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hardcore_gamer
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Why is Doom2's level design so shitty compared to The Ultimate Doom?

The Ultimate Doom has awesome level design with allot of unexpected fights and ambushes. The levels resemble stuff. But Doom 2 just has large empty areas, uninspired bland maps that don't really resemble anything, and is not even close to being as good as The Ultimate Doom. What went wrong? The same people were working on the 2 games right?

Were they just this busy trying to get the game released in time or something?

Last edited by hardcore_gamer on 09-22-09 at 19:07

Old Post 09-22-09 18:22 #
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Nuxius
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*in before another Sandy Petersen discussion.*

Old Post 09-22-09 18:31 #
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myk
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Let's see whether somebody finally manages to say something sustainably reasonable about why "DOOM level design is awesome" and "DOOM II level design sucks" past the usual weak generalizations and nostalgic bullshit.

Old Post 09-22-09 18:36 #
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Starke Von Oben
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hardcore_gamer said:
Why is Doom2's level design so shitty compared to The Ultimate Doom?

The Ultimate Doom has awesome level design. But Doom just has large empty areas, uninspired bland maps, and is not even close to being as good as The Ultimate Doom. What went wrong? The same people were working on the 2 games right?

Were they just this busy trying to get the game released in time or something?



The levels on Doom2 are more abstract. But I do agree, the level design in Ultimate Doom is far better.

Old Post 09-22-09 18:40 #
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hardcore_gamer
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myk said:
Let's see whether somebody finally manages to say something sustainably reasonable about why "DOOM level design is awesome" and "DOOM II level design sucks" past the usual weak generalizations and nostalgic bullshit.


There are many reasons for why Doom 2's level design is weak. The areas don't really resemble anything. Each area exists mostly of random rooms and shaped glued to each other. The fights are often less creative with allot of levels just throwing large amounts of monsters at you with very few surprises. The only thing Doom 2 really added to the Doom universe were new monster and the SSG.

Old Post 09-22-09 19:05 #
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Maes
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Probably trying to keep an "earthly" setting (buildings, cities, large open spaces etc. ) coupled with vanilla's mapping limits lead to weird levels, generally oversized compared to Ult. Doom and with less room for detailing and a much less clearly defined theme.

Were they set in hell? Surely not (although a few look hellish enough). In a techbase on an alien world? Nope.

Is it set on Earth, as the title claims? Could be, but it looks clumsy and ugly.

Military facilities? Hard to tell. Factories/engine rooms/processing plants? Some places are clearly that, but lack of detail makes them unconvincing. In fact the "industrial" setting is one of the weakest in Doom 2, despite the new textures supporting it. Ordinary cities with streets and buildings? They definitively tried that, but the result was for the most unrealistic and abstract.

I was always puzzled by the choice of textures: an overabundance of stone masonry, tapestries, standards, wooden panels, libraries etc. as if they planned to make a game mostly set in a gothic/magical setting or even in another point in time.

But even those textures and flats were used in an unconvincing manner, with many buildings looking like oversized wooden cabins, shacks or even pirate ships. There were very few elements suggesting that the game took place in the present-day or even the near-future Earth. On the converse, TNT: Evilution had a much more convincing setting, also thanks to the massive retexturing.

Last edited by Maes on 09-22-09 at 19:13

Old Post 09-22-09 19:05 #
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hardcore_gamer
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Maes said:
Probably trying to keep an "earthly" setting (buildings, cities, large open spaces etc. ) coupled with vanilla's mapping limits lead to weird levels, generally oversized compared to Ult. Doom and with less room for detailing and a much less clearly defined theme.

Were they set in hell? Surely not (although a few look hellish enough). In a techbase on an alien world? Nope.

Is it set on Earth, as the title claims? Could be, but it looks clumsy and ugly.

Military facilities? Hard to tell. Industries/engine rooms/processing plants? Some places are clearly that, but lack of detail makes them unconvincing. Ordinary cities with streets and buildings? They definitively tried that, but the result was for the most unrealistic and abstract.

