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Do0minat0r
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Which episode of Final Doom do you think was a better play, Evilution or Plutonia?

For me, I'd say Plutonia was better. It just seemed like more thought went into its development, and it was more interesting to play. Evilutions's maps just seemed to (for the most part) have little to make them feel different from other maps that you could download for free - even at the time - while Plutonia actually felt like something different.

Last edited by Do0minat0r on 08-17-09 at 00:11

Old Post 08-16-09 23:57 #
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David_Dweedle
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I prefer Evilution myself.. although im alittle biased since im a huge Tech Base fan.. and most of Evilutions maps are Tech Base..

Plutonia is damn good tho just alittle too hellish for me.

Old Post 08-17-09 02:22 #
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Pavera
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Plutonia is my favorite. I love how fast paced and HARD it is, plus the visual style is one of my favorites. TNT is good, it progresses well but it basically feels like an extension of Doom 2. Plutonia was the first time I got really angry playing a Doom level.

Old Post 08-17-09 03:01 #
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Phml
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Evilution is my favorite out of the two, but to be honest it might have more to do with the music than the level design (both being great).

Old Post 08-17-09 03:03 #
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Pavera
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Yeah I do like the music in Evilution. The track in Human BBQ is one of my favorites in all of Doom.

Old Post 08-17-09 03:10 #
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Chu
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Evilution. Plutonia felt like a rehashed Doom 1 (nothing wrong with that, but it was a weird stylistic mix) and it had a little too much Hell in it. Evilution felt like a decent successor of sorts, but I really think Icarus/Eternal Doom as the sequels to Doom 2 (instead of Final Doom), and often view them as being just as official. Those two were really different and were much more striking than Final Doom was.

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Old Post 08-17-09 03:23 #
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Do0minat0r
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Wow, surprising, and leaves me with a good bit to comment on. I've got three Evilutions (although David_Dweedle admitted bias) and just one Plutonia. One thing, though, I was a little unclear. I know Evilution earns more on music for having new tracks, however, I tend not to really consider "extras" like music (or sounds, though that doesn't apply here) in my assesments unless they are either particularily good or very annoying (the latter of which is usually a problem with sounds if anything).

I should also mention style. Since calling a wad better than another just for reasons of style is generally just a bias, I tend to pay more attention to the other less biased, more important elements that make maps, such as gameplay, actual design/architecture, originality, etc.

But yes, I should have seen that the way I worded the question, I was bound to get a bunch of "Evilution."'s for the new music that wad contains as well as the more varied style of its maps. So on second thought, the results so far don't surprise me as much as they did at first.

I can't say for sure if I would have said Evilution or still said Plutonia if I considered every single aspect equally, but I can say that my resounding vote for Plutonia was based on considering only the truely important (and less likely to be biased) elements. Although, actually, I don't really think the new tracks in Evilution are that much better than the stock Doom/Doom II tracks. But that's just my opinion, and they are somewhat a different style, so I can difinitely see why someone might actually think they are better. And I do agree that Evilution varies more in terms of style; I just, as I said, tend not to look at that as one of the more major points, since all it amounts to for the most part is personal preference, and it generally does not have that major an effect on enjoyability.

So all in all, I think I just need to make the question clearer if I want to truely get the analysis I'm hoping to gather:

Instead of just asking, "Which one is better?", I should ask, "Which one do you think is better in terms of gameplay, enjoyability, actual architecture/map design, and uniqueness?". Or at least, if you think one is better just because of something not as important like music or style, stating that that's the only reason would be preferred, so I at least know which one you'd think was better if you used my way of judgement. That way I'm not outright forcing you to use any particular method of judgement in your final answer, which I certainly don't have any intention of doing.

Alternatively, just as an idea, you could list each element (gameplay [which includes things like challenge/difficulty/fun], style, architecture/design, music, originality, and overall [as well as any other you can think of]) and say specifically which one you think is better in each category. I'm certainly not going to insist on anywhere near that much work, but I thought I'd mention it as an idea as it would be a good way of providing a clearer picture.

