Baron of Hell
Register | User Profile | Member List | F.A.Q | Privacy Policy | New Blog | Search Forums | Forums Home
Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Classic Doom > Doom General > Copyright in Doom TCs
 
Author
All times are GMT. The time now is 17:48. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
Viewtiful-Chris
Banned


Posts: 172
Registered: 12-09


You guys seem to be pretty hard up on copyright-infringement violations (as I just viewed in the "how do I put mp3's in wads) thread and other intellectual property breaches, but something mystifies me.

DOOM 64: The Absolution TC (fairly popular work around here) has been quoted by the author as "for those who don't have Nintendo 64 systems". Isn't that blatant theft? Don't get me wrong, I happen to love file-sharing, but I detect a bit of hypocrisy here.

And of course, all those famous, award-winning .WADs (CIF3, for instance) which stole textures / sounds / graphics etc. from other FPS games.

Where's the line drawn here?

Old Post 02-25-10 03:49 #
Viewtiful-Chris is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Creaphis
I will deliberately take a contrary position just for the sake of writing incredibly long arguments


Posts: 3953
Registered: 10-05


Most of us follow an informal moral code in which copyright infringement is allowable if done as a small part of producing a larger work. If a given project is almost entirely new work, with its own goals and its own artistic direction, then if some resources are "borrowed" to serve the ends of this project then this will probably be forgiven. If, however, a project steals more resources than its artistry can justify the scales tip against it and it is frowned upon.

That's not to say that everyone here is accepting of any copyright infringement, nor is it to say that those who are not accepting of it should be more accepting.

Note also that Kaiser has repentantly released Doom64ex - a port for the purpose of playing Doom 64 on your PC, which can be distributed perfectly legally. (The player still has to break the law by downloaded a Doom 64 .rom somewhere else, but that's not Kaiser's problem.)

Old Post 02-25-10 04:17 #
Creaphis is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
phi108
Member


Posts: 498
Registered: 03-08



Creaphis said:
(The player still has to break the law by downloaded a Doom 64 .rom somewhere else, but that's not Kaiser's problem.)


Correction, the player has to rip the .rom from their Doom64 cartridge themself, with their own ripping hardware. Don't you know that's how everyone runs their old games through emulators nowadays? 8D

And didn't Doom64 Absolution get "approved" by the makers of Doom64? Kaiser even interviewed them about Doom64, I think.

Old Post 02-25-10 04:33 #
phi108 is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Viewtiful-Chris
Banned


Posts: 172
Registered: 12-09



And didn't Doom64 Absolution get "approved" by the makers of Doom64?


Really?

Well holy shit wouldn't it then technically be freeware?

I've been having a great time with DOOM 64 both emulated in P64 and in Absolution, although one of my computers doesn't like Doomsday and crashes on startup.

And I wonder if id Software will ever be awesome enough to release all the DOOM engine games as freeware, though that's kinda off-topic. I mean, look at Bethesda. They liberated Elder Scrolls 1 & 2 and all the better for them.

Old Post 02-25-10 04:37 #
Viewtiful-Chris is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
eargosedown
Forum Regular


Posts: 733
Registered: 12-04



Viewtiful-Chris said:
And I wonder if id Software will ever be awesome enough to release all the DOOM engine games as freeware


Doubtful, as there's no real need for them to be freeware anyways considering the way PWADs work. I think they also still get a nice penny from Doom/Doom2 sales, enough that freewaring it would be harmful to their profits.

Old Post 02-25-10 05:31 #
eargosedown is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
phi108
Member


Posts: 498
Registered: 03-08


Indeed, I'm guessing that Bungie made the Marathon games freeware because most current fans are windows users, who can't use old Mac games. But then there is the new Marathon engine AlephOne that works on windows, so there goes that theory. EDIT: Oh, and the old marathon games are for sale on Xbox live... But I guess what customers are buying there are the upgraded sprites and stuff.

But yeah, ID makes big bucks from IWAD sales from their store, Steam, Iphone version, Xbox Arcade version, etc. Maybe in 10 years they'll make it freeware...

Old Post 02-25-10 14:06 #
phi108 is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!


Posts: 6458
Registered: 07-07



phi108 said:
But yeah, ID makes big bucks from IWAD sales from their store, Steam, Iphone version, Xbox Arcade version, etc. Maybe in 10 years they'll make it freeware...

Not sure the buck is that big. It's certainly a revenue stream that they have no reason to cut off, but it's not going to pay them new Ferraris anymore.

