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bimlanders
Junior Member

Posts: 161
Registered: 06-09

I don't mean to derail this topic, but I have never played through an entire megawad from beginning to finish. While I do encounter individual levels that are excellent, I am almost always put off by the lack of continuity from level to level. There's always a balance issue where there's just too many hard monsters and I run completely out of ammo. I shouldn't have to find every secret room in order to keep my weapons stocked. And this is coming from a player that can use the shotgun for pretty much the entire game, ammo provided. Also, especially in a level pack like TNT, there's always the odd level that requires solving an obscure puzzle to reach the exit. There's also the tendency to make megawads very difficult. I started playing Plutonia 2 and marveling and the level design and new graphics, but by level 3, my jaw is just on the freakin' floor at the difficulty of it. And then I think that there are 27 more levels of this? No thanks.

And in the end, no set of levels will ever compare with Knee Deep in the Dead.

01-07-10 22:15 #

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myk
webbed digits

Posts: 14316
Registered: 04-02

bimlanders said:
I started playing Plutonia 2 and marveling and the level design and new graphics, but by level 3, my jaw is just on the freakin' floor at the difficulty of it.

On what skill level? I hope it wasn't on UV...

Granted, most add-ons are made by DOOM fans that play regularly and consider the original levels relatively easy on UV, so one should expect at least UV to be too hard if one plays the game more casually.

If one has problems, it's recommended to play easier stuff, or to get the habit of using low difficulty settings. There are plenty of PWADs out there that aren't any harder than DOOM or DOOM II. Plutonia 2, of course, is not of this type. It's the sequel of an already brutal level set, pushing what Plutonia delivered to a next level while retaining its style from the authors' perspective.

I moved this to a new thread because, really, it can do little more than derail the recommendations thread.

01-08-10 03:11 #

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Talvi
Mini-Member

Posts: 68
Registered: 10-08

Do you know what skill levels are? There's not only UV in this game.

01-08-10 12:58 #

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vdgg
Moderator

Posts: 794
Registered: 08-07

Actually both Plutonia and Pl2 can be hard on HNTR. For example, Plutonia's MAP21, MAP23 play exactly the same on skill levels 2-4. MAP03 has just one arch-vile as a difference between HNTR and Ultra-Violence.

To recommend something... I often heard people complained about Paul Corfiatis' levels for being too easy. He contributed to 2002ADO, Death Tormention 1,2,3 and WOS, among others. The last two are not trivial, the rest should be way easier than Plutonias. And they are generally highly regarded. Don't expect 2002ADO to be extremely consistent in episodes 2,3,4 though (I love them, I don't care if a TechBase E4M2 transposes into hellish E4M3).

And the notion of "find all the secrets or die" annoys me, too, it's kind of a trend.

Last edited by vdgg on 01-08-10 at 15:19

01-08-10 13:32 #

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myk
webbed digits

Posts: 14316
Registered: 04-02

One notable WAD that isn't very hard is TV's Revolution.

Yes, you read correctly, that's one of the Plutonia 2 authors, but the set is relatively mild yet still fun.

01-08-10 13:46 #

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Rock Lobstah
Warming Up

Posts: 12
Registered: 07-09

bimlanders said:
I don't mean to derail this topic, but I have never played through an entire megawad from beginning to finish. While I do encounter individual levels that are excellent, I am almost always put off by the lack of continuity from level to level. There's always a balance issue where there's just too many hard monsters and I run completely out of ammo. I shouldn't have to find every secret room in order to keep my weapons stocked. And this is coming from a player that can use the shotgun for pretty much the entire game, ammo provided. Also, especially in a level pack like TNT, there's always the odd level that requires solving an obscure puzzle to reach the exit. There's also the tendency to make megawads very difficult. I started playing Plutonia 2 and marveling and the level design and new graphics, but by level 3, my jaw is just on the freakin' floor at the difficulty of it. And then I think that there are 27 more levels of this? No thanks.

And in the end, no set of levels will ever compare with Knee Deep in the Dead.

