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Sig-ma
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Xeros612 said:

So anyone who doesn't like doom's levels sometimes being too abstract to even remotely resemble what the map name suggests they are just don't have a strong enough imagination. Sorry, my bullshit meter's going off.



What Vordakk said. :)

I am not arguing many levels (especially in Doom 2) weren't a little out-there but on the other hand, what should a level named "Gotcha!" look like? What about "The Focus?" "The Living End?"

What I said relates more to narrative and story. When you look at Fallout for example, it is a lot more immersive when you wander out, explore and do whatever (at least for me). There is obviously a bunch of dialog and context for doing missions but because you play yourself (a faceless character), it is impossible for the developer to really motivate every player to put the same amount of emphasis on different tasks or create priorities. Role-playing games work the way they do because they give you choices (or the illusion of choice) and let you do whatever you want within the environments provided. While Doom is not technically a role-playing game, it essentially has the same building blocks for one, however rudimentary and it is fairly easy to become immersed if you have a decent imagination.

When it comes to the level design of Doom itself, sure... it probably is antiquated in some ways but it still holds its own. There are amazing levels and there are shit levels. What will leave a more lasting impression on your average player: Toxin Refinery (E1M3) from Doom or Infiltration (Interval 03 - Escalation) of F.E.A.R. (an arguably realistic game)? Even stripping away the bias of most of us being Doom fans, I'm sure the average person will still say Toxin Refinery. Does it really matter at that point that Toxin Refinery doesn't look like much of a refinery?

If you want to make the argument that the exploration aspect of Doom, complete with its switch and key hunting is what is antiquated, then what does that say about a game such as Doom 3, a relatively modern game? I believe that is the argument being made. Is the expectation such that every level is expected to be a linear corridor broken up with cut-scenes or scripted explosions?

Last edited by Sig-ma on 09-26-11 at 07:53

Old Post 09-26-11 07:31 #
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Phobus
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Sig-ma said:
I am not arguing many levels (especially in Doom 2) weren't a little out-there but on the other hand, what should a level named "Gotcha!" look like? What about "The Focus?" "The Living End?"

See, I'd exempt levels like that from the scrutiny I put The Suburbs under simply because the names don't implicate much in the way of an environment (Although MAP29 being a kind of abyssal hell certainly is a good use of the name).

Old Post 09-26-11 10:55 #
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DeathevokatioN
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To me suburbs represented actual suburbs through it's layout, and besides this is at the point where earth is slowly decaying into a bastion of hell so ofcourse shit is going to start looking surreal. :)

I don't intend to sound disrespectful but this is starting to become like the religion thread going on where everyone points to the weakest level of a mapset to try discredit the whole mapset. You still have to take into account Romero's masterpieces, Map11, Map29, Sandy's "Spirit World", and his "Monster Condo", as well as the first few levels by American Mcgee that were excellently designed and had compact layouts.

[edited due to bad grammer]

Last edited by DeathevokatioN on 09-26-11 at 13:19

Old Post 09-26-11 11:52 #
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Encryptic
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Phobus said:

See, I'd exempt levels like that from the scrutiny I put The Suburbs under simply because the names don't implicate much in the way of an environment (Although MAP29 being a kind of abyssal hell certainly is a good use of the name).



Clearly you've never lived in a suburb and known the soul-crushing terror of uniform blandness in the perfectly detailed tract home communities with names like "Oak Villas" and "Silverbrook Park"*. This, my friend...is truly...Hell On Earth.



*renamed to Erebus Villas and Bloodspring Park after a change in management recently. We apologize for any confusion to our residents.

Old Post 09-26-11 15:16 #
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40oz
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I'm with Deathevokation. You start in a house, theres a house next door, then there are plains and mountains of ash and caves, and some desolate hell instilled buildings dotted around the outside. Some structures that can't be explained realistically were probably added for gameplay factors. Imagine how lame the start of the level would be if the mancubus, the revenants, and archviles in thouse outside caves could already see you as soon as you left the first building. You wouldn't even need to look for the yellow key and probably wouldn't even bother to look for the super shotgun in the house next door at the start of the level if you knew all that unexplored area was around you. Some walls and big boulders of ash hide some health and ammo items and stuff. I know they look like pillars of ash but some parts of the map showed the sky being much lower at some points, i don't believe those ash pillars were supposed to look as tall as they are.

