90% of custom maps as well.
Old Post 06-01-09 17:15 #
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Creaphis
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I'm not sure that extra ammunition is necessary. Some levels may seem unbalanced when started with just a pistol, but it's worth noting that that list of levels includes e3m1 (you have to kill 2 cacos with a pistol on UV) and e4m1 (killing all the barons with the available ammo is very difficult, and the level is brutally tough in general), and the only way these levels have ever been played is from a pistol start. Later levels are not necessarily more difficult to play from a pistol start than earlier levels, so if you feel that the potential Doom audience on the iPhone needs a break, you may as well make these extra "weapon packages" available on all levels, including the episode beginnings. Don't get carried away with their contents, either - a shotgun, chaingun and 25% armor would already tip the scales heavily in the player's favour.
Old Post 06-01-09 18:53 #
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40oz
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Necros20 said:
John Carmack? I didn't know you posted here.


I was wondering this too.
Old Post 06-01-09 18:57 #
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DuckReconMajor
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Personally, I think it should be done by difficulty level instead of by map. I think that those who are very familiar with the game and play on Ultra Violent will be able to make it without added help. And, as others have said, it is very possible and adds to the challenge.

I also think that the player should be given less than 8 shells if given a shotgun. I think a shotgun blast should be a last-ditch effort when cornered, not a primary source of firepower.

I think it should go like this:
    ITYTD/HNTR - shotgun/4 shells
    HMP - shotgun/2 shells
    UV/NM - no shotgun
Old Post 06-01-09 19:54 #
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Vermil
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Maybe it would be best to leave it completely in the hands of the user. As in allow them to pick any weapon(s) and ammount of ammo from a list, to enter a map with.
Old Post 06-01-09 20:02 #
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Use3D
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Vermil said:
Maybe it would be best to leave it completely in the hands of the user. As in allow them to pick any weapon(s) and ammount of ammo from a list, to enter a map with.


That was my idea, perhaps a small selection menu in the map screen, where players can pick from a few weapons based on their own skill, from the weapons available during the episode. The e2 weapons like the plasma rifle and BFG wouldn't appear as choices until later in e2-3, for example.
Old Post 06-01-09 22:56 #
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TimeOfDeath
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Whoa, doom erection!

Will there be cheat codes in the iphone version?
Old Post 06-01-09 23:08 #
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Super Jamie
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A complex system of trying to balance 130-odd commercial levels over 15 years of different player experience is doomed to failure. Especially considering it seems Thy Flesh Consumed, Plutonia and TNT are intentionally designed to be more difficult than the first three episodes and Doom 2. A simple option which preserves original gameplay, but doesn't alienate newcomers, is probably the best.

I suggest to just have an "extra stuff" tickbox on the level select screen. No matter which level players choose, they can either do a pistol start, or have something like Shotgun + Chaingun + a box of ammo for each, and maybe 25% armor too.
Old Post 06-01-09 23:34 #
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Zafbot
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Personally i think the game should be ported exactly how it is...sure it will suck if someone calls you and you have to exit the game, or if you die than have to restart with the pistol, but people should save their games...than it wont be a problem.

Than they could say to the other person at the other end of the phone line: "you DOOMED me!, ah!"

than they say:

lolz, you noob.
Old Post 06-01-09 23:50 #
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Quasar
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Might make sense to at least award a rocket launcher on the ExM8 levels, IMO. Facing down any of the bosses with just a chaingun isn't my idea of fun. Though it is true you can find some other weapons on their levels, this is not the case in E1M8. Granted, the Barons are easier to take down, too, but I usually save most of my E1 rocket collection specially for them.
Old Post 06-01-09 23:51 #
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DuckReconMajor
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Quasar said:
Might make sense to at least award a rocket launcher on the ExM8 levels, IMO. Facing down any of the bosses with just a chaingun isn't my idea of fun. Though it is true you can find some other weapons on their levels, this is not the case in E1M8. Granted, the Barons are easier to take down, too, but I usually save most of my E1 rocket collection specially for them.
I disagree. Standing two feet in front of a Baron, chaingun blasting, dodging balls of demon snot is one of the highlights of the game imo.

