Doom Marine
Register | User Profile | Member List | F.A.Q | Privacy Policy | New Blog | Search Forums | Forums Home
Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Classic Doom > Doom General > Why is Doom2's level design so shitty compared to The Ultimate Doom?
Pages (10): « 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 » ... Last »  
Author
All times are GMT. The time now is 19:58. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
myk
webbed digits


Posts: 14316
Registered: 04-02



Splatter said:
the Doom 2 manual,
Probably written by some vaguely supervised employee or by the publishers. In any case, the game works well enough by itself to make anything the manual says irrelevant.

Old Post 09-28-09 00:05 #
myk is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Mike.Reiner
Forum Regular


Posts: 943
Registered: 01-05


I'm not going to bother reading all of this crap, so I'll just put my two cents in.

The Doom II levels feel rushed. There are some really good levels, and some really shitty levels.

The same could be said for Ultimate Doom (Inferno in particular), however, I feel the 'good' levels in Doom II aren't nearly as good as most of Ultimate Doom's levels.

That said, I think Doom II overall is kind of shitty compared to Plutonia, and maybe even Evilution.

Old Post 09-28-09 16:39 #
Mike.Reiner is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Cjwright79
Banned


Posts: 501
Registered: 11-09



hardcore_gamer said:

The Ultimate Doom has awesome level design with allot of unexpected fights and ambushes. The levels resemble stuff. But Doom 2 just has large empty areas, uninspired bland maps



I've found that 'bland' usually means 'subtle', coming from unsubtle people.

Old Post 02-25-10 02:24 #
Cjwright79 is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Mike.Reiner
Forum Regular


Posts: 943
Registered: 01-05



Cjwright79 said:


I've found that 'bland' usually means 'subtle', coming from unsubtle people.


Thanks for bumping this thread with your fantastic insight.

Old Post 02-25-10 02:56 #
Mike.Reiner is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Mr. T
Senior Member


Posts: 1136
Registered: 12-03


Doom 2 is a much better game overall than the original Doom.

Most people seem to remember the original Doom fondly because of Episode 1 - which completely kicks ass.

They seem to forget things like Inferno, which has some cool stuff like Mt. Erebus and the secret level, but E3M7 is probably the worst map in any version of Doom...a boring, long switch hunt that feels and looks like a Wolfenstein map.

Doom 2 just has better fights and more memorable maps. Map01 with the chainsaw right behind you... the massive fights in Map10 and Map11... the Cyberdemon - Spider mastermind fight in Map20...

The whole game is made of win! SUPER SHOTGUN

Old Post 02-25-10 03:24 #
Mr. T is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Cjwright79
Banned


Posts: 501
Registered: 11-09



Mike.Reiner said:

Thanks for bumping this thread with your fantastic insight.



How old are you? 12?

Old Post 02-25-10 03:56 #
Cjwright79 is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
eargosedown
Forum Regular


Posts: 733
Registered: 12-04



Cjwright79 said:


How old are you? 12?



Wow, you really burned him! Nice comeback dude!

Old Post 02-25-10 04:02 #
eargosedown is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Viewtiful-Chris
Banned


Posts: 172
Registered: 12-09



eargosedown said:


Wow, you really burned him! Nice comeback dude!



Damn, that's the most necessary post in this thread! Way to show him what's what!

Old Post 02-25-10 04:13 #
Viewtiful-Chris is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Cjwright79
Banned


Posts: 501
Registered: 11-09


You guys are idiots. I'm out.

Old Post 02-25-10 04:14 #
Cjwright79 is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
PRIMEVAL
Senior Member


Posts: 1200
Registered: 03-09


To contribute to the topic of this thread:

I find Doom II levels to be quite fun. Nothing of familiarity, but fun nonetheless. Episode 1 of Ultimate Doom was, indeed, amazing (though E1M6 and E1M7 are my least favorite), the rest of UD was mediocre. Doom II had an equal amount of fun levels, maybe even more. I find DII more challenging than UD, the music to be better, and just overall more enjoyable.

Old Post 02-25-10 04:23 #
PRIMEVAL is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
DuckReconMajor
Forum Spammer


Posts: 3557
Registered: 01-09



Cjwright79 said:
You guys are idiots. I'm out.
Odie Iron E

Old Post 02-25-10 04:26 #
DuckReconMajor is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Mike.Reiner
Forum Regular


Posts: 943
Registered: 01-05



Cjwright79 said:


How old are you? 12?


Cause I totally registered back in 2005 when I was 7 years old.

