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destx
OMFG

Posts: 642
Registered: 04-01

Kagemaru_H said:
Doom on DS.

Enjoy your 256x192 resolution.

That single factor makes me regret buying the DS. It can't even emulate NES games properly.

03-04-10 03:19 #

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Kagemaru_H
Banned

Posts: 422
Registered: 09-09

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yBLEkNDu1Q&feature=fvw

It actually runs legitimately at 256x192. The reason DSDoom lagged is because it was loading the map, though you'd think it would load the map before any gameplay started.

Also, I see how the bottom screen contains both the automap and the status bar to compensate for the resolution, which is a clever use of the touch screen.

Also, enjoy your measly 27 levels while I'm playing 132 levels (three 32-level IWADs + one 36 level IWAD), and counting (AV and PL2 on the road with better battery life than your average laptop).

I would probably grab a DS emulator for the sole purpose of testing it.

Oh, and because you feel like shoving your superior resolution in my face, from this moment on, I'm running Windows at 800*600 out of spite.

Last edited by Kagemaru_H on 03-04-10 at 04:08

03-04-10 03:47 #

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esselfortium
Cumulonimbus Antagonistic Posting

Posts: 5268
Registered: 01-02

Kagemaru_H said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yBLEkNDu1Q&feature=fvw

It actually runs legitimately at 256x192. The reason DSDoom lagged is because it was loading the map, though you'd think it would load the map before any gameplay started.

Also, I see how the bottom screen contains both the automap and the status bar to compensate for the resolution.

Also, enjoy your measly 27 levels while I'm playing 132 levels (three 32-level IWADs + one 36 level IWAD), and counting (AV and PL2 on the road with better battery life than your average laptop).

I would probably grab a DS emulator for the sole purpose of testing it.

1) No one cares
2) This has nothing to do with this thread at all
3) Who are you even fighting with? People were talking about Gameboy Advance and suddenly you're arguing with an iPhone user in your head or something.

03-04-10 04:02 #

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Bastet Furry
THE WERELION

Posts: 896
Registered: 09-02

fishmech said:
I have to say DOOM on GBA was at least the best use of the Jaguar mapset, and Doom 2 for GBA is actually really nice, especially how it uses levels that are bearely simplified, minus making two levels into two sets of two levels each.

I must say i have never played it because i dont like playing a FPS with a joypad. But i find it fascinating from a programmers point of view.

fishmech said:
I don't particularly mind the green blood and as for monsters disappearing after they die - the GBA had 384 kilobytes of memory

But ADoom refused to run on my unmodified 2 MByte A1200. That should tell us something. ;)
I dont have this machine anymore, traded it for an A2000 with 040 Turbo and 16 MByte. Should try it on that one again...

fishmech said:
Actually there was wholly different renderers in each versus the other. DOOM had one renderer and used JAg maps, Doom 2 had another renderer and could handle a lot more stuff, so you got nearly full on Doom 2 PC maps.

[james]
Jagdoom? What where they thinking?!?
[/james]

IMO, its fascinating what they got out of the little ARM7 inside the GBA. Makes me think, would a port to 286 era PC be possible?
I mean, you get a whooping 1 MByte without tricks and you have up to 8 Mhz more than the GBA. Ok, its CISC vs RISC, but i still think it would be possible.

03-04-10 04:32 #

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Inhuman Strain
Green Marine

Posts: 30
Registered: 03-10

I've personally never really cared how "realistic" to the story/background the levels are, especially seeing as Doom is hardly something to consider for its plot in the first place (and rightfully so). As long as the levels are challenging and conducive to strong gameplay. Some Doom II levels do this very well and flow nicely. A few of the earlier ones are a bit silly, but still offer plenty of playing value and challenge to satisfy my bloodlust (not the REALLY early ones).

