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Gez
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CyberBaron said:
Perhaps the demons are more intelligent than we give them credit for. What if they are fully sentient beings? Working under that assumption,

... they are changed from utterly alien things to just boring little green men with an attitude problem.

Things are much neater if they aren't sentient, biological creatures, if they build the structures of Hell with their hands, if they don't have a day job, and so on. Then they're not demons, they're orcs or romulans. BO-RING.

06-29-09 23:48 #

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CyberBaron
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Gez said:

... they are changed from utterly alien things to just boring little green men with an attitude problem.

Things are much neater if they aren't sentient, biological creatures, if they build the structures of Hell with their hands, if they don't have a day job, and so on. Then they're not demons, they're orcs or romulans. BO-RING.

I was talking more about them being sentient beings, while still being literal demons. The names "Archvile," "Baron of Hell" and "Hell Knight" seemed to imply a sort of cast system to me, in which the Archviles were the Satanic clergy, the Barons were feudal lords and the Knights were their underlings. In addition, the Icon of Sin always struck me as being a sort of "God of the Damned" who created the normal demons as his minions. They'd still feast on the souls of the living and such, but they'd also have their own desires and personalities.

06-30-09 00:25 #

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Snarboo
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Like a perverted, twisted version of humanity? It's possible. They could possibly be independant manifestations of Satan himself or facets of his personality. Almost a hive mind, if you will, but each creature has more independance and reasoning.

06-30-09 00:59 #

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Super Jamie
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It's implied ingame that Barons and Cacodemons have a rivalry, though whether this is more than animal instinct (like dogs and cats fighting) is not really explored.

It certainly seems story-wise the monsters are under a hivemind control (Spiderdemon in Doom 1, Baphomet in Doom 2) though their more primal response to pain can temporarily override this and results in infighting.

Though reading too deeply into the Doom story is never really a good idea :)

06-30-09 01:13 #

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CyberBaron
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Snarboo said:
Like a perverted, twisted version of humanity? It's possible. They could possibly be independant manifestations of Satan himself or facets of his personality. Almost a hive mind, if you will, but each creature has more independance and reasoning.

Exactly. Which brings me to another question about the demons: where are the females? Almost every humanoid demon in the game seems either decidedly male (like the Baron) or downright genderless (like the Revenant). Are the females so similar to the males that we, as the Doomguy, can't tell them apart? Are the demons misogynists who only allow males to engage in war? This genuinely confuses me.

06-30-09 01:13 #

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Super Jamie
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Impse picture in 5... 4... 3...

06-30-09 01:17 #

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CyberBaron
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Super Jamie said:
Impse picture in 5... 4... 3...

Don't tempt me. I saved those away to mess with people's heads.

06-30-09 01:29 #

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myk
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CyberBaron said:
Which brings me to another question about the demons: where are the females?

The end boss is female... didn't you see her giving birth to all those monsters in Map30? You can't see its cybernetically enhanced boobs, but trust me, they're out there!

Seriously, though, that sort of speculation can be mildly entertaining, but the game doesn't have explanations. Especially DOOM, where the background story is as meaningful as the "story" in a porn movie. Investigating the game's makeup is cool, but more in regard to technical workings and influence, not in discovering how the characters or places "really are".

06-30-09 01:38 #

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CyberBaron
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myk said:
The end boss is female... didn't you see her giving birth to all those monsters in Map30? You can't see its cybernetically enhanced boobs, but trust me, they're out there!

Seriously, though, that sort of speculation can be mildly entertaining, but the game doesn't have explanations. Especially DOOM, where the background story is as meaningful as the "story" in a porn movie. Investigating the game's makeup is cool, but more in regard to technical workings and influence, not in discovering how the characters or places "really are".

Yeah, you're right. I just like over-analyzing things.

06-30-09 01:44 #

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Antroid
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Well, i can say that i like Gez's view on this much more. For some reason demons being so sentient and building everything in hell just doesn't seem as interesting, or as right..

06-30-09 09:55 #

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Maes
I like big butts!

