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alando1

Why expect perfection?

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Now I know many of you probably are thinking: "Oh boy, Alando1 is making an unimportant statement that no one should really care about."

Sure, many of you may think that, but what I am going to talk about is why are people expecting perfection in a Doom wad. For those who do have an interest in this topic, I appreciate you looking at this for a moment. Now I know a lot of you think I'm making this thread due to recent negative reviews, but that's not the reason. I've noticed that in the reviews for my wads (going back to Alandoguns), a lot seem kind of harsh and the people who write the reviews seem to be expecting more from the wads. I'm not going to go on with any specific wad of mine or anyone elses wad, but I just want to point out a few things. Believe me, I've noticed this with other wads as well.

Why would people look for perfection?
Answer: So that the wads would be up to par with today's games and Doom's advancements.

Reality -- Wads are a work of art. They're not supposed to look like the games of today. People can try and try as many times but Classic Doom will never look like its newest variant Doom 3 or UT3 or even Half-Life 2.

Since wad making is an art, it is never perfect. If the artist is not perfect, so is the art work. If you look at Picasso, his art work seems kind of funky but still it is unique in its own nature. If you look at Leodinardo Da Vinci and his "Mona Lisa", sure that's pretty good stuff there, but is it perfect? Same thing with the "Sisteen Chappel" by Michaelangelo; is that perfect? No. (It's pretty darn good though)

Believe me, there is nothing, in art work, wad making, or any form of creation made by an artist that is ever perfect. Sure, art can look pretty darn good, but it is never, ever, perfect.

When I play Doom wads, what I look for is the fun factor. I am not overly critical or specific about anything, I just play the wad and enjoy myself. I don't look at detail, I don't look at graphics, I look at what made Doom special in the first place... FUN. It's what all of you should do - just enjoy yourself. This is a game we have been playing for years, not a contest to show who has the best wad in the world. Building a wad shows how much we enjoy Doom and how much fun we get out of the game. It shows how much enjoyment we have that we are able to make our own levels and add-ons, and share it with people world wide. I build wads because I enjoy it. I love to build my own world, create my own story, determine the fate of the characters in the game, etc. Wad making is not a business, it is a hobby and it is an art.

Just to finish up, when I make my wads, I let my imagination do the talking. I'm not overly critical, and I'm not trying to beat someone in a competition to show I can do better. I want to show people I am an artist and this is my work. If you like it fine, if not, fine, but still give consideration. Wad making is an art and I am an artist. For those who are artists and who put their soul into their work, keep doing what you do best and most of all, enjoy yourself and enjoy what you do. Who cares about the "Simon" wanna-bees who give bad reviews, we are artists and we love what we do.

If any of you have a reply, I would prefer it stays on topic and no one makes any criticisms of my wads. I don't want to have to have others or myself putting people back on topic. I'd appreciate it.
Thank you.


-Alando1

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esselfortium said:

I don't expect perfection, but I'm not going to bother playing something if it's not competently designed enough to be fun to play.


This

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Wonderful, put whatever you want in your wads and nobody is going to stop you. They will probably post what they think though. As for your perfection rant, I see many highly regarded projects that are far from perfect, so I would say the problem lies with you.

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You know, this rant really pisses me off. I just can't believe anyone would be so fucking obsessed with reviews. I mean sure, I like positive feedback as much as the next guy, but I'm not some pretentious asshole who automatically assumes that I am deserving of positive feedback. How self-absorbed do you have to be to reach that level?

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Alando, I encourage you to continue making wads, but I would prefer that you also try to stay in the loop of knowing what wads are in demand.

I agree that /newstuff reviews can be pretty harsh and will judge your wad comparing to the great wads we've all played before, and that's tough competition. Maybe what you see as fun and what others see as fun are two different funs. Which is fine but maybe you might want to consider making wads for yourself?

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40oz said:

Alando, I encourage you to continue making wads, but I would prefer that you also try to stay in the loop of knowing what wads are in demand.

I agree that /newstuff reviews can be pretty harsh and will judge your wad comparing to the great wads we've all played before, and that's tough competition. Maybe what you see as fun and what others see as fun are two different funs. Which is fine but maybe you might want to consider making wads for yourself?


Speaking of newstuff, my first newstuff review was published to the current newstuff chronicles (Hell Ground) and I thought I was pretty nice. (Then again, Deadall makes kickass wads.)

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No one really expect perfection, i remember when i shared my first map with the community i got many good criticism and it was far from being a perfect map. People who doesn't put effort into their map shouldn't expect the others to put effort into playing. Also in the /newstuff its only the opinion of ONE person so you shouldn't let it get to you.

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I think I know what you are trying to get at, the people who are like "that texture was not aligned you suck and your wad sucks". The ones who pick out all the little dumb things, that you thought was good but they didnt. In the end it doesnt matter, as long as its what "YOU" wanted.

Make wads for you if people dont like o well.

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Flesh420 said:

Make wads for you if people dont like o well.


I think that defeats the overall purpose of submitting them to the /idgames archive. :P

Also, a lot of people here have seen tons of great WADs, so making yours stand out is a challenge. Often times, people come to these forums (often nubs) submit a wad, get a bad review and bitch about it. Just understand that the criticism will come and take it lightly, and fix up those mistakes next time.