Old Post 02-25-10 14:22 #
Gez is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Kaiser
Doom64 Guru


Posts: 2632
Registered: 08-00


Why am I mentioned every time the subject 'copyright-infringement' is brought up?


Creaphis said:
(The player still has to break the law by downloaded a Doom 64 .rom somewhere else, but that's not Kaiser's problem.)


There's plenty of ways to obtain a rom legally. You can either purchase the rom from a trusted source (if such a thing exist) OR use a utility (such as Doctor V64) to extract a rom from a cartridge which was what Aaron Seeler once explained to me eons ago.

Old Post 02-25-10 20:14 #
Kaiser is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!


Posts: 6458
Registered: 07-07



Viewtiful-Chris said:
And I wonder if id Software will ever be awesome enough to release all the DOOM engine games as freeware, though that's kinda off-topic. I mean, look at Bethesda. They liberated Elder Scrolls 1 & 2 and all the better for them.


Arena and Daggerfall are not freewares. They're freebies. Not the same thing. As the copyright holder, Bethesda is perfectly in its right to distribute it freely. However, they never gave you the right to redistribute. If for some reason they decided to stop offering these two games for free downloads, any "mirror" still providing them would be warez.

Old Post 02-25-10 20:20 #
Gez is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Splatter
Mini-Member


Posts: 91
Registered: 12-05



Viewtiful-Chris said:
DOOM 64: The Absolution TC (fairly popular work around here) has been quoted by the author as "for those who don't have Nintendo 64 systems". Isn't that blatant theft?


How much paint do you have to huff to think it's any kind of theft? Theft is taking without consent; the owner is deprived of his property forever while the thief does as he pleases with it. Something that doesn't physically exist can never be the target of theft. I'm sure at least a few people have stolen Doom 2 discs, but no one has ever stolen DOOM2.WAD.

Doom64EX obsoletes any complaints about copyright infringement as well. It's up to the user to provide the resources, just like with any Doom source port.


Viewtiful-Chris said:
Well holy shit wouldn't it then technically be freeware?


The people who worked on Doom 64 don't own the rights to Doom 64.

Old Post 02-25-10 22:07 #
Splatter is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!


Posts: 6458
Registered: 07-07



Splatter said:
How much paint do you have to huff to think it's any kind of theft?

Yes, it is not theft or piracy, but simple counterfeit. This doesn't make it more legal, or that much more easily justifiable.

Old Post 02-25-10 22:29 #
Gez is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Splatter
Mini-Member


Posts: 91
Registered: 12-05


It's not counterfeit either, unless the person is reproducing what he downloaded and selling it as authentic. There's no reason to call infringement anything other than infringement.

I understand why record companies and the like try to equate it with stealing/counterfeiting/genocide, though; they want to provoke an emotional response that people simply don't feel about downloading songs & games. Not all illegal activities are equally bad, which is why there are different punishments for them, ranging from "death penalty" for war crimes to "none" for listening to Rick Astley on YouTube. On the scale of badosity, piracy is worse than theft is worse than counterfeiting is worse than prank calling is worse than littering is worse than infringement.

Old Post 02-26-10 14:05 #
Splatter is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
fraggle
Super Moderator


Posts: 5904
Registered: 07-00


Please set meaningful names for your thread titles. Thanks.

Old Post 02-26-10 16:02 #
fraggle is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Creaphis
I will deliberately take a contrary position just for the sake of writing incredibly long arguments


Posts: 3953
Registered: 10-05


Maybe the attempt by record companies to equate infringement with crimes against humanity is actually an attempt to return to our cultural moral roots. I believe that in some traditional moral interpretations of the Christian old testament's ten commandments, to break any commandment is equally sinful, so, if you say "God damn it" you may as well have just killed someone.

Old Post 02-26-10 20:17 #
Creaphis is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Abyssalstudios1
Member


Posts: 647
Registered: 06-09


Except in Doom. I'm not a mass-murderer, I'm a mass self-defender. There's a difference.

Old Post 02-26-10 20:21 #
Abyssalstudios1 is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Quasar
Moderator


Posts: 4484
Registered: 08-00


Personally I think that copyright is an outdated notion that is now only used to perpetuate corporate monopolies and trusts and should thus be abolished, or, at the least, returned to the state in which the founders left it :)

Old Post 02-26-10 20:51 #
Quasar is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!


Posts: 6458
Registered: 07-07


I think the length of copyright should be reduced. Especially for software; where presumably anything that remains closed source will entirely disappear forever before its copyright expires. 30 years after publication seems more than enough for software; by that time it's utterly obsolesced anyway.