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Things tend to go pretty downhill once monster sexuality is brought up in a thread. Better not to...oh no wait :-(

06-30-09 13:57 #

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Jodwin
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In Doomverse, do other (manlike) sentient cultures exist? How would they perceive hell and demons?

If you assume that there are other sentient cultures somewhere out there in Doom universe (lets forget about Doom 3 :P), which is a fair assumption considering how bloody huge the universe is, would the hell look the same to them as it looks to humans? Because, really, that image could be very far away from that culture's view of a hell-like place.

With that trail of thought, I like to think that hell somehow saps into the image of hell of the culture it's attacking and forms itself in that image, always recreating itself when faced with new cultures.

06-30-09 16:31 #

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Antroid
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Maybe medieval-looking hell would be a lot more ominous/weird/outworldy for other cultures :D

06-30-09 16:36 #

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Maes
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A way to totally demystify hell would be to look at it as any other workplace/institution/authority:

The demons/devils are nothing but poor bastards in fireproof red vests that just try getting by working there.

They clock in every morning, wear some red fireproof vests, grab their gear (pitchforks, lashes, torture instruments, torches, propane burners, bellows etc.) and with a tired grunt worth of Al Bundy after a day at the shoe store, they shamble to their business.

One can (presumably) apply for the position of apprentice devil by becoming a satanist or by being picked for your "qualities" during your mortal life (so gangsters, politicians, etc. get to be devils in the afterlife as well).

Sure enough, there would be various ranks of devil/demon to which one can rise through service and depending on his aptitude. So a lowly apprentice will be given a beaten up fireproof vest and will be tasked with the more menial tasks like carrying all those heavy torture instrument, having to swim in the lava/shit/whatever, etc. while the higher ranking devils can enjoy torturing the damned, using more sophisticated machinery and implements, and have authority and responsibility over lower ranking devils. Very high ranking devils have their own offices and other positions of responsibility.

Those entering hell as The Damned just didn't qualify for Heaven, nor did they make the appropriate career choices early on ;-)

If you think about it, there are real-life scenarios where "hell-like" situations ensue (dictatorships, authoritarian states, military occupation, etc.) and where only those working for the system, be them lowly snitches, informers, members of paramilitary political organizations, armed forces, law enforcements etc. have it easy and have unsurmountable authority over others. If you know you're going to hell, you'd better be with the devils ;-)

Last edited by Maes on 06-30-09 at 17:39

06-30-09 17:29 #

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CyberBaron
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Maes said:
If you know you're going to hell, you'd better be with the devils ;-)

Which may be where the Revenants come in. They seem more like modified humans than resurrected demons, so maybe they're humans who have gone an agonizing mystical procedure to become demons themselves. This might also explain the many corpses put on display throughout the game: they're a reminder to the lower castes that if they don't do as they're told, they'll be destroyed in the most unpleasant ways possible. Either that or creatively mangled corpses are the big new thing in Hell's art scene. ;-)

06-30-09 19:20 #

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GreyGhost
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Jodwin said:
If you assume that there are other sentient cultures somewhere out there in Doom universe (lets forget about Doom 3 :P), which is a fair assumption considering how bloody huge the universe is, would the hell look the same to them as it looks to humans?

For all we know Hell might look like this or this to an alien culture.

07-01-09 07:47 #

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printz
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CyberBaron said:

Which may be where the Revenants come in. They seem more like modified humans than resurrected demons, so maybe they're humans who have gone an agonizing mystical procedure to become demons themselves.

Like the Doom 3 commandos.

This might also explain the many corpses put on display throughout the game: they're a reminder to the lower castes that if they don't do as they're told, they'll be destroyed in the most unpleasant ways possible. Either that or creatively mangled corpses are the big new thing in Hell's art scene. ;-)

Do those corpses have a story, or shouldn't they? They happen to be dressed alike, have the same skin colour, and same shapes. Yes, there are two categories, Doom 1 and Doom 2, the latter also reminescent to the archvile. Of course it's recurring art style, but a mod where the mangled corpses turn into zombies and move around sounds interesting. Hell, there are already lots of tortured zombies in Doom, all invariably static unkillable decoration, when they would at least get off their spear and attack you like troopers :P

07-01-09 08:43 #

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CyberBaron
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printz said:
Like the Doom 3 commandos.

