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Graf Zahl
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Can't you just stop it?

Fact is, people can see the difference between 50 and 100 Hz on television or between 60 and 85 Hz on monitors so the maximum of what the eye can perceive under perfect conditions must be well over 60 Hz. 80 sounds about reasonable I'd say.

Old Post 01-07-10 14:22 #
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Maes
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Graf Zahl said:
Can't you just stop it?


Nope, because I'm not a George W. Bush voter and I'm not satisfied with giving and receiving simplistic black and white explanations ;-)

You don't actually see 80 or 65 Hz, but you do perceive them differently due to different timing/optical sampling/filtering that occurs in your eyes and visual cortex.

There's a world of difference between being really able to process information at 200+ fps like the eyes and brain of a common housefly can, and having the sensation that something's "off" when the frame rate is higher than your bandwidth.

It has real-world implications regarding comfort etc. but it does NOT mean that you can actually see at 80 Hz. Poor choice of words, gentlemen, poor choice of words.

Old Post 01-07-10 14:42 #
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Jodwin
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You should already know that Maes is always right.

Even when he isn't.

Old Post 01-07-10 14:45 #
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Maes
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Jodwin said:
You should already know that Maes is always right.

Even when he isn't.




For example, those guys at PC Master didn't know that, and look at their "Doom killers" now.

Old Post 01-07-10 14:48 #
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Kyka
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Aaaaah Maes.

Aren't you glad you aren't that hot headed know-it-all anymore? :P


God Bless You!!

Old Post 01-07-10 14:54 #
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Maes
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Kyka said:
Aaaaah Maes.

Aren't you glad you aren't that hot headed know-it-all anymore? :P



I tried my best to advance to hot-headed know-it-all who-actually-knows-his-shit category ;-)

Old Post 01-07-10 15:19 #
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Graf Zahl
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Maes said:

You don't actually see 80 or 65 Hz, but you do perceive them differently due to different timing/optical sampling/filtering that occurs in your eyes and visual cortex.




Isn't that just splitting hairs? Where's the different between 'perception' and 'seeing' here? The important point is that the brain notices that it's different.

Old Post 01-07-10 16:05 #
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Maes
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Graf Zahl said:



Isn't that just splitting hairs? Where's the different between 'perception' and 'seeing' here? The important point is that the brain notices that it's different.



Yes, but in a non-information rich way. It's more like a visual temporal smoothing: instead of perceiving 24 discrete frames, you feel that there is something in between but you can't actually make out any useful extra information from it. If instead of 24 fixed-time chopped frames (akin to time aliasing) you were shown 24 carefully "betweened" frames, you would have the illusion of a higher framerate too (akin to signal filtering).

Artificially raising the framerate is one way to induce this "smoothing" sensation (much like oversampling in digital systems) but it doesn't actually give you new information: it just helps with time-aliasing effect (I know, there's a lot of signal theory going in there and it might not be everybody's cup of tea). There's a reason why our perception limit was set to an equivalent of 24-25 fps on average, just like hearing is within certain limits, with the occasional "golden ears".

On the converse, a common housefly can actually make sense of the 200+ fps it can perceive (that's why it so hard to swat and it can fly so precisely yet quickly in such small places).

Old Post 01-07-10 17:31 #
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Pirx
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oh dude. i wrote a letter like that to id in 1995. it praised doom and had ideas for maps, weapons and monsters galore. there was even a genealogy of doom species trying to somehow connect those monsters into a coherent picture. guess what, it grew to more than 20 pages. i'm glad i didn't send it.

Old Post 01-08-10 01:01 #
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Super Jamie
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Torr Samaho said:
a genealogy of doom species trying to somehow connect those monsters into a coherent picture

http://www.doomworld.com/pageofdoom...ics/treebig.jpg

Old Post 01-08-10 01:06 #
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Maes
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Torr Samaho said:
a genealogy of doom species trying to somehow connect those monsters into a coherent picture.