Of course, I do want to make clear that, ultimately, what you do is your choice. I certainly don't mean to be forcing for anything; I just want to give some suggestions and make sure I'm as clear as possible. That's all.

Old Post 08-17-09 04:51 #
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Torn
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Plutonia all the way, TNT tries to be "real" but fails it big time.

Old Post 08-17-09 05:03 #
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Kyka
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If I look at it really objectively, I think perhaps Plutonia's levels are better designed in terms of architecture and layout. And like Torn points out, the levels don't try to be 'real'. But for me, Evilution gets my vote. I always thought it was scarier and more immersive than Plutonia.

Old Post 08-17-09 05:14 #
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Do0minat0r
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Torn said:
Plutonia all the way, TNT tries to be "real" but fails it big time.


In a way I actually agree with that, though I don't think Evilution is bad or a downright "failure" either. But he's got the right point IMO, just overdoing that point a bit.

Old Post 08-17-09 05:15 #
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Do0minat0r
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Kyka said:
If I look at it really objectively, I think perhaps Plutonia's levels are better designed in terms of architecture and layout. And like Torn points out, the levels don't try to be 'real'. But for me, Evilution gets my vote. I always thought it was scarier and more immersive than Plutonia.


Here goes the style stuff again. Oh well, I guess that's just how some people think. And when it comes down to it, I can't do a thing about that, nor will I try.

But Kyka, which one did you enjoy more? Be honest, if you enjoyed Evilution more, that's fine. But that's what calls the game as far as I'm concerned.

All this said, it's been far longer since I've played Evilution compared to Plutonia. Maybe I should play some Evilution to refresh my mind.

And maybe I should have done this as a poll; just a thought.

Last edited by Do0minat0r on 08-17-09 at 05:23

Old Post 08-17-09 05:18 #
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Snarboo
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I prefer Evilution. While Plutonia has stronger design, the design is a little too consistent at times and a lot of the maps look the same. Plutonia also has very bland lighting.

While Evilution's mapping is hit or miss, it feels more dynamic overall and the gameplay is better balanced IMHO.

Old Post 08-17-09 05:21 #
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Juiche
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tnt have good musics. Music of plutonia are copied from other doom games. Plutonia is harder and it have lot of monsters and ammunation.

Old Post 08-17-09 05:22 #
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Do0minat0r
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Another question just came up in my mind: If you all prefer Evilution, then why does Plutonia 2 manage to get such high ratings (currently 4.5 stars on /idgames and over 80% of the comments I see on it are very positive)? It just doesn't make that much sense to me. That's actually part of the reason why this is surprising me a bit.

Actually, maybe what I should do is ask, if Plutonia and Evilution were regular addons on /idgames, how many stars (out of 5) would you give each one? That'll help me decide if both are good but one is better or if there is a more significant difference in overall quality in your opinion.


Juiche said:
tnt have good musics. Music of plutonia are copied from other doom games. Plutonia is harder and it have lot of monsters and ammunation.


If you don't count the music, which do you like better - in particular, which was more fun for you? Sorry, but that post just wasn't all that clear.

Last edited by Do0minat0r on 08-17-09 at 05:48

Old Post 08-17-09 05:29 #
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myk
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TNT can have a "generic" appeal, as seems like part of its design objective, while Plutonia is more about refinement.

I prefer Plutonia because it is more fun, more challenging in a properly conceptual manner and more stylish.

Not that they are the most extreme case comparison to mark the difference, but, especially considering the two are distributed together, they mark the difference between a more eclectic "community project" and an more consistent personal or team creation, and also between a WAD that goes more for visual gimmicks or novelties against what's essentially a playability oriented level set.

The eclectic element in TNT shows up in the level design as well as the new resources. Some music is good, some is loud and shrill, some new textures are nice or decent, others stand out in a shoddy way. Plutonia's new texturing isn't particularly professional but there's quality in the way it's themed and it helps grant a solid character to the whole thing.