Try some of the oldie but goldie WADs like Eternal Doom 4, TVR!, Dmonfear, and Requiem. They're not as difficult as the Hell Revealeds, Alien Vendetta, and Plutonia types, but they're still a challenge, have good pacing, and great level design.

Eternal Doom 4: http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/?id=15193
TVR!: http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=11848
Dmonfear: http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=10639
Requiem: http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=8194

Just a note: Where as Eternal Doom can be quite lengthy because its levels are huge, Dmonfear is like the opposite and is short and sweet. All 4 are excellent WADs and rank among my favorites of all-time.

01-08-10 15:04 #

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bimlanders
Junior Member

Posts: 161
Registered: 06-09

I didn't mean to be an attention whore here and I didn't create this topic. This was posted in another thread and a mod moved it and made it its own topic for some reason. Anyways, it just feels wrong to play Doom on anything but UV, as I consider it to be the standard difficulty. All I ask for in the really difficult wads is that I don't run completely out of ammo and there's barons every where, and then all of the sudden a Cyberdemon pops out of nowhere. That's lame.

01-08-10 15:58 #

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Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!

Posts: 6458
Registered: 07-07

Keeping in mind it's of course subjective (but any recommendation is going to be subjective anyway) and that certain types of gameplay are therefore less well represented than others, a good collection of quality mods can be gathered by looking at the Cacowards.

01-08-10 16:07 #

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Graf Zahl
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!

Posts: 6963
Registered: 01-03

bimlanders said:
Anyways, it just feels wrong to play Doom on anything but UV

Sorry to be blunt, but that's just plain idiotic. Different WADs are made for different people. Some are harder, some are easier. I normally decide by doing a quick sampling which difficulty seems to be appropriate. There's lots of stuff out there that's just too hard for the average player on UV. But to have these players enjoy the game, too, there's lower skill levels.

To summarize, if you think that UV is too hard in a mod, play on a lower setting before complaining to the public. ;)

01-08-10 16:52 #

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myk
webbed digits

Posts: 14316
Registered: 04-02

bimlanders said:
Anyways, it just feels wrong to play Doom on anything but UV, as I consider it to be the standard difficulty.

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/845/facepalmmonkey.jpg

It's just a name for a skill setting!

One thing you can legitly complain about is when nothing gives you an idea of how hard each difficulty may be. This may be annoying because you don't know what to choose and are forced to blindly select one skill to start with, which may prove to be too easy or too hard for you. Reading some reviews and comments before playing may help here, though.

As for Plutonia 2, I think we could have been more explicit. I like how Anders Johnsen made it clear for Alien Vendetta in the introduction, especially:

When that's said, AV still holds a somewhat harder skill setting than any serious megawad with the exception of "Hell Revealed" and its sequal. In the tougher maps it will indeed challenge the best players on Ultraviolence, and would probably be more frustrating than fun for the common Doomer. Fortunately we put effort into all levels of difficulty, and would advise anyone who is not looking for hordes of monsters (and the need for planning in order to survive) to play skill 2 or 3. AV skill 3 plays much like "The Plutonia Experiment" does on its skill 4. Skill 2 would be the favourable pick for anyone who wants to have a more relaxed journey through the levels (be warned tho, even on skill 2 AV holds a few surprises =)

Like AV, PL2 does warn the user through the DeHackEd patch at the beginning, although this is read only by Doom and Chocolate Doom, so a note in the text file wouldn't have hurt. Maybe in version 1.1!

01-08-10 19:00 #

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azureace
Mini-Member

Posts: 50
Registered: 11-09

the Lost episodes of doom is rather on par with the original. But i do like the consistency with the levels and the fact that e3m8 takes place on a rather warped version of the mega wads e1m1 maybe you will enjoy this one (its a three episode mega wad so if you use ultimate the name of the 4th episode will actually continue the name field of the third episode.