Are you sure that those guys didn't steal your ideas? :-)

Old Post 01-08-10 01:20 #
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Philnemba
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Maes said:

Are you sure that those guys didn't steal your ideas? :-)



Sweet! Haven't look at this for years :)

Old Post 01-08-10 01:38 #
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myk
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Maes said:
Anything over 20-24 fps appears ultra-smooth, at least if you have progressive scan.
In DOOM, though, the game clock is consistent with the maximum frame rate, so performance under 35 lowers the game speed, and that is noticeable.

In my opinion a good frame rate is a rate that does not vary and is high enough for the eye and mind to consider smooth. That's why I'm happy to lock it in any DOOM engines that can free it. The 35 limit is low enough to be met under most circumstances, unlike higher rates that may more easily drop. Keeping it always locked in DOOM also leaves you in the habit of seeing 35 as natural in the game environment.

Old Post 01-08-10 03:33 #
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Super Jamie
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myk said:
Keeping it always locked in DOOM also leaves you in the habit of seeing 35 as natural in the game environment.

After playing PrBoom+ with "uncapped framerate" enabled for so long, there's a definite period of adjustment for me when I go back to other ports.

Old Post 01-08-10 03:41 #
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Graf Zahl
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35 fps is a slideshow. But that's coming from someone who can't really perceive a movie's 24 fps as smoothly animated.

Old Post 01-08-10 09:02 #
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Maes
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Graf Zahl said:
can't really perceive a movie's 24 fps as smoothly animated.


Oh wow. Now there are "golden eyes", as well as "golden ears"? I can see you turning into a hi-end video/audio nut, spending some pretty bucks on line doublers/frame interpolators etc. just to watch TV or a rented movie :-p

Old Post 01-08-10 09:06 #
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Graf Zahl
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Nah. These things only make matters worse.

Old Post 01-08-10 10:51 #
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Kagemaru_H
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Back to the rage:

I feel for you, Maes. I constantly argue and fight on other internet forums to defend Doom's honor.

Old Post 01-08-10 23:28 #
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Abyssalstudios1
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Kagemaru_H said:
I constantly argue and fight on other internet forums to defend Doom's honor.


Unfortunately, I often go down fighting when I do this.

Old Post 01-08-10 23:32 #
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Ninjalah
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I stopped trying to understand the FPS arguement a long time ago. TL;SHR (Too long, shouldn't have read). I am going to go get Quake, and compare, seeing as I've never played Quake.

Also, I fucking hate when people shoot Doom down because it doesn't have "the framerate or graphics of Call of Duty!". Makes me mad that gameplay isn't part of their opinion.

Old Post 01-09-10 00:24 #
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Kagemaru_H
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I know, right? It's like gameplay is a very low priority these days and devs only do something like Quake or Deus Ex with advanced graphics engines and release it as a totally different game. The reason Doom, Hexen, and Strife are great games is because they've had significant impact on the FPS genre. I never really understood the hype for Half-Life. Yeah, it's an FPSRPG that offers character interaction, but Strife did it first, and if I need an FPSRPG fix I have System Shock 2, Hexen II, and Deus Ex.

Old Post 01-09-10 01:05 #
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Gez
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Kagemaru_H said:
The reason Doom, Hexen, and Strife are great games is because they've had significant impact on the FPS genre.


Strife is a very obscure game, and obscure games don't have much of an impact; otherwise they wouldn't be obscure.

As far as games that had a strong impact on the FPS genre, the line would be Wolf3D, Doom, Duke Nukem 3D, Quake, Half Life, and you basically stop there. After that, you've got games that have improved physics, graphics, and pseudo-realism; always moving in the same direction. Mostly the FPS now are Half Life clones in their gameplay, with "smart" enemies, a few conversations, sometimes a physics puzzle or two, and cutscene galore.

Old Post 01-09-10 01:53 #
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Kagemaru_H
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Hexen was the first FPS to use classes. Hexen II felt like kind of an improvement to the Hexen formula with a less linear design and a Final Fantasy type level up system. the only redeeming feature Quake has is being the first full 3D FPS, and I wouldn't really put Duke3D there because it felt like a Doom clone with immature, misogynist humor slapped on.

New line:
Wolf3D, Doom, Hexen, Quake, and Half-Life.