I don't take ratings too seriously as an analysis (see above) is better, but maybe I'd give TNT a 3 (what I give very many WADs that are decent or worthwhile to play overall but don't stand out that much) and Plutonia probably deserves a 5 (it has huge implications as far as level design and playing are concerned).

Old Post 08-17-09 06:15 #
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pcorf
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I actually like both of the episodes in Final Doom because they are so unique to each other.

TNT has some good new music especially with the songs in MAP04 and MAP06. The level design varies. The Human BBQ at the start of MAP02 gave that level its name. Deepest Reaches is a nice map because of its darkness and the final two maps River Styx and Last Call which were made by Jimmy Sieben were quite nice maps to play. MAP18 by Dario Casali and Ty Halderman was a really nice techbase map. Gameplay is good in TNT.

PLUTONIA was brilliant from start to finish. Really enjoyed playing through it and there were many nice maps. I liked MAP18 Neurosphere because of its Inmost Dens appearance.

Old Post 08-17-09 06:36 #
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printz
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None of them, really. Doom 2 may be better than them. That's because none of them have anything that distinguishes them from /idgames megawads. So bleh.

Old Post 08-17-09 08:26 #
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Butts
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Plutonia fucking kicks ass. Definitely my favorite "official" megawad. I basically state what others before me have said about plutonia -- refined, challenging, FUN...

Old Post 08-17-09 08:37 #
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Erik
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Plutonia because its gameplay, architecture and style influenced a lot of great later pwads and because evilution has godawfully ugly design that breaks almost every principle that makes levels look nice.

It's sometimes almost mindboggling to see how a tnt level goes from brutally cramped and ugly to extremely oversized and even uglier without even once approaching a good room-size and without any trace of good architecture. Plutonia has good room size.

There are exceptions in both wads though, a few tnt levels are good and a few plutonia levels look and play like barf.

Old Post 08-17-09 08:52 #
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Solarn
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Do0minat0r said:


Here goes the style stuff again. Oh well, I guess that's just how some people think. And when it comes down to it, I can't do a thing about that, nor will I try.

But Kyka, which one did you enjoy more? Be honest, if you enjoyed Evilution more, that's fine. But that's what calls the game as far as I'm concerned.

All this said, it's been far longer since I've played Evilution compared to Plutonia. Maybe I should play some Evilution to refresh my mind.

And maybe I should have done this as a poll; just a thought.


Style has a lot to do with enjoyment, you know.

Old Post 08-17-09 09:15 #
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Joshy
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For me, it's Plutonia. The designs were 'simple' or should I say classic but elegant. The layout designs are mostly full of flow combined with great architectures, the gameplay mostly never felt like it dragged on. I find Plutonia is my biggest influence on my mapping (probably since final doom was the only doom I played for years until I got doom2). There are some gems in Evilution though, but overall isn't as good, albeit different.

Old Post 08-17-09 09:18 #
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Graf Zahl
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Erik said:
Plutonia because its gameplay, architecture and style influenced a lot of great later pwads and because evilution has godawfully ugly design that breaks almost every principle that makes levels look nice.




I wouldn't be that harsh but it's true to a certain degree.

PLutonia has a mostly consistent level design that fits well together (the major exceptions being MAP28 and 29 which are a bit out of place.)

TNT on the other hand is wildly inconsistent. Some levels are great but then the next one approaches semi-garbage quality. Sometimes both styles are even mixed in the same level (MAP07, for example. The starting room looks fine but once you enter the teleporter - bleh!)

Old Post 08-17-09 10:08 #
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AgentSpork
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Evilution automatically goes down the gutter for me as soon as you get to MAP22 (Habitat). That map is bad enough to bring down an entire megawad. Plus I've always loved plutonia and its trademarked style.

Old Post 08-17-09 10:40 #
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Mr. Freeze
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Plutonia. Evilution was good, but it felt too much like DooM II. Plus, Plutonia was REALLY hard at the time, and I love hard wads.