Old Post 02-25-10 05:16 #
Mike.Reiner is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Mr. T
Senior Member


Posts: 1136
Registered: 12-03


OMG GTFO

Old Post 02-25-10 07:45 #
Mr. T is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
[WH]-Wilou84
Member


Posts: 339
Registered: 12-06



Cjwright79 said:
I've found that 'bland' usually means 'subtle', coming from unsubtle people.

"Bland" means "tasteless", "uninspired", "empty". Like when you're making a corridor, you put one texture on the walls, one texture on the floor and ceiling, and you go build the next corridor / room that way.

Sadly many Doom II maps feel bland compared to Doom, imho.
Doom II map 29 is great, though !

Then again, with the limitations they had at this time, I guess it was pretty hard to make something big and detailed.

@ Cjwright79 : Here's a hint from a 25yo guy, since you seem to judge people's ideas regarding of their age : Relax man. Take a deep breathe. You have to understand that making 1-texture rooms and corridors was already not that good in 1994, let alone in 2010.

"1994-ish maps" doesn't always mean "maps that were made in 1994". It means maps with doors as high as walls, random texturing, clashing themes ( you're in a UAC base, you open a door and then you're in a marble hellish place ), misaligned textures, ammo and monsters placed randomly, giant lifts...

Just play classic stuff ( Plutonia, Requiem, Alien Vendetta... ) and compare with Doom II, you'll understand by yourself for sure. Then compare all this with your own work, and remember we're in 2010. Standards have evolved. Can't say it's for good, but it's a fact you must deal with as a map-maker.

__________________
- Death-Destiny, come back -

Old Post 02-25-10 09:04 #
[WH]-Wilou84 is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
BrokeAndDrive
Warming Up


Posts: 26
Registered: 02-10



dutch devil said:
Sequels suck, end of story.
Bioshock II. Refuted.


On the Doom vs Doom 2 subject, not sure what I can say that hasn't already been said, level-wise. But I will throw out that I just could never get into Doom 2, and 2's the one I actually played first! Doom 2 was so weak that I mistook it for the one made by some other schmucks, not Final Doom.

It wasn't until I got my hands on the original was when I began to love Doom -- that and remembering watching big brother play it from when I was too young to play it myself. I didn't play then because it looked much harder than my then staples of Commander Keen and Cosmo's Cosmic Adventures. Nostalgic sigh... Anyway, by the time I started playing, I was too spoiled by the SSG and killing fatties and flamers to get into it.

Anyway, Doom 2's levels are largely forgettable, and much of the music just SUCKS. I mean, listen to M1. What the fuck is that? What the fuck is that!? It's like Prince's dog shit all over his equipment, then he just shrugged and used it as lube, and the result is M1!

The next four are: snoozefest, freaking star wars (you kidding me? and don't tell me it isn't really star wars, every time I hear that tripe, threepio wearing a pimp hat and his army of ewok whores try to have rough sex with my mind, which is not cool), dunno what the hell to call this next gunk, and another uninspiring snoozefest. It wasn't until I got to M6 that I stopped muting music altogether, and M7 is my favorite Doom 2 music ever. M8 is decent, makes me think "Oh shit, what ingenious method of murder are they gonna throw at me next?" M9 I've decided I want playing at my funeral, M10 is more overtly gloomy and not as good but it's better than the first four levels.

On to more of my half-assed musical critiques. M11 is where they began to reuse the MIDIs. It isn't until 18 where we get to something new: a nice doom-and-gloom soundtrack. 20 up until they play the "louder" stuff is excellent for tension. 23 is alarming, perfectly capturing my initial forays of "barrels o' fun? what's this all about? wait, they weren't kidding... whuh oh mancubus attacking, and he just SHOT THE BARRELS! BARRELS EXPLODE!! SSSHHHIIIII- *BANGBANGBOOMDEADBOOMBANGBANGBOOM* ...fuuuck..." 25 is yet another boring snoozefest, 28 is good and what I'd call very "heroic", and 30 is their best "creep-out" tune. 31-32 are their wolfenstein levels and IMO don't really count, though 31 is what I'd want to hear when marching with my fellows to stamp out the necks of the lesser races. SIEG HEIL!

I'm thinking since they already hit the jackpot with the first Doom they probably were too distracted by their ascension into the gods of game-making to crank out another true masterpiece. But once again I ended up writing a lot more than I wanted to -- level music really is that big a deal to me -- so I'll just thank all those megawad-creators for slaking my Doom hunger with prime rib instead of a preservatives-loaded burger.

Old Post 02-25-10 11:51 #
BrokeAndDrive is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
zap610
JETSONZ KREW 4LYF


Posts: 845
Registered: 03-05



Cjwright79 said:
You guys are idiots. I'm out.