But hey, that's just me.
Old Post 06-01-09 23:55 #
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AlexMax
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Quasar said:
Might make sense to at least award a rocket launcher on the ExM8 levels, IMO. Facing down any of the bosses with just a chaingun isn't my idea of fun. Though it is true you can find some other weapons on their levels, this is not the case in E1M8. Granted, the Barons are easier to take down, too, but I usually save most of my E1 rocket collection specially for them.


E1M8 is very beatable with just a shotgun and chaingun. If the player needs a rocket launcher, they can play through earlier maps and enter it with one.

E2M8 has a rocket launcher and rockets out the wazoo.

E3M8 is kind of light on the ammo, but you're supposed to use infighting anyway.

E4M8 has plenty of guns + ammo, even a BFG9000.
Old Post 06-02-09 00:18 #
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Kaiser
Doom64 Guru


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John Carmack said:
So, like Wolfenstein 3D Classic on the iPhone, Doom Classic allows you to start a game on any of the levels, and tracks which levels you have attempted and completed.

There was usually an attempt to put some weapons near the start point of levels to handle death respawns, but it was far from uniform or well tested. I basically don't want to punish players overmuch for not saving the game continuously, or getting the savegame overwritten by having to take a phone call.

Anyone want to take a stab at a reasonable "gear schedule" for doom? The first release will be with the Ultimate Doom dataset, but eventually all of the commercial levels will be available. Something like:

E1M1 - E1M3 : pistol with 25 bullets
E1M4 - E1M9 : pistol with 25 bullets + shotgun with 10 shells
E2M1 : ... etc ...

Does anyone hate the idea?

John Carmack


For something like the iPhone, this is considerably useful. Depending on what weapons and ammo that are available early on in each level, these should be likely candidates for starting gear in each level. In E2M3, the shotgun and chaingun can be aquired in just a few minutes, in which the shotgun and chaingun will be the startup gear for that particular level.

For ammunition, it can be distributed evenly based on what weapons are available in the startup gear. So as an example, if the player just starts out with the pistol, then he is given 50 clip rounds. If starting out with the pistol + shotgun, then it would be 25 clip rounds and maybe 10 shells for the shotgun. Having a chaingun with a shotgun can provide 100 clips and 15 shells and so on.

With the blabbering aside, my thoughts would be:

E1M1: Pistol, 50 Clip
E1M2: Pistol + Shotgun, 30 Clip, 10 Shell
E1M3: Pistol + Shotgun, 30 Clip, 15 Shell
E1M4: Pistol + Shotgun, 30 Clip, 15 Shell
E1M5: Pistol + Shotgun + Chaingun, 100 Clip, 20 Shell
E1M6: Pistol + Shotgun + Chaingun, 100 Clip, 20 Shell
E1M7: Pistol + Shotgun + Chaingun, 100 Clip, 20 Shell
E1M8: Pistol + Shotgun + Chaingun, 150 Clip, 25 Shell
E1M9: Pistol + Shotgun, 40 Clip, 15 Shell

E2M1: Pistol + Shotgun, 30 Clip, 10 Shell
E2M2: Pistol + Shotgun, 30 Clip, 10 Shell
E2M3: Pistol + Shotgun + Chaingun, 50 Clip, 20 Shell
E2M4: Pistol + Shotgun + Chaingun, 50 Clip, 20 Shell
E2M5: Pistol + Shotgun + Chaingun + Plasmagun, 50 Clip, 20 Shell, 50 Cell
E2M6: Pistol + Shotgun + Chaingun + Plasmagun, 100 Clip, 25 Shell, 60 Cell
E2M7: Pistol + Shotgun + Chaingun + Plasmagun, 100 Clip, 30 Shell, 60 Cell
E2M8: Pistol + Shotgun + Chaingun + RocketLauncher + Plasmagun, 80 Clip, 25 Shell, 10 Rocket, 60 Cell
E2M9: Pistol + Shotgun + Chaingun, 100 Clip, 25 Shell

E3M1: Pistol + Shotgun, 30 Clip, 10 Shell
E3M2: Pistol + Shotgun, 30 Clip, 15 Shell
E3M3: Pistol + Shotgun, 30 Clip, 15 Shell
E3M4: Pistol + Shotgun + Chaingun, 50 Clip, 20 Shell
E3M5: Pistol + Shotgun + Chaingun + Plasmagun, 80 Clip, 20 Shell, 40 Cell
E3M6: Pistol + Shotgun + Chaingun + RocketLauncher + Plasmagun, 100 Clip, 25 Shell, 5 Rocket, 40 Cell
E3M7: Pistol + Shotgun + Chaingun + RocketLauncher + Plasmagun, 80 Clip, 25 Shell, 5 Rocket, 60 Cell
E3M8: Pistol + Shotgun + Chaingun + RocketLauncher + Plasmagun + BFG, 80 Clip, 30 Shell, 10 Rocket, 60 Cell
E3M9: Pistol + Shotgun + Chaingun + RocketLauncher + Plasmagun, 100 Clip, 25 Shell, 5 Rocket, 40 Cell