Old Post 01-09-10 02:39 #
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Ralphis
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Maes you gotta calm down

Old Post 01-09-10 03:34 #
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HackNeyed
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Nice rant there on the review and I agree with a lot. Still, Doom and many other Doom Clones were pretty dead comparatively for awhile there commercially at least. However, retro-gaming and the user maps and mods gracing Doom and Duke, Quake and... Are a bit of little miracles for games with a solid foundation and equal parts nostalgia.

Or in other words welcome to the choir, Preacher man.

Hmm


Maes said:
You don't actually see 80 or 65 Hz, but you do perceive them differently due to different timing/optical sampling/filtering that occurs in your eyes and visual cortex.

...

Poor choice of words, gentlemen, poor choice of words.



So it has come down to semantics has it? fine, nice lessen in vision theory but what most people need to know today, real world, real time computing/display, actual practical implications and for the foreseeable perceivable industry future means..


Maes said:
What does this mean, practically? That if instead of 60 fps you were shown 24 carefully crafted fps (with processing and time shifts to account for your visions' limited bandwidth) you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Dropping frames like it happens on fixed-frequency media is however a far cry from those "idealized" 24 fps, and putting out 60 fps or more is an easier way to compensate, just like 192 KHz audio can compensate more easily and cheaply for recording/playback artifacts than a $1000000 CD player.


So, 24fps = bad and 60fps+ = good? Yes, I'm glad that's cleard up then. Thank you.


Graf Zahl said:
and even 60 to 85 is clearly perceivable as an improvement. Even though the human eye supposedly cannot see the difference.


Indeed, I used to get headaches after only a short time on an old CRT then I got a new one and the headaches remained until I found it could operate at 85Hz and it solved my headaches and eye strain. Well, it did little for the headaches caused at times by what I was reading.

[Off Topic]

About the Fly seeing perceiving so much faster I mean more faster... err, well, when adrenaline kicks in and time seems to slow down. Isn't it that our perceptions just speed up/increase? That's how I figure Neo worked in the Matrix, he simply perceived faster because he could with less bodily constraints...

[/Off Topic]

Old Post 01-09-10 04:18 #
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GreyGhost
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HackNeyed said:
So it has come down to semantics has it? fine, nice lessen in vision theory but what most people need to know today, real world, real time computing/display, actual practical implications and for the foreseeable perceivable industry future means..
I'd heard some time back that the human brain processes visual information at two points - the first (some 100ms after the event) is a low-detail preview, it's primary purpose appears to be movement detection (probably a survival mechanism) while the second (some 200ms later) adds detail and colour.

Heh - LCD monitors aren't the only visual medium to suffer from input lag.

Old Post 01-09-10 06:32 #
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HackNeyed
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Yeah when you get hungry or tired the movement detection is more prevalent to help you catch some eats or not be eaten respectively.


GreyGhost said:
Heh - LCD monitors aren't the only visual medium to suffer from input lag.


Now what if one were playing Chocolate-Doom on a windows mobile phone in a ship traveling the speed of light?

I don't know but it would be pretty cool what with Chocolate-Doom on your phone...

hmm, better yet I'd like a windows mobile demo viewer since the controls would suck I could still catch up on speed demo happenings.

Old Post 01-09-10 06:57 #
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Vegeta
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According to the laws of Dragon Ball all of you are wrong on the FPS discussion.

Old Post 01-09-10 12:18 #
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DuckReconMajor
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Ninjalah said:
Also, I fucking hate when people shoot Doom down because it doesn't have "the framerate or graphics of Call of Duty!". Makes me mad that gameplay isn't part of their opinion.
The funny thing is that the last 3 Call of Duty games have run at a sub-HD resolution (600p) on PS3 and 360, just to keep the framerate up.

That said, though, I do love Call of Duty.

Old Post 01-09-10 15:01 #
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Super Jamie
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Ninjalah said:
Also, I fucking hate when people shoot Doom down because it doesn't have "the framerate" -snip-

If there's one thing Doom does have, it's framerate. Feel free to run a 150fps timedemo in front of them.

Old Post 01-09-10 15:31 #
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