You know what, I think countries should maintain a national library for software, like they do for books. If you want for your copyright to be valid in that country, you'd have to give a copy of the source code to that institution. Which would do nothing with it, just sit on it until the copyright expires and then make it accessible to the public.

Old Post 02-26-10 21:07 #
Gez is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Creaphis
I will deliberately take a contrary position just for the sake of writing incredibly long arguments


Posts: 3953
Registered: 10-05



Gez said:
You know what, I think countries should maintain a national library for software, like they do for books. If you want for your copyright to be valid in that country, you'd have to give a copy of the source code to that institution. Which would do nothing with it, just sit on it until the copyright expires and then make it accessible to the public.


That's a really good idea.

Old Post 02-26-10 21:22 #
Creaphis is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
phi108
Member


Posts: 498
Registered: 03-08




Gez said:
You know what, I think countries should maintain a national library for software, like they do for books. If you want for your copyright to be valid in that country, you'd have to give a copy of the source code to that institution. Which would do nothing with it, just sit on it until the copyright expires and then make it accessible to the public.
Creaphis said:


That's a really good idea.



Seconded. One of the best ideas for software I have ever heard. It should be made an international law, "Gez's Law". I expect plenty of entities would be resistant to it, though, despite the huge advantages it would have.

Old Post 02-27-10 00:43 #
phi108 is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
kristus
Megablast!


Posts: 9570
Registered: 07-00


Actually, we got a "one issue party" in Sweden that suggested if not the same thing, at least something similar for Sweden a few years ago. They're actually called the "Pirate party".

Old Post 02-27-10 00:55 #
kristus is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!


Posts: 6458
Registered: 07-07


This wouldn't be about software piracy, but about preserving works. The software industry is full of short-lived companies and lost source code. It's just an extension of legal deposit.

Old Post 02-27-10 01:14 #
Gez is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
scalliano
Member


Posts: 627
Registered: 08-09



Kaiser said:
There's plenty of ways to obtain a rom legally. You can either purchase the rom from a trusted source (if such a thing exist) OR use a utility (such as Doctor V64) to extract a rom from a cartridge which was what Aaron Seeler once explained to me eons ago.


Aaron Seeler of course being the lead programmer on PSXDoom and Doom64. This in itself speaks volumes to me.

Also, I can think of at least one other modder who is probably more guilty of such infractions...

Old Post 02-27-10 02:35 #
scalliano is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
sgtcrispy
Member


Posts: 664
Registered: 06-00



Quasar said:
Personally I think that copyright is an outdated notion that is now only used to perpetuate corporate monopolies and trusts and should thus be abolished, or, at the least, returned to the state in which the founders left it :)


Hear Hear.

/me pats his Doom64 cart

Old Post 02-27-10 03:33 #
sgtcrispy is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Kagemaru_H
Banned


Posts: 422
Registered: 09-09



kristus said:
Actually, we got a "one issue party" in Sweden that suggested if not the same thing, at least something similar for Sweden a few years ago. They're actually called the "Pirate party".


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLsJyfN0ICU

Just had to be done.

Old Post 02-27-10 04:28 #
Kagemaru_H is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
myk
webbed digits


Posts: 14316
Registered: 04-02



Viewtiful-Chris said:
Where's the line drawn here?
One principle is that is rather consistently respected is that one should never use something done by someone within the add-on community without permission. This may seem clannish, but we're peers and have to deal with each other more or less directly, while companies supposedly have their lawyers if they wish to send a cease and desist letter (which has happened on a couple of occasions and will be respected.) Another factor is that creativity and true work, such as by making your own layouts and artwork or working with other community members to cover what you can't do, tends to earn more respect than piddling with bits and pieces found in the back yard.


Quasar said:
Personally I think that copyright is an outdated notion that is now only used to perpetuate corporate monopolies and trusts and should thus be abolished, or, at the least, returned to the state in which the founders left it :)
That doesn't really apply to our community. Just because copyright is used that way, especially when big companies and their million dollar lawyers are involved, doesn't mean it's the only role it plays.

Old Post 02-28-10 10:39 #
myk is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
All times are GMT. The time now is 17:48. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
 
Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Classic Doom > Doom General > Copyright in Doom TCs

Show Printable Version | Email this Page | Subscribe to this Thread

 

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are OFF
[IMG] code is ON
 

< Contact Us - Doomworld >

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.5
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Forums Directory