That's where I got the idea from, actually. Another thing: why do the native (i.e. non-human) residents of Hell, who are technologically advanced enough to have cybernetic implants, walk around without clothing or armor of any sort when there's a merciless, well-armed human running wild in their land? Do they not like wearing clothing or something?

07-01-09 22:50 #

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DuckReconMajor
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CyberBaron said:
That's where I got the idea from, actually. Another thing: why do the native (i.e. non-human) residents of Hell, who are technologically advanced enough to have cybernetic implants, walk around without clothing or armor of any sort when there's a merciless, well-armed human running wild in their land? Do they not like wearing clothing or something?

They don't have weewees.

Seriously, though, they don't seem to have any place on them that would be especially vulnerable, plus the fact that most of them are pretty much covered in muscles would just make clothes a hindrance.

Plus, on top of that, demons never really seemed like the defensive type to me. Yes they have cybernetic implants, but if you'll notice, they all seem to be more centered on blowing you to bits than anything else.

07-02-09 00:38 #

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Reaper978
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Things are much neater if they aren't sentient, biological creatures, if they build the structures of Hell with their hands, if they don't have a day job, and so on.

I think there's a good reason you make that statement. I feel that way as well. This human world we live in is very banal, dry, and tiresome. You have to worry about all these material world things, eating, sleeping, drinking, clothing, housing, etc. Demons are from another place where these rules don't apply. Their world isn't material, but ethereal (if you want my interpretation).

I actually think this human world is the lowest world. It would provide the foundation for everything else. It is just raw material. All of our practical concerns *seem* more important than spiritual enlightenment, but pure rationality leads to a world that is spiritually barren and pointless. So man invented religion. How convenient.

07-02-09 03:03 #

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CyberBaron
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DuckReconMajor said:
Plus, on top of that, demons never really seemed like the defensive type to me. Yes they have cybernetic implants, but if you'll notice, they all seem to be more centered on blowing you to bits than anything else.

Good point. Plus, wearing armor might get a demon made fun of for looking silly. Barons would look awesome with tribal tattoos, though.

07-02-09 04:29 #

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Super Jamie
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CyberBaron said:
Plus, wearing armor might get a demon made fun of for looking silly.

As opposed to Doomguy, who has those hot abs poking through the "convenient" rip in his armor :P

07-02-09 04:38 #

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CyberBaron
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Super Jamie said:

As opposed to Doomguy, who has those hot abs poking through the "convenient" rip in his armor :P

The military accidentally gave him the revealing "female player" uniform.

07-02-09 05:14 #

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printz
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CyberBaron said:

Exactly. Which brings me to another question about the demons: where are the females?

Yeah, I'm still waiting to see female versions of barons or hell knights in game. Are females usually harder to draw?

07-02-09 13:25 #

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Maes
I like big butts!

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*is waiting for the usual Rule 34 reference for Doom. Anytime now...anytime.*

07-02-09 14:17 #

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Gez
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There's no female demons because there's no male demons. They're just demons.

07-02-09 14:40 #

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Maes
I like big butts!

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"Wanteth thou know about the nature of the Holy Trinity? Read this here tome!"

"Wanteth thou know about the gender of Angels and Demons? Read this other tome!"

(From the movie "Brancaleone alle crociate" (Brancaleone at the crusades), where there is a scene with a recluse hermit/prophet writing divine tomes about various theological matters. And every tome must have weighed like 30 kg ;-).

Gez said:
There's no female demons because there's no male demons. They're just demons.

Are you aware of the amount of impse, cybiese, wolfsse and Rule 34 this statement will attract? And of course there's always Doom: Uncut...

07-02-09 14:52 #

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Creaphis
I will deliberately take a contrary position just for the sake of writing incredibly long arguments

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Maes said:
*is waiting for the usual Rule 34 reference for Doom. Anytime now...anytime.*

myk said earlier:
The end boss is female... didn't you see her giving birth to all those monsters in Map30? You can't see its cybernetically enhanced boobs, but trust me, they're out there!

07-02-09 16:45 #