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Avery, since you mentioned your newstuff review: PLEASE take and submit a few screenshots next time! Even moreso if it's a wad that clearly had a lot of work put into its visual design, but just in general.

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alando1 said:
Reality -- Wads are a work of art.

While their craftsmanship has some of the qualities of art, it is dominated by something else. Art is something that works on itself and avoids serving a true purpose other than itself. Or if it had any such purpose to begin with, it is lost as it becomes art. DOOM, on the other hand, has a rough purpose. WADs are game levels, furnished with corresponding sound and graphics resources, made in the service of playing.

Why would people look for perfection?

One of the reasons is to try to make WADs into art. It can be done, but I think DOOM is too good of a game for that. Other, more generic things are better mediums for art. To each his own, of course.

Another reason is not knowing well what to do with DOOM or its PWADs. People then try to make it into something else, something external to it which is the objective of that perfection. As you noted in some way, this tends to be a relatively futile effort.

When I play Doom wads, what I look for is the fun factor. I am not overly critical or specific about anything, I just play the wad and enjoy myself. I don't look at detail, I don't look at graphics, I look at what made Doom special in the first place... FUN. It's what all of you should do - just enjoy yourself. This is a game we have been playing for years, not a contest to show who has the best wad in the world. Building a wad shows how much we enjoy Doom and how much fun we get out of the game. It shows how much enjoyment we have that we are able to make our own levels and add-ons, and share it with people world wide. I build wads because I enjoy it. I love to build my own world, create my own story, determine the fate of the characters in the game, etc. Wad making is not a business, it is a hobby and it is an art.

This is sane and wise, especially for a hobby. But do trust me, however, when I say artists, especially those that go past the amateur level, tend to be pretty insane about their work, like martyrized prophets and delusionally driven businessmen.

There are different ways to deal with the game. Some seek to play it primarily, others use it as some sort of expression, others just have fun while chilling. To a point, most of us do all of this, to one degree or another. The people who you feel are a bit too critical probably give importance to at least one of the first two ways to deal with DOOM, requiring something more balanced out and challenging or something more meaningful to them. They're not going away. That does not mean expressing what you said is a bad idea, of course, as it'll allow others that agree with you to know there are others like them.

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alando1 said:

Reality -- Wads are a work of art.

myk said:

While their craftsmanship has some of the qualities of art, it is dominated by something else. Art is something that works on itself and avoids serving a true purpose other than itself.


Now you can have the epitome of the two.

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Wads are a work of art.

In some cases, yes. But most of them aren't. Or only in a paint by number-sort of way.

However, if you argue that way, harsh or polarizing reviews are even more to be expected. Think of common reactions to those "one dot, two lines" paintings. Some people praise them to no end (especially if done by a famous artist), some immediately dismiss them as crap.

I think most people don't expect perfection, but they do expect a certain standard quality that clearly surpasses that of stock Doom maps. If a map looks poor, I can't enjoy it even with the most fun gameplay. It doesn't have to look next-gen, but still, mapping is more than just placing monsters.

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I don't expect perfection from a wad, and I certainly don't want to see an attempt at making Doom look like a modern game - such an attempt is doomed to fail from the start.

That doesn't mean I'm going to give 5 stars and glowing praises to everything I find fun. The point of a rating system is, well, to rate stuff. I can have fun playing a 1994 wad, but not nearly as much fun as the latest Alexander S. or Erik Alm wad ; and even if I don't enjoy something, I can appreciate if it's well done or not. Action Doom 2 being the most obvious example, I didn't care much for the gameplay and only played through it once but voted 4/5 or 5/5 (can't remember).

In my opinion, the Doom community as a whole is more talented than most other video games communities. Whereas in other games the average is quite often "make a map at all and release it", here we've got tons of maps that are arguably much better than the originals, to the point where some people play more custom wads than the original levels - if they play the original levels at all.

In other words, the standards in Doom are much higher than in other places. That means being average here isn't bad at all. Being average is pretty damn good if you ask me. A 3 star wad is usually something worth playing. When you see a 4 star wad, you know you're usually in for something great, and 4,5 or 5 is most of the time awesome.

Reiterating my above point, a few days ago I downloaded a Left 4 Dead campaign rated as 85/100. The thing was a terrible railroading cramped crap. Another rated 90/100 was full of bugs. That's the problem with overrating stuff ; you end up doing everyone a disservice, because nobody can tell what's good and what's bad. I'm certainly glad we don't have that here.

It's also a 1993-1994 game we're playing in 2009, and that's worth saying again and again. Lots of stuff happened to gaming since then, lots of games were released and lots of people have different opinions about what's cool and what's not. With so many different tastes around you've got to accept anything you'll make will be controversial, because no two doom players look for the same thing in a wad.

In the end, you don't have to read the doomworld /idgames comments or any reviews anyone makes about your work.

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esselfortium said:

Avery, since you mentioned your newstuff review: PLEASE take and submit a few screenshots next time!