I think that Doom II levels are designed well, but the Evilution levels are hands-down the best. I remember starting up that game at 13, trying to beat it on Ultra Violence, and thinking, "Fuck, does this ever end? This is a LOT to take in". I never ended up finishing it. Perhaps it's time I make that my summer goal: Beat Evilution on Nightmare (if that's possible).

People who yammer on about the overrated Avatar flick and how beautiful Pandora was apparently never played Evilution. :)

03-04-10 04:53 #

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esselfortium
Cumulonimbus Antagonistic Posting

Posts: 5268
Registered: 01-02

Inhuman Strain said:
I think that Doom II levels are designed well, but the Evilution levels are hands-down the best.
[...]
People who yammer on about the overrated Avatar flick and how beautiful Pandora was apparently never played Evilution. :)

[citation needed]

__________________
essel.spork-chan.net - doom stuff, artwork, and music by esselfortium

03-04-10 04:59 #

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Inhuman Strain
Green Marine

Posts: 30
Registered: 03-10

esselfortium said:

[citation needed]

03-04-10 05:15 #

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ArmouredBlood
Senior Member

Posts: 1687
Registered: 05-09

Inhuman Strain said:

?

03-04-10 05:18 #

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Inhuman Strain
Green Marine

Posts: 30
Registered: 03-10

I know what it means, I just don't get why he put it there (besides the possibility that he's just taking the piss as indicated by his subtitle).

03-04-10 05:43 #

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esselfortium
Cumulonimbus Antagonistic Posting

Posts: 5268
Registered: 01-02

My subtitle? "Forum Spammer"? That was automatically assigned from my post count (before it I was "Forum Staple", and after it is eventually "Forum Legend"), and considering that it's taken 8 years to make all these posts, I don't think I'd call it that accurate. ;)

As for my comment, see this post. :P

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03-04-10 05:49 #

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Inhuman Strain
Green Marine

Posts: 30
Registered: 03-10

esselfortium said:
My subtitle? "Forum Spammer"? That was automatically assigned from my post count (before it I was "Forum Staple", and after it is eventually "Forum Legend"), and considering that it's taken 8 years to make all these posts, I don't think I'd call it that accurate. ;)

As for my comment, see this post. :P

Ah, I see.

As for that post, I agree that the level design wasn't completely perfect, but there was great use of complex structure and balance of open/closed spaces. As mentioned before, it was conducive to fun/challenging gameplay and that's good enough for me.

Also, the second to last picture you posted reminded me of Day of the Tentacle (don't know if that rings a bell, but it was where the Sludge-O-Matic was releasing toxic mutagen into the river, which ended up transforming a tentacle into a mutant genius after he drank it).

03-04-10 05:57 #

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fishmech
Newbie

Posts: 6
Registered: 02-08

Bastet Furry said:

I must say i have never played it because i dont like playing a FPS with a joypad. But i find it fascinating from a programmers point of view.

But ADoom refused to run on my unmodified 2 MByte A1200. That should tell us something. ;)
I dont have this machine anymore, traded it for an A2000 with 040 Turbo and 16 MByte. Should try it on that one again...

[james]
Jagdoom? What where they thinking?!?
[/james]

IMO, its fascinating what they got out of the little ARM7 inside the GBA. Makes me think, would a port to 286 era PC be possible?
I mean, you get a whooping 1 MByte without tricks and you have up to 8 Mhz more than the GBA. Ok, its CISC vs RISC, but i still think it would be possible.

The GBA does have the advantage that it has a significant array of hardware video abilities - such as it has built-in sprite support, and texture/sprite scaling/rotation.

You might want to try the actual game if you can on a GBA or a DS - its basically like playing keyboard-only on a semi-decent 486.

And the DOOM 2 maps used in GBA DOOM 2 are interesting in their own right - although many ones with extremely tall rooms get shortened somewhat. You even get the Romero and monster spawner in Map 30!

I actually think people who don't like Doom 2 PC's maps all that much should try playing on GBA DOOM 2 maps, if anyone's found a way to export the levelset yet.