I was always puzzled by the choice of textures: an overabundance of stone masonry, tapestries, standards, wooden panels, libraries etc. as if they planned to make a game mostly set in a gothic/magical setting or even in another point in time. But even those textures and flats were used in an unconvincing manner, with many buildings looking like oversized wooden cabins or shacks. There were very few elements suggesting that the game took place in the present-day or even the near-future Earth. On the converse, TNT: Evilution had a much more convincing setting, also thanks to the massive retexturing.



Exactly, the first few levels in the game actually resemble stuff and are very fun (like MAP02) but after that everything just looks random and ugly. And not just in terms of visuals, the gameplay sometimes felt a little random as well. But it's the shittastic layouts and level design that got to me the most. MAP15 is also in my opinion a good example of a map that resembles nothing and just looks like a turd, though i will admit that the level actually played rather well despite that.

Old Post 09-22-09 19:09 #
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Maes
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The problem is that most levels lack personality and don't look like anything. They don't resemble Earth, nor Hell, nor an alien planet. They don't remind of modern times, or of the future, and not even a recognizable past.

Someone could say that the "Earth" Doomguy is experiencing is a warped version of its former self, but most levels don't look eerie or corrupted in any way.

In fact, I'd rather the levels being deliberately bizarre and outlandish, with warped buildings, lying in a sort of liminal twilight zone, as one could expect from an Earth overrun and corrupted by daemons. Instead they mostly look bland, as if they never were real places. It almost feels as if the battles take place in a sort of movie set or theme park, for the most time.

Old Post 09-22-09 19:17 #
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myk
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hardcore_gamer said:
The areas don't really resemble anything.
The areas in DOOM resemble something? They're either generic and unrealistic maze "tech bases" or hell that sometimes uses the same textures used in the tech bases. DOOM marks the game's general theme well enough, as it's the original thing and gives a good idea of progress towards hell, but that by itself doesn't make its levels better. Just good in that department.


Each area exists mostly of random rooms and shaped glued to each other. The fights are often less creative with allot of levels just throwing large amounts of monsters at you with very few surprises.
I definitely fail to see this. Various levels in DOOM II have more strategic monster and item placement than many of the levels in DOOM. If anything, the authors still maintained a good degree of consistency between the two games, but showed some additional versatility during the sequel.

Petersen, who is generally criticized more than the other designers, arguably managed a better atmosphere in many of his DOOM II levels than in most of his work in DOOM, and came up with new concepts which tended to have more game play elements than his early levels: A level using teleporting hordes (16), a intense boss-like earlier level (7), a tricky barrel-based level (23) a level combining ledges, lost souls and vast environments with separate areas to explore (24), a level using buildings to play with height variation (13), a trick-theme level (8), and a unique and fearsome* boss level that wasn't just a plain shootout (30), to name some. It shows that he had more experience and time to put into them.

* The thumping bosses in DOOM may have been intimidating at first, especially when we were still struggling with the controls as newer players, but they certainly weren't as scary as that evil face that spewed endless enemies in a closed environment.

DOOM II added American McGee that did a solid job with relatively tough levels. Just think of any of his levels. Romero expanded his repertoire by adding more massive and challenging levels and not repeating what he had already done.

I'm not surprised that people that fret over "the environment" and mimesis can't fully appreciate DOOM II. By '94, the id guys knew the limitations of DOOM's technology and concentrated on the bottom line of what the tech can deliver, setting a mood and providing fun stages to play. And they delivered the game just in time, instead of stalling it for secondary and time-consuming aspects.


Maes said:
I was always puzzled by the choice of textures: an overabundance of stone masonry, tapestries, standards, wooden panels, libraries etc. as if they planned to make a game mostly set in a gothic/magical setting or even in another point in time.
It sure delivers a gloomier environment than something like Duke Nukem. It's kind of like when you read a Lovecraft story; the places depicted aren't realistic, instead they set a mood.


even pirate ships.
Heh, I missed that one...