Old Post 08-17-09 15:53 #
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Do0minat0r
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AgentSpork said:
Evilution automatically goes down the gutter for me as soon as you get to MAP22 (Habitat). That map is bad enough to bring down an entire megawad.


I agree with lyour Map22 comments, that map was pretty poor. I wouldn't necessarily go as far as you went in your second sentence though, I didn't think it was THAT bad.

Actually, I'd quite easily put at least Map04 and Map08, and possibly Map07 plus maybe even a few others in that same category. Map04, in particular, was a good idea, but horribly executed IMO. Otherwise, I do think that the maps of Evilution are mostly at least OK, some I'd probably venture to even call good, but Plutonia definitely seemed more consistent and original. Of course, I do think Evilution has the better Map30, but that's just one map after all.

Last edited by Do0minat0r on 08-17-09 at 18:46

Old Post 08-17-09 18:21 #
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TheCupboard
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Some maps in TNT are just generic and poorly made. There are techbase gems scattered throughout the wad that top many of Plutonia's maps, though. If you compare MAP01s between TNT and Plutonia, I'd say that Evilution's first map is quite superior. After playing Plutonia for a while, I realize that it has numerous advantages that make me prefer it, however.

Old Post 08-17-09 18:44 #
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Do0minat0r
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TheCupboard said:
Some maps in TNT are just generic and poorly made. There are techbase gems scattered throughout the wad that top many of Plutonia's maps, though. If you compare MAP01s between TNT and Plutonia, I'd say that Evilution's first map is quite superior. After playing Plutonia for a while, I realize that it has numerous advantages that make me prefer it, however.


I do agree that Evilution does have the better Map01, but only because it serves as a better introduction; Plutonia basically gets right into things. If I just considered the maps themselves, as random maps, I'm not sure which I'd say is better.

And I can also agree that there are some maps in Evilution that are just about as good as (and maybe even a few that are arguably better than) anything in Plutonia. The problem, though, is that the quality is just SO inconsistent.

All in all, I think what TheCupboard said actually describes my own opinion on this matter quite well. And although I still think Plutonia is better overall, I was probably giving Evilution a bit too little in the way of recognition in some of my earlier posts on this thread. After all, as I said, some of the maps in Evilution are actually quite nice.

All that said, there's another question I should ask: Which Plutonia do you think is better, 1 or 2? I'd say 2 myself and I'd definitely guess alot of others would as well given that it has 4.5 stars on /idgames with almost 80 votes, but I remember a few actually saying 1 back a few months ago when PL2 was being discussed. In fact, I believe I remember some actually saying they liked PL2 alot but STILL thought 1 was better. That's why I thought I'd ask this here.

Last edited by Do0minat0r on 08-17-09 at 19:01

Old Post 08-17-09 18:48 #
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Snarboo
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I like the inconsistency of Evilution because it reminds me of the original episodes so much, which were very inconsistent in style and appearance. Again, Plutonia has better design, but many of the maps look very similar and they all play about the same. I like Evilution's hodgepodge because it is more dynamic as a result. Even if the many of the maps are questionable, the gameplay is rock solid.

Old Post 08-17-09 19:40 #
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Vile
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Plutonia for me. I agree with the comments about Evilution's inconsistency, although it's still an enjoyable wad. I don't know the full history of the wads, but I wonder if Evilution simply was the victim of being rushed to completion after the offer came in (one example being that map31's yellow key is missing in single player, suggesting some slack in the testing).

Old Post 08-17-09 20:08 #
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Ismaele
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"Plutonia" is much better than "Evilution" in everything: gameplay, map layout, graphics, difficulty, etc. Moreover there are several flaws (such as doors that don't look like doors!) and even bugs (like that in map32 - if I am not wrong - where you can get stuck, if you don't know how to go forth!).
Casali brothers' IWAD is objectively much better than Team TNT's IWAD! If I had to write reviews for both .WADs, they would take something like 8-9 as for "Plutonia" and 6-7 for "Evilution".

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Old Post 08-17-09 23:04 #
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