Gez said:

E1M7: Add backpack


Also I feel that giving armor and the backpack as startup gear would be too much in my opinion as armor is almost always available near the beginning of each level anyways. The backpack is concidered a bonus and not really essential for completing the level.
Old Post 06-02-09 00:20 #
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DuckReconMajor
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AlexMax said:
E1M8 is very beatable with just a shotgun and chaingun. If the player needs a rocket launcher, they can play through earlier maps and enter it with one.
I think the whole point of this, though, is that since the levels will be selected individually, there won't be a way to carry weapons from one level to another.
Old Post 06-02-09 00:20 #
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AveryMaurice
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Well, Doom (classic) needs some new stuff in it. Lately I have a feeling I am doing the same stuff over and over so welcoming this idea is alright with me.

Also, holy shit... John Carmack posts here?

lol, rocket scientist.
Old Post 06-02-09 00:35 #
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Gez
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Kaiser said:
The backpack is concidered a bonus and not really essential for completing the level.

I just annoys me in an E1M8 pistol start that I can't pick up all the ammo boxes before taking the lift to the star-shaped room.
Old Post 06-02-09 00:39 #
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InsanityBringer
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But isn't there a hidden switch which would allow you to go back down and resupply if needed?
Old Post 06-02-09 02:46 #
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TheDarkArchon
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I wouldn't be against the idea, but I certainly would want it to be an option along side the traditional pistol and 50 bullets
Old Post 06-02-09 03:03 #
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Mr. Chris
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InsanityBringer said:
But isn't there a hidden switch which would allow you to go back down and resupply if needed?


I think it's in the right wall inside the right Baron holding structure.

Oh, and hi Carmack.
Old Post 06-02-09 04:17 #
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chungy
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Thing about Thy Flesh Consumed, you can't really raise the given ammo as the level numbers are higher; the levels are pretty inconsistent when it comes to difficulty throughout the episode, so you need a bit more thinking to work E4 out just right.
Old Post 06-02-09 04:21 #
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printz
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No, please, no added ammo at the start, because it's Doom and it has to play in a regular style, without programmed bonuses... Any extra needed things can very well be implemented by placing gettable items on the ground... though if it's coop it's another story, as anyone can steal what should be for you.

But generally, no.

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Old Post 06-02-09 10:17 #
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Gez
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printz said:
No, please, no added ammo at the start, because it's Doom and it has to play in a regular style, without programmed bonuses...

And without keyboard and mouse since it's an iphone.
Old Post 06-02-09 10:25 #
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Sigvatr
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It depends on how good the controls are for iDoom. Playing Doom with a mouse and strafing, for instance, makes the game remarkably easier than using turning keys and a strafe button. If iDoom has difficult input then this will be worth taking into consideration.

Ultimately at the end of the day I this is just something that won't need to be changed. People don't even hold on to the pistol very long anyway, they tend to pick up a shotgun very quickly.

I've already seen screenshots with some shotgun guys in E1M1, so I don't think this is really something to be worried about anyway because the pistol is pretty useless and gets replaced quickly.
Old Post 06-02-09 11:55 #
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Graf Zahl
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I have the bad feeling that you get a very skewed perspective here due to many players who know the game inside out and either consciously or not apply their own experience to the initial values.

That said, I think that an iPhone version is *not* aimed exclusively at the long term experienced Doom player so inexperienced players have to be factored in.

The needs of mobile games are vastly different than on PCs so the starting difficulty has to reflect this.

Also, from personal experience in mobile game development I can say for sure that most users will not read manuals or help screens. No idea if this has any impact on Doom as it basically plays itself but it may also be a factor.

Overall I second Gez's suggestion but would leave out the backpack. It seems to be the most balanced one of all opinions that have been posted so far.
Old Post 06-02-09 13:21 #
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