On the converse, TNT: Evilution had a much more convincing setting, also thanks to the massive retexturing.
The retexturing was actually a weak point there, as much of the new texturing was of poorer quality. Remember those wooden crates? The MS-paint-like tech texture edits? I favor managing a loose but relatively pleasing aesthetic than something that tends to look recognizable of "like something", especially if the former also shows more play-oriented development: stuff made a certain way specifically because it's fun and made primarily to be played.

I sense that many people who are dissatisfied with DOOM II seek more of DOOM in it, but they're different. DOOM II delves more into being a violent and oppressive environment, while DOOM is a bit more about suspense. DOOM II is more clearly or effectively an action game. This difference makes sense for a first game and a sequel, as a new game is good for exploring and a second game should concentrate on exploiting what the game is best at instead of trying what a new game can do.

Old Post 09-22-09 19:33 #
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Antroid
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I like doom2's level design as abstract as it is. Lately i've even began to like it more than doom1, probably because it's more refreshing and i'm really sick of doom1 and cramped inside levels. ANd i really didn't like the visuals in TNT... Excluding that one good sky.

Old Post 09-22-09 20:08 #
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Enjay
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On the whole, I'm with hardcore_gamer and Maes. Definitely!

I would, however, concede myk's point that some of the monster/item placement in the Doom2 maps was clever or did add new gameplay elements. Map23 and Map08 are two maps that I enjoy re-playing but, bottom line, I'd have preferred something more convincing as something (which could be an utterly abstract warped hellish environment) and less "game for game's sake".

I really cannot agree, however, about the "scary... evil face that spewed endless enemies in a closed environment". Right from the get go I thought "it's a fucking wall". And it is such a hideously contrived gamey "got to complete it the right way" level with that rising platform and the small brain hole etc etc.

Old Post 09-22-09 20:10 #
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Graf Zahl
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The main reason should be obvious: Doom2 was rushed so less time was invested in making the levels good. The fact that the weakest of id's level designers did the majority of the work didn't help either of course.

Old Post 09-22-09 20:22 #
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Maes
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myk said:
It sure delivers a gloomier environment than something like Duke Nukem. It's kind of like when you read a Lovecraft story; the places depicted aren't realistic, instead they set a mood.


That's the problem: it doesn't even appear gloomy at all. Most levels appear designed with one kind of texture/materials (hence, the "theme park" effect I mentioned before), and use of lighting effects is almost nonexistent: most places are open, bright, and generally lack any sort of mood or atmosphere. They don't convey a sense of tension/despair/liminality. If anything, I felt like playing an extended version of Urban Wars beta (only less detailed) or even a random-ass assortment of techbase/factory elements like ForgeX.

Even Bloodfalls, that should be nothing short of kickass with such a name, ends up sounding contrived and corny, because you see, indeed, blood falls as soon as you start the level. Other levels like "Barrels o' fun" felt gimmicky from the beginning.

About the pirate ship...it was an exaggeration of course, az there's no level based on a pirate ship, but there's an excessive amount of wooden constructions that look like Peter Pan's treehouse or something. Again I can't help but wonder if they had an alternate theme in mind (like e.g. a steampunk setting) that got scrapped but they were left with the resources to use or lose.

The gameplay is another matter, and any perceived lack of atmosphere was offset by the novelty and the challenge brought in by the new monsters. Still, I believe that Final Doom used Doom 2's resources, included the retexturings in a more appropriate manner, and if either was released as Doom II: Hell on Earth it would have probably been better, but maybe it's just me.

Old Post 09-22-09 20:49 #
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Dutch Doomer
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Sequels suck, end of story.

Old Post 09-22-09 20:54 #
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Maes
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dutch devil said:
Sequels suck, end of story.


You win the thread. Here's an internets.

Old Post 09-22-09 21:06 #
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kristus
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I'll just start by saying I agree with everything Myk said. But I've argued the same point before and I am not gonna delve deep into it again.

I think people could use to be a bit more open minded when playing the Doom2 maps. Doom2 definitely did take a more abstract road than Doom1. Though to be honest there wasn't that big a detour since Doom1 was already pretty abstract.