03-04-10 18:12 #

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scalliano
This door is opened elsewhere...

Posts: 684
Registered: 08-09

Bastet Furry said:

I must say i have never played it because i dont like playing a FPS with a joypad.

You don't have to.

[/shameless plug]

03-05-10 00:25 #

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Mike.Reiner
Forum Regular

Posts: 977
Registered: 01-05

Kagemaru_H said:
but hey, it's Doom on DS.

I love how everybody claims DSDoom runs 'very' smoothly in single player, and by that they mean 15-20 FPS. Yeah, real smooth.

Too bad the DS is an uncomfortable piece of shit.

destx said:

Enjoy your 256x192 resolution.

That single factor makes me regret buying the DS. It can't even emulate NES games properly.

Oh god. I know. The resolution the DS is fucking terrible. All I ever use my DS for is playing NES games since all the official games suck ass, and it can't even do that properly.

Kagemaru_H said:

Oh, and because you feel like shoving your superior resolution in my face, from this moment on, I'm running Windows at 800*600 out of spite.

Are you retarded? No, I'm not being sarcastic; that is a serious question.

03-05-10 05:52 #

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GhostlyDeath
Forum Retard

Posts: 828
Registered: 08-05

Mike.Reiner said:
Too bad the DS is an uncomfortable piece of shit.

For all the games I have (1, Advanced Wars Days of Ruin 313673 - 057043 if you want to play some (PM me)), I never use the stylus. I also cannot use my DS in a dark room because it's backlight will hurt my eyes.

Mike.Reiner said:Oh god. I know. The resolution the DS is fucking terrible. All I ever use my DS for is playing NES games since all the official games suck ass, and it can't even do that properly. [/B]

The DS Screen is about 2.50"x1.75" so with a pixel ratio of 1:1, you get 100-110 DPI (range due to approximations). Personally however, I prefer a DPI of at least 144, it's really nice. But other than how dense the screen is, I stay away from all the other DS games and just have one because I like the series.

03-05-10 06:24 #

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DuckReconMajor
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Posts: 3835
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Mike.Reiner said:
Oh god. I know. The resolution the DS is fucking terrible. All I ever use my DS for is playing NES games since all the official games suck ass, and it can't even do that properly.

Kirby Canvas Curse is great and nothing you can say will ever change that.

So is Star Fox Command.

So is Mario Kart DS.

03-05-10 12:02 #

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EvilNed
Mini-Member

Posts: 77
Registered: 03-10

I have to say that whoever complained about how "realistic" Doom was and how "unrealistic" Doom II was is talking out of their asses. None of their games are realistic. None of the games have any levels that really look anything at all like what they are supposed to look like in the first place!

Does Hangar look like a Hangar? No, not really. And how about E2M1? That thing doesn't look like anything at all. Nothing in Doom looks like anything, really. Let's stop kidding ourselves. Doom 1 looks like a "techbase"? Sure, but Techbase is an extremely vague term to begin with. Except maybe the excess of slime in Toxin Refinery, you could really throw around the names of the maps and put them on any of the ones in Knee Deep in the Dead and nobody would be the wiser.

And as for E2 and E3 the map designs are really crappy. I love Doom, but there's nothing in Doom II that's as bland and boring as the stuff in E2 and E3. Sorry, but that's just another take on it.

I mean complaining about how the maps in Doom II not really looking like anything... Did you guys ever PLAY Doom I!? Nothing looked like anything! The Doom games have never been about that. They've been about great gameplay, great maps and great action. That's what the Doom games offer. They don't offer realistic maps.

03-05-10 13:36 #

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Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!

Posts: 7039
Registered: 07-07

It's abstracted realism. Yes, it does not look realistic, and shouldn't; the Doom engine is ill adapted to realism.