Yeah, I will do that next time. I had a few format issue the first stuff around but I will be sure to include those next review. Thanks.

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Phml said:
and even if I don't enjoy something, I can appreciate if it's well done or not.

Really? In that case I would add at most a point to a score of 1 or 2 for talent, effort or aesthetics. This is tied to what I said above about WAD-making not being art.

A fun '94 WAD, which may contain some crudeness and limitations consistent with the tech and knowledge of the day, is better than a highly developed and anticipated project that isn't as welcoming to play. If this weren't true, I wouldn't be playing DOOM (including older WADs or even stock levels) more than other video games, for example. Elaboration might even play against my impression, if I see much effort put into something inherently flawed. Good design principles go a long way and bad ones lead to a quagmire. Aesthetics are dynamic, and designs which tend to be less fun become ugly in the long run in the same way a woman without grace becomes unattractive no matter how much she takes care of her face and figure. Much of the fun and beauty of the game comes with the action, and it can't be appreciated in a static manner.

The result is that I tend to dislike more baroque stuff and prefer simpler structures and texturing that focus on the bigger picture, the layout and item placement, with corresponding lighting to play with that and enhance the atmosphere.

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You have to remember as long as there are crafts of art (paintings, music, architecture, etc), there will be critics. I too would say you should continue making maps, but don't let criticism muddle you to the point it turns you into another TimeOfDeath (who took his toys and ran home because of criticism on his maps, IIRC).

My stuff has recieved positive and negative feedback but that did not make me feel bad, I try to improve over the mistakes made to make a better product.

In all, constructive criticism is good for the artists if you ask me.

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Really ? In that case I would add at most a point to a score of 1 or 2 for talent, effort or aesthetics.


That's not really what I was getting at. Talent and effort are stuff I never reward, for example.

To use an analogy : I don't give a rat's ass about cars, but I can see the difference between a Ferrari and a Fiat Punto.

... It could be a bad analogy. I really don't know much about cars. The point is, quality is quality regardless of the genre. I don't need to like something in order to be able to evaluate it as objectively as possible - if anything, NOT liking something tends to help, as being neutral there's no bias, for or against it.

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What is perfection exactly?

I only recently mustered up the confidence to start making wads, but what I have tried to do so far is stick to what I feel is right for whatever I'm making. I've posted up a bit of my work and have had some decent feedback, some positive, some critical, but all of it has helped me refine my project. Of course, this is only my opinion on it, which doesn't count as I'm the one making it. The real test is D-Day when I post the finished product up on the archives and it gets slated for whatever reason :P

I think it is right that you should make wads that you would want to play yourself, first and foremost. There are always going to be people who dislike your work for whatever reason, but it would be a waste not to share it with the community anyway (possible exception = Terry).

For something to truly be art, it must have no purpose other than itself. A wad's purpose is to entertain.

Remember, meat man's one is poison man's another. Or something.

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Thank goodness the majority of you stayed on topic. I'm quite impressed with the statements from myk, Phml, Mr. Chris, and scalliano. Definitely you guys have good words of wisdom and I thank you for your input into this topic. I also have seen a couple of others that had some good input and I appreciate your participation on this topic as well.

P.S. to geekmarine -- I'm not self absorbed, I'm not asking for positive feedback, I'm asking for respect and consideration. I don't care if people like my wads or not, I want them to still respect my capabilities as an author and to respect me as an individual. In other words, showing some manners. Don't assume I'm looking for positive feed back, I'm looking for people to give me guidance and what direction to rework my creations. (Unfortunately, most prefer to insult me)

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Phml said:
That's not really what I was getting at.

Sure, I was just contrasting my different take or attitude in respect to such WADs.

Talent and effort are stuff I never reward, for example.

Well, I see talent and effort, when combined, materialize as quality under some perspective. I feel that if that effort and talent that produce quality is skewed, from my perspective, it's a waste of time for me and ratings can't thus be high.

Coopersville said:
Because Doom is a perfect game,

This is something that makes me appreciate more levels, not less. (See the reply to Phml below.)

You guys mentioned Knee Deep in the Dead and DOOM II: Hell on Earth. They are like good old wines. The more time passes and we appreciate them, the better they get and the more their subtleties shine. Can't say the same for many newer releases, although a good deal show promise.

Phml said:
A 3 star wad is usually something worth playing.

Indeed. I have given many WADs I wouldn't mind replaying only 3 stars just because they weren't as outstanding as some other excellent stuff that received 4. I think people judge this according to how much they like the game's usual workings in general. If the game in general is good in their opinion, its "average" incarnations are worthwhile. Even "meh" doesn't sound so bad, so if one really likes the game, some sub-par stuff will still be fun to a point.

scalliano said:
Remember, meat man's one is poison man's another. Or something.

Yeah, one man's cash is another man's trash.

4oz said:
I encourage you to continue making wads, but I would prefer that you also try to stay in the loop of knowing what wads are in demand.

That tends to create glossy wannabe junk. It's better to follow one's own design vision, even if it may face rejection or heavy criticism. I'm not advocating one deny criticism, though, but that it should be selectively placed under the wings of one's own objectives.

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