I have a nostalgic connection to E1 of Doom. But it's not at all the most frequent set of maps I visit. That is Doom2. And if I do play Doom1, I usually play maps Episode 3 or 4.

Doom2's level design compares to abstract paintings. Someone watching can say. "-That's not art, that's something my 2 year old kid could draw." and then carry on with their life, completely missing out on the experience.

It's not something you can blame said person for really. It's a form that tends to require more of the audience.

Anyway i digress. Doom2's maps are great in my opinion. They not only have a more versatile and varied game play than Doom1's maps ever had. They are also letting your imagination roam freely.

People bitch about modern games being brown and gray and overly "realistic". Doom2 was the real deal. It was... is gameplay and imagination.

Old Post 09-22-09 21:08 #
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hardcore_gamer
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myk said:
The areas in DOOM resemble something? They're either generic and unrealistic maze "tech bases"


Yea, but at least they resemble at least that. Most of the Doom 2 levels don't resemble anything at all.

Playing the game feels like being thrown into some sort of a bizzaro world.

E3 and E4 in the Ultimate Doom are sometimes like that as well, but E3 is set in hell so its done on purpose and E4 was not made until after the original Doom was released.

And many of Doom 2's maps also just plain suck gameplay wise, like that late one where you have to walk through extremely narrow paths in order to prevent yourself from falling into the slime below you.

Old Post 09-22-09 21:15 #
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eargosedown
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Honestly, I don't like the Ultimate Doom outside of the first episode and a few odd levels here and there. By the same regards, I only like three or four Doom 2 levels. I believe that because all my favorite levels are immediately back to back to back, I tend to favor Doom 1.

As Maes said as well, Doom 2 was going for a 'theme' that Doom 1 wasn't, and as such, had less freedom of design.

Old Post 09-22-09 21:41 #
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Coopersville
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I only still play Doom 2, because of the abundance of megawads.

Old Post 09-22-09 22:11 #
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hardcore_gamer
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Coopersville said:
I only still play Doom 2, because of the abundance of megawads.


Yea, but it's the actual Doom 2 levels them self's that i think are lame.

Old Post 09-22-09 22:59 #
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printz
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Doom 2 has good level design, sorry. It's near perfect on Ultra-Violence, it just stops being challenging by the late hell levels, but otherwise it's very exciting on UV, unlike Doom 1, which is very easy on UV, Thy Flesh included. And the Doom 2 monsters are very cleverly designed, filling tactical gaps of Doom 1 beasts.

My favourite Doom 2 levels are the Sandy Petersen ones, because I get the chance to run directly into masses of enemies and risk being zapped, or watch themselves rip each other. Right, they're not beautiful, but they don't have to.

What I hate about Doom 2 are the skies and textures. They appear to be caricatures of the real world and for this purpose they look very boring (especially the standard brown brick and painted metal plates, which lack the SF personality of STONE2, STAR* or METAL1 from Doom 1). There are certain skylines on the web that look much more atmospheric than that static fumed city from Doom 2, even without any processing before importing (sadly they're very likely copyrighted, for some annoying reason). Anyway, I hate it when custom Doom 2 maps or megawads are invariably started with that ugly METAL2 and TEKGREN theme.

Old Post 09-22-09 23:12 #
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hardcore_gamer
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printz said:
Doom 2 has good level design,


Well some of the maps like O of destruction are actually awesome. But most of the levels look and play dull for me.

Old Post 09-22-09 23:21 #
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Super Jamie
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I agree with printz.

Except I love the Doom 2 textures and the tekgreen/metal thing :P

Old Post 09-22-09 23:25 #
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hardcore_gamer
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Super Jamie said:
I agree with printz.

Except I love the Doom 2 textures and the tekgreen/metal thing :P



I actually like the textures as well. It's just that there are so many maps use them in a way that don't pet me correctly (or at least that's how i think your suppose put it like, the pet part i mean.)

Seeing a while level use nothing but wood textures makes me want to vomit on the monitor (or the TV screen in case i am playing a console port.)