But it's more, well, immersive? Atmospheric? Disbelief-suspending? There's a greater continuity in themes. In Doom 2, you see gimmicky maps haphazardly thrown together. Some of the maps are great, of course; but many are devoid of anything that gives them a sense of being a location, rather than just an arena.

And it's not about realism. Maybe surrealism would please you better? I mean, let's make a metaphor and talk about paintings. Is this realistic? Is this realistic? No. But are they evocative anyway? Yes.

Doom 2 doesn't have the same charm. It doesn't try to depict areas. It is centered around raw gameplay elements, such as "here you can use infighting to have the two bosses kill themselves" or "here you can rush to the switch to activate a crusher" or "here you have a series of puzzles". In a way, they're levels rather than maps.

03-05-10 14:09 #

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EvilNed
Mini-Member

Posts: 77
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I disagree with the whole of my heart. The majority of Episode 2 and 3 in Doom I are real lackluster maps that contain no real substance and is little more than a collection of rooms. Most of Episode 2 is just basicly that: A collection of rooms doing what? Nothing, really.

Doom II has exciting areas with personality. I can't really think of a map from Doom II I dislike. I think they do their job and the majority of them have more personality than the majority of the episodes in Doom I.

And if it's surrealism you're after then again, I'd have to say Doom II takes the cake. I can see little of that in Doom I, except perhaps in The Flesh Consumed (which I think is the second best episode after Knee Deep).

03-05-10 14:33 #

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DuckReconMajor
Forum Spammer

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EvilNed said:
Doom II has exciting areas with personality. I can't really think of a map from Doom II I dislike. I think they do their job and the majority of them have more personality than the majority of the episodes in Doom I.

I disrespectfully disagree.

03-05-10 14:35 #

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EvilNed
Mini-Member

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Don't tell me that The Shores of Hell is nothing but a much of interlinked room with no cohesion. :p

03-05-10 14:38 #

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DuckReconMajor
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EvilNed said:
Don't tell me that The Shores of Hell is nothing but a much of interlinked room with no cohesion. :p

I won't because it's not :)

03-05-10 14:40 #

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Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!

Posts: 7039
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Dunno, E2 to me is nicely evocative of that "techbase transmogrified by being in Hell" atmosphere. In all of Doom, the only map which I do find really horrible as far as its design go is Mt. Erebus; though Refinery isn't that great either.

In Doom II, I have issue with all the gimmicky maps -- The Crusher, The Pit, Tricks and Traps, Gotcha, Nirvana, The Catacombs, Barrels of Fun, The Chasm, and Icon of Sin. Okay, Nirvana isn't gimmicky; it just plain sucks.

On the other hand, The Courtyard is an example of a good Doom 2 map. It's based around a gimmick as well (exploit infighting as much as possible), but it doesn't feel artificial

03-05-10 15:12 #

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Six
Junior Member

Posts: 213
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Gez said:
In Doom II, I have issue with all the gimmicky maps -- The Pit, The Catacombs, The Chasm...

I can understand the other maps listed, by why are these maps in particular considered gimmicky?

Just out of curiosity.

03-05-10 16:06 #

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EvilNed
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I think the "gimmicky" maps is what sets Doom II apart from Doom and raises the bar up a notch. UD is basicly all corridor running with maps that really don't stand out from each other at all. Sure Knee Deep in the Dead is a classic, but after that it goes downhill. E2M1 is a really, really shitty map.

I'm not against people not liking Doom II maps. Hey, if everyone shared the same opinion that'd be dull. But don't tell me Doom II maps are "unrealistic" and don't resemble anything, and then praise the oh-so-generic episodes of UD. Which, as I've already pointed out, don't resemble anything at all!

I love UD, Doom II, Evilution and Plutonia. But out of those, it's really only Evilution that resembles stuff. Doom II has some great ones too, tho. I love Downtown and Suburbs is my favourite deathmatch map of all time. I love the exploration part of Doom II. And some maps in UD are really great in that regard too, like Toxin Refinery!