As in I'm leaving and never coming back? Or as in I got insulted on the internet and I need to eat lots of food and cry about it to feel better?

Old Post 02-25-10 12:21 #
zap610 is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
printz
CRAZY DUMB ZEALOT


Posts: 6129
Registered: 06-06


He's just out of the house.

Old Post 02-25-10 12:54 #
printz is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Bastet Furry
THE WERELION


Posts: 896
Registered: 09-02



BrokeAndDrive said:
[...] though 31 is what I'd want to hear when marching with my fellows to stamp out the necks of the lesser races. SIEG HEIL!

Stirb in einem Feuer, Hurenkind! Und deine Popo fickenden Freunde gleich mit du widerlicher Bastard!
Der Flachwichser aus Braunau, der Deutschland diese Suppe erst eingebrockt hat, ist tot. Also geh sterben, am besten leise, du kleiner Naziwichser!

(Sorry to the others, that had to be said. ;) )

@Topic:
As said before, the demons brought their own reality with them, warping ours. It can be seen as an excuse for bad level design, but in the end it all worked for me. I like Doom 2 maps.

Old Post 02-25-10 16:00 #
Bastet Furry is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Abyssalstudios1
Member


Posts: 647
Registered: 06-09


Frankly, I don't care much for many of Doom II's maps. I'm incredibly grateful for the new monsters, the SSG, and new textures. However, whenever I fire up a game of Doom, I don't play Doom 2. I haven't in almost a year. I play something that looks and feels good, or I just go deathmatch in Skulltag.

Ultimately, Doom 2 was God's gift to us. Without it, we would not have had Plutonia, Evilution, or any of the inspired megwads built on the ideas pioneered in those two IWADS. But when I play Doom, I play to have fun, not to get all nostalgic. I suppose that's why I play in GL mode, too.

Old Post 02-25-10 19:55 #
Abyssalstudios1 is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
DuckReconMajor
Forum Spammer


Posts: 3557
Registered: 01-09



Abyssalstudios1 said:
I play something that looks and feels good, or ... Skulltag.
lol

Abyssalstudios1 said:
But when I play Doom, I play to have fun, not to get all nostalgic. I suppose that's why I play in GL mode, too.
People don't always play software just to feel nostalgic.

Old Post 02-25-10 19:59 #
DuckReconMajor is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Abyssalstudios1
Member


Posts: 647
Registered: 06-09



DuckReconMajor said:
People don't always play software just to feel nostalgic.


Precisely.

Old Post 02-25-10 20:04 #
Abyssalstudios1 is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Cjwright79
Banned


Posts: 501
Registered: 11-09


When people make it their business to be pests, the best you can do is take your leave.

Old Post 02-25-10 20:05 #
Cjwright79 is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Abyssalstudios1
Member


Posts: 647
Registered: 06-09



Cjwright79 said:
When people make it their business to be pests, the best you can do is take your leave.



Cjwright79 said earlier:
You guys are idiots. I'm out.


MAKE UP YOUR MIND!

Old Post 02-25-10 20:06 #
Abyssalstudios1 is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
perkr
Newbie


Posts: 2
Registered: 06-06


Doom 1's initial levels are great in my mind. I have always loved them since I first played them on my 486SX.

In particular, E1 is amazing. It still is. Look at the detail, the use of SUPPORT to separate different "texture families", the subtle height differences, the way computer panels are inserted into the walls to give an additional sense of depth, the windows that give you glimpse of the Phobos landspace, etc. Amazing. Check out E1M5 and E1M7 in detail and keep in my mind that levels before those were essentially Wolfenstein style. Talk about advancing the state-of-the-art. E1 has also attention to detail in terms of gameplay. For example, many alternative routes are not necessary to explore but reward the player (e.g. E1M2,E1M3), there are areas where the lights go out and imps appear out of nowhere (e.g. E3), and areas where you have to backtrack a little but to keep things exciting enemies come out of secret chambers (e.g. E1M7). What E1 suffers is that it was designed for gamers in 1994, a time when no one really knew how to navigate a 3D game properly. Hence the levels are too easy now and many gameplay elements have become clichés. I still think a run through E1 is highly entertaining, even up to this day. Case in point, I played through Doom 1 on UV on my iPhone and E1 and E4M6 really struck out. Still.

However, past E1 it goes downhill monotonically. I wish Tom Hall would have had the time to complete E2 on his own without Sandy's involvement. Perhaps we would have had a more consistent E2. E2M1, E2M2 and E2M4 are ranging from OK to good, but IMO everything else in Doom 1 is pretty bad with glaring texturing errors. Essentially all maps that involved Sandy suffered borked textures and bland design. Aside from the original three episodes, E4 is particularly embarrassing (in one level the cacodemons are set too close together on UV so they cannot move! They didn't even bother to playtest the mapset...). E4M6 is a jewel though.