One example of a map where i think the textures were used well is MAP02: Underhalls.

Old Post 09-23-09 01:47 #
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Super Jamie
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Personally I wish American McGee had made more levels for Doom 2. I really like Sandy's levels, they provide gameplay over looks, but American's have both and his gameplay style mixes environmental and atmospheric challenges well, like Romero's Episode 1.

Sandy probably made more levels over Doom 1 and Doom 2 than all other authors put together, and in record time. Yes, a few are going to be lemons (eg: MAP21) but he's certainly got more good levels than bad. People need to give the guy a break.

Old Post 09-23-09 01:58 #
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Maes
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We're really overanalyzing it :-p

The level design is so shitty because many levels are just a bunch of monotextured giant boxes representing "buildings" thrown there ;-)

There, I said it.

*ahem*

...


...still I would really like to know if there was an alternate backstory or plot to Doom 2 that got rejected. The weird choice of textures makes me think of a heretic-like setting, or an early 20th century setting, with industries and drab environments. Think about it, it's set on earth, yet you never see anything remotely representing a plausible human town, activity location or artifact. Everything looks extremely rough cut and simplified, even by Doom standards.

Compare it with e.g. "Odyssey of Noises" (MAP29 from Plutonia) that rendered a much more credible city with streets etc. within vanilla limits.

On the other hand, it could just be that Doom 2 represents an Earth shaped by Daemons in an alternate reality (after all, you're informed after MAP07 that the "demons have brought their own reality with them"). In that case, they only proved how boring and unimaginative they are ;-)

Old Post 09-23-09 02:05 #
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Super Jamie
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I love MAP07 ;_;

Old Post 09-23-09 02:16 #
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hardcore_gamer
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Super Jamie said:
I love MAP07 ;_;


Dead simple? Yea, i liked that one as well.

Old Post 09-23-09 02:32 #
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I'm going to put my statement here clearly.

Doom did NOT have all perfect levels. There are a lot of them that were very poor.
I can come up with quite a few levels from Doom that were poor, like this one:
http://www.upload3r.com/serve/220909/1253669516.jpg

Then I can look at Doom 2 and come up with a lot of levels that were quite good or decent, like this parts of this one:
http://www.upload3r.com/serve/220909/1253669562.jpg

The theme for Doom 2 is different, that's why you're going to think the levels are shit. Doom 2 showed that it was possible to have large open areas without a HOM(MAP29), an interesting boss that just wasn't run and shoot(MAP30, I know someone already got this one), and levels that required some thinking to get around(MAP08).

Old Post 09-23-09 02:36 #
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kristus said:
Doom2's level design compares to abstract paintings. Someone watching can say. "-That's not art, that's something my 2 year old kid could draw." and then carry on with their life, completely missing out on the experience.


Sorry, while certainly there is some abstract art that is well done, I can't begin to believe that all of it has incredible meaning allowing it to be 2yo quality. Case in point...

I have a very large fondness for Episode 1. I think the level lengths and design styles are just right. The levels aren't too big, don't try to pull off effects when they clearly aren't working, and are overall very well balanced. There is also a nostalgia factor there, yes, but I would not say that the E1 maps are the best ones I've ever played, nor even are they the most often maps I play. I have a lot of fun on Dead Simple, but I would be lying if I said the level resembled anything. It's a box... with walls that go down when everything dies, then an eyeball in the middle. Architecture wise it's a terrible map, but it is fun.

There are other maps, like Downtown, that I like the atmosphere, but dislike some of the exact designs. Both Doom and Doom 2 have good maps and bad maps. Of those good maps, some have great gameplay, some of crappy design, and some have both. Doom 2's maps were without a doubt more advanced than Doom's. The rising platforms in Industrial Zone that simulated bridges were rather clever I thought, but I didn't particularly care much for that level's design.

I'm not sure I would say Doom is better than Doom 2, because I suspect that if I counted them up, the ratios for good to bad levels in each would be about the same. And of course this is entirely subjective, since each person will probably like different maps for different reasons.

Old Post 09-23-09 02:46 #
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