In short, I love Doom. And I love all Dooms equally. There's nothing sub-par about Doom II's levels in my eyes tho. I think they're one notch above UDs.

03-05-10 16:10 #

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printz
CRAZY DUMB ZEALOT

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Maybe the Pit looks way to abstract not to be in some way gimmicky. It has all those unusual raising and lowering floors that connect areas.

The Chasm is obviously designed around the ooze-pits with teleporters and thin walkways motif.

The Catacombs is way too short and designed around that cramped dinky map with compass, and four marble lifts around theme.

03-05-10 16:10 #

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hardcore_gamer
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Gez said:
I have issue with all the gimmicky maps -- The Crusher, The Pit, Tricks and Traps, Gotcha, Nirvana, The Catacombs, Barrels of Fun, The Chasm, and Icon of Sin. Okay, Nirvana isn't gimmicky; it just plain sucks.

Don't forget The Chasm. It looks horrible and it plays horrible.

Also, I actually liked Nirvana allot.

03-05-10 16:22 #

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Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!

Posts: 7039
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Six said:

I can understand the other maps listed, by why are these maps in particular considered gimmicky?

Just out of curiosity.

A big pit, woopla. Gotta climb the elevators and look at random rooms before going to the next step.

The catacombs seem to have been designed just to feature that compass rose.

The chasm is all about running on catwalks high above radioactive ooze.

EvilNed said:
I think the "gimmicky" maps is what sets Doom II apart from Doom and raises the bar up a notch. UD is basicly all corridor running with maps that really don't stand out from each other at all. Sure Knee Deep in the Dead is a classic, but after that it goes downhill. E2M1 is a really, really shitty map.

Can't say I agree, and you're dismissing all the work done on interconnectivity. It's not just corridors, since there are windows, rooms, courtyards, different levels of elevation, etc. You can get tactical choices such as going through path A to charge the monsters gun blazing, or using path B to get to a place where you can chaingun-snipe them first, or path C to bypass them and attack them from a different angle which will maximize the potential for infighting, etc. There's a lot more non-linearity.

hardcore_gamer said:
Don't forget The Chasm. It looks horrible and it plays horrible.

I didn't.

03-05-10 16:30 #

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EvilNed
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Gez said:

Can't say I agree, and you're dismissing all the work done on interconnectivity. It's not just corridors, since there are windows, rooms, courtyards, different levels of elevation, etc. You can get tactical choices such as going through path A to charge the monsters gun blazing, or using path B to get to a place where you can chaingun-snipe them first, or path C to bypass them and attack them from a different angle which will maximize the potential for infighting, etc. There's a lot more non-linearity.

Woawie, I don't think you and me played the same game! I just finished UD again for the first time in a year maybe and after playing some Doom II lately I was surprised at how downright dull most levels in E2 and E3 were. Most of the levels do not differ much from the other and you can tell that whoever designed them (and I know Sandy did) didn't really put down that much effort into it. Or maybe he did put much effort into it, but hadn't reached the top of his game yet. E2M1 is the perfect, perfect example of this.

03-05-10 16:39 #

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Snakes
Senior Member

Posts: 1537
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EvilNed said:
. E3M1 is a really, really shitty map.

Fixed.

I don't know, the issue a lot of people have with the gimmicky maps doesn't seem to ring a bell with me. I like more of them than I dislike, that's for sure. Map09 sucks because of gameplay, Map21 sucks in general, Map24 is boring... Those are the 3 I have major issues with. Their gimmicks don't bother me, but their gameplay? You better believe it. Map09's imp/lost soul spam is what really drives me off the wall.

Doom II also had some of the most influential maps of all-time with Map07, Map14 and Map29. Saying the level design was shitty as a generalization is pretty stupid, IMO.

03-05-10 16:42 #

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Doomworld Forums > Classic Doom > Doom General > Why is Doom2's level design so shitty compared to The Ultimate Doom?

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