Despite getting Doom 2 as soon as it was released I never liked Doom 2's levels. The levels are large and bland. Doom doesn't work without care to mapping details. Without SUPPORT that separates textures, subtle height differences and clever architectural design, Doom becomes Wolfenstein 1.5 instead. What I suspect happened was that there was no real enthusiasm inside ID to make Doom 2. Hence all the bland maps. They could have done so much more with it, but they chose not to. OTOH today I am grateful we got Doom 2 because of the new monsters and textures which perhaps have been instrumental to maintain such a lively community around a 16-year old game.

Old Post 02-26-10 03:07 #
perkr is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Cjwright79
Banned


Posts: 501
Registered: 11-09



Abyssalstudios1 said:




MAKE UP YOUR MIND!



Or what?

I left for a while then came back to see if the venom had been expended. I see that it has not!

Old Post 02-26-10 03:14 #
Cjwright79 is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Abyssalstudios1
Member


Posts: 647
Registered: 06-09


CJ, I'm going to be incredibly blunt with you.

Personally, I have nothing against you. But there is nothing that makes me want to be empathic towards you, either. I've stayed out of the (admittedly funny) pointless debates that you seem to have attracted ever since you started coming here. I've done my best to find it somewhere in me to be accepting of you. I've mostly done this by ignoring you. But I really don't feel like keeping it up anymore.

You have demonstrated absolutely no semblance of accepting criticism. Your maturity level is absolutely sub-par. Asking people if they're 12 years old only makes you the one who seems like an idiot to every single person who reads your posting.

You upload wads to the archive that are mediocre at best, and are more frequently garbage (judging by the shitstorm that invariably accompanies each /newstuff review). Further, you seem to feel as if it is your duty to enlighten the uneducated masses with your ramblings. The latest stupidity I see in the 'Doomworld News' section only makes me wonder why you're not at least on probation right now.

In short, I do not like you. I realize this contradicts what I said earlier. I'm sure that, in real life, there is a man capable of decency and respect in front of your computer screen. But I've seen no signs of him here, on that avatar named 'Cjwright79'.

I do not presume to say that I speak for all of us. But I do know that I do not speak alone.

That is all; I will not be defending this post against the many, tiny flaws in this post that you will almost undoubtedly point out. But please, try to work on your appearance to us. We have no obligation to make you feel good.

Old Post 02-26-10 06:08 #
Abyssalstudios1 is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Kagemaru_H
Banned


Posts: 422
Registered: 09-09


I'm not going to flame anyone just because it's the "in" thing. It's just immature and stupid. I never noticed anything about Cjwright so I'll just leave him alone.

Old Post 02-26-10 07:00 #
Kagemaru_H is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
zap610
JETSONZ KREW 4LYF


Posts: 845
Registered: 03-05


Tell us more about what you aren't going to post as you post.

Old Post 02-26-10 07:07 #
zap610 is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
phi108
Member


Posts: 499
Registered: 03-08


I sort of agree with Abyssal. It seems like you are just spamming topics. If you post less often, and try to never defend every post you make, there won't be long pointless debates anymore, and we will have peace. *Big Darth Sidius grin*

Old Post 02-26-10 08:21 #
phi108 is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
BrokeAndDrive
Warming Up


Posts: 26
Registered: 02-10



Bastet Furry said:
Stirb in einem Feuer, Hurenkind! Und deine Popo fickenden Freunde gleich mit du widerlicher Bastard!
Der Flachwichser aus Braunau, der Deutschland diese Suppe erst eingebrockt hat, ist tot. Also geh sterben, am besten leise, du kleiner Naziwichser!


Babelfish Translation said:
Die in a fire, Hurenkind! And your Popo fickenden friends equal with you widerlicher hybrid! The Flachwichser from Braunau, which crumbled Germany this soup only, is dead. Thus go dying, best quietly, you small Naziwichser!
I... err... uh... YOUR MOM!

Old Post 02-26-10 08:45 #
BrokeAndDrive is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
All times are GMT. The time now is 19:58. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
Pages (10): « 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 » ... Last »  
Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Classic Doom > Doom General > Why is Doom2's level design so shitty compared to The Ultimate Doom?

Show Printable Version | Email this Page | Subscribe to this Thread

 

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are OFF
[IMG] code is ON
 

< Contact Us - Doomworld >

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.5
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Forums Directory