Last edited by azureace on 01-10-10 at 21:31

01-08-10 21:09 #

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DuckReconMajor
Forum Spammer

Posts: 3557
Registered: 01-09

I'm Too Young To Die

and I am not ashamed

01-08-10 23:46 #

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gemini09
Forum Regular

Posts: 792
Registered: 04-03

myk said:
It's the sequel of an already brutal level set, pushing what Plutonia delivered to a next level

that made zero sense

01-09-10 01:24 #

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kristus
Megablast!

Posts: 9570
Registered: 07-00

Makes perfect sense to me.

01-09-10 02:09 #

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Creaphis
I will deliberately take a contrary position just for the sake of writing incredibly long arguments

Posts: 3953
Registered: 10-05

gemini09 said:

that made zero sense

This is what has me discombobulated.

01-09-10 02:12 #

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bimlanders
Junior Member

Posts: 161
Registered: 06-09

Graf Zahl said:

Sorry to be blunt, but that's just plain idiotic. Different WADs are made for different people. Some are harder, some are easier. I normally decide by doing a quick sampling which difficulty seems to be appropriate. There's lots of stuff out there that's just too hard for the average player on UV. But to have these players enjoy the game, too, there's lower skill levels.

To summarize, if you think that UV is too hard in a mod, play on a lower setting before complaining to the public. ;)

Not enough ammo. That's my complaint 99% of the time. Am I going to fist fuck the cyber demons to death? I don't care what the difficulty level is when there isn't enough ammo. That's lame.

01-09-10 15:19 #

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Jodwin
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Posts: 2556
Registered: 02-05

bimlanders said:
Not enough ammo. That's my complaint 99% of the time. Am I going to fist fuck the cyber demons to death? I don't care what the difficulty level is when there isn't enough ammo. That's lame.

Not shooting at the walls all the time often helps.

01-09-10 15:37 #

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myk
webbed digits

Posts: 14316
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bimlanders said:
Not enough ammo. That's my complaint 99% of the time. Am I going to fist fuck the cyber demons to death? I don't care what the difficulty level is when there isn't enough ammo.

In what WAD? Plutonia 2 certainly has enough ammo on every level in UV, played from scratch. For a competent player that doesn't spam half of it into thin air, that is. If you want some evidence, check this thread.

Fist fucking the cyberdemons is not something people usually do, with the exceptions of Maes (but only against submissive "cybies" that don't fight back,) xit-vono (the international champion of cyberboxing,) and the comic book Doomguy, but you can indeed conserve ammo by punching lesser monsters with the berserk pack or by chopping them down with the chainsaw.

01-09-10 15:44 #

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DuckReconMajor
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Speaking of ammo, whenever I try to conserve it, I never know how much I should rely on infighting, then I overdo it and end up dying. Is learning how to decide something you pick up after playing for a long time?

01-09-10 18:17 #

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Creaphis
I will deliberately take a contrary position just for the sake of writing incredibly long arguments

Posts: 3953
Registered: 10-05

DuckReconMajor said:
Is learning how to decide something you pick up after playing for a long time?

Probably. I rarely make the conscious decision to cause infighting. It's just something I do naturally, when the environment presents the opportunity on a silver platter. It's rare that you have to promote infighting when it's difficult or dangerous to do so - a map with that little ammo might just be poorly balanced.

When I feel that I need to conserve ammo, I'll mostly do it by:
-Meleeing smaller targets (and some larger, easier ones like pain elementals and barons)
-Only using the SSG, never the regular shotgun (more bang for the buck)
-(In conjunction with the above strategy) Using the chaingun in situations where you would normally use the regular shotgun - eg. against imps
-Being precise: snipe far-away monsters by burst firing the chaingun, let monsters stop moving before sending a rocket their way
-Balancing all ammo usage so that all types of ammo stay significantly below their maximum (so that you never waste a box of shells by picking it up when you have 48/50, for example, and also so that you never are forced to leave ammo of one sort behind when you have little ammo left of another type)
-Mostly using rockets against groups of monsters, so that their splash damage can have its full effect - sometimes the best way to spend a rocket is to take out 3 imps with it
-Using rockets against cybers and spiders only when absolutely necessary - this wastes their splash damage entirely
-Using BFG as effectively as possible - one must learn to take advantage of the full cone of damaging rays - being able to 2-hit a cyberdemon is also a plus
-After mancubi have already been hit by three rockets or SSG shots, and after cacodemons have already been hit by two rockets or SSG shots, switching to the chaingun to finish them off.

Last edited by Creaphis on 01-09-10 at 18:49

01-09-10 18:27 #

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Maes
I like big butts!

Posts: 7955
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bimlanders said:

Not enough ammo. That's my complaint 99% of the time.

It's a valid complaint in 99% of Jodwin's maps, too. To his defense, this often occurred during play-testing of certain particular maps of his, only that me being the one helping ironing out bugs/ratting out snakes left some tough scars ;-) What eventually got released to the general public was much milder compared to what I had to endure ;-)

bimlanders said:
Am I going to fist fuck the cyber demons to death?

Leave that to the hor...er....I mean the pros.

01-09-10 18:36 #

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ihateflesh
Warming Up

Posts: 12
Registered: 07-09

Anyways, it just feels wrong to play Doom on anything but UV

For some strange reason, that's how I always played. It doesn't feel right unless you are frustrated and want to murder someone after playing doom!

01-09-10 20:59 #

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HackNeyed
Member

Posts: 380
Registered: 08-04

I often start level sets/megawads on UV so the early levels aren't a bore and switch to HMP when it stops being fun. When I reply a level I'll then switch to UV after I've gotten to know it a bit. Still, it just depends. I like to check on the readme/reputation to see how difficulty compares to other wads/iwads and take my first run through accordingly.

01-09-10 22:21 #

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Abyssalstudios1
Member

Posts: 647
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ihateflesh said:

For some strange reason, that's how I always played. It doesn't feel right unless you are frustrated and want to murder someone after playing doom!

Well, how about some monsters?

I play doom to relax and unwind, personally.

01-09-10 22:24 #

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Mr. Chris
The term is "prehensile"

Posts: 3521
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Brush up on your skills to handle UV.

01-09-10 23:18 #

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Chex Warrior
Junior Member

Posts: 195
Registered: 03-08

Myk is correct, consider playing Revolution (a great megawad) or DemonFear (another great one). There are tons of non-brutal megawads out there.

If you play enough you will get better!

01-09-10 23:56 #

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Woolie Wool
Member

Posts: 566
Registered: 08-02

What's so facepalm about it? The guy wants wads that are easier than the likes of Alien Vendetta or Kama Sutra. Does mocking him for it make your penis feel larger or something?

OP: Try the Darkening episodes. They're really good.

01-10-10 04:38 #

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HackNeyed
Member

Posts: 380
Registered: 08-04

Woolie Wool said:
What's so facepalm about it? The guy wants wads that are easier than the likes of Alien Vendetta or Kama Sutra.

I think the point is that there are easier wads then Alien Vendetta played on 'Ultra-Violence'...

Among others they are called Alien Vendetta played on 'Hurt me plenty' or 'Hey, not too rough' difficulty settings. The OP seems unwilling to play a great wad at a more reasonable/introductory setting only to deprive themselves of a great experience for some seemingly macho bull reason.

Well, that's my take on the facepalms anyway, I mean whatever reason is ok with me since I still get to enjoy the wads by working my way up and hopefully learning and improving for the next wad on Ultra-Violence.

01-10-10 06:18 #

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myk
webbed digits

Posts: 14316
Registered: 04-02

Woolie Wool said:
What's so facepalm about it? The guy wants wads that are easier than the likes of Alien Vendetta or Kama Sutra. Does mocking him for it make your penis feel larger or something?

Maybe you meant Deeforce, although I think he was just spamming bullshit for postcount purposes or to troll. I had to delete a slew of nonsense posts by him, already. Personally, I facepalmed only at sticking to UV ceremoniously, as HackNeyed noted, not at wanting easier WADs.

01-10-10 09:06 #

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