Old Post 09-26-11 17:08 #
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Encryptic
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40oz said:
I'm with Deathevokation. You start in a house, theres a house next door, then there are plains and mountains of ash and caves, and some desolate hell instilled buildings dotted around the outside. Some structures that can't be explained realistically were probably added for gameplay factors. Imagine how lame the start of the level would be if the mancubus, the revenants, and archviles in thouse outside caves could already see you as soon as you left the first building. You wouldn't even need to look for the yellow key and probably wouldn't even bother to look for the super shotgun in the house next door at the start of the level if you knew all that unexplored area was around you. Some walls and big boulders of ash hide some health and ammo items and stuff. I know they look like pillars of ash but some parts of the map showed the sky being much lower at some points, i don't believe those ash pillars were supposed to look as tall as they are.


Ironically, those buildings still fail to hide you completely. It took me the longest time to figure out why I kept getting attacked by a cacodemon after I came out of that building that has the revenant guarding the staircase.

There's a cacodemon in one of those caves that has line of sight to the staircase so as soon as you hit the stairs, it sees you and starts heading over there. I just happened to figure it out one time when I looked in that direction and saw the cacodemon activate and start moving from the cave.

Old Post 09-26-11 17:22 #
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Sig-ma
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DeathevokatioN said:
To me suburbs represented actual suburbs through it's layout, and besides this is at the point where earth is slowly decaying into a bastion of hell so ofcourse shit is going to start looking surreal. :)



I liked the building with the bodies stacked floor to ceiling immediately behind every door you open, personally. I'm glad id Software felt the need to explain why there were no people around.

Old Post 09-26-11 17:48 #
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valkiriforce
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Doom II's level design is perfection.

Old Post 09-26-11 18:13 #
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DeathevokatioN
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Sig-ma said:


I liked the building with the bodies stacked floor to ceiling immediately behind every door you open, personally. I'm glad id Software felt the need to explain why there were no people around.

Yeah, that was one of the scenes that stuck with me ever since I was a kid. Doom 2's level design gave me nightmares when I was young. :)

Old Post 09-26-11 18:16 #
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Face23785
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Maybe I'm an idiot but I don't much see the difference between coming across a locked door with blue trim and then going searching for a blue key to unlock it and being given the objective to disable a SAM site so that aircraft can bomb a target. Either way you have to complete an objective to advance in the level.

Someone mentioned highlighting switches which remove obstacles so that when you get to the obstacle you don't have to backtrack... What the fuck is the point of that? Just have no obstacle and no switch. The point of obstacles and switches is so that you come across the obstacle and go find a way to either get around it or remove it. If the map plays out so that you come across the switch before you reach the obstacle, the obstacle is just a waste of programming time.

Old Post 09-27-11 03:22 #
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Megamur
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Face23785 said:
Maybe I'm an idiot but I don't much see the difference between coming across a locked door with blue trim and then going searching for a blue key to unlock it and being given the objective to disable a SAM site so that aircraft can bomb a target. Either way you have to complete an objective to advance in the level.


Thank you. Whether you're completing a mission objective or obtaining a power-up that lets you reach an area you couldn't get to before, it's all just dressed-up variations of finding a key for a door.

Old Post 09-27-11 03:43 #
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esselfortium
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Face23785 said:
Maybe I'm an idiot but I don't much see the difference between coming across a locked door with blue trim and then going searching for a blue key to unlock it and being given the objective to disable a SAM site so that aircraft can bomb a target. Either way you have to complete an objective to advance in the level.

Someone mentioned highlighting switches which remove obstacles so that when you get to the obstacle you don't have to backtrack... What the fuck is the point of that? Just have no obstacle and no switch. The point of obstacles and switches is so that you come across the obstacle and go find a way to either get around it or remove it. If the map plays out so that you come across the switch before you reach the obstacle, the obstacle is just a waste of programming time.


Uhhhh..... it's perfectly possible and rather common for a well-designed layout to loop back upon itself so that the player naturally and easily returns to the obstacle after clearing it, with little to no backtracking being done.

Obviously setting up a level so that players are likely to clear an obstacle before they even encounter it is poor design, but that isn't really what's being discussed here, I don't think. I don't think a requirement of interesting level design is having to regularly spend several minutes stumbling backwards through areas you've already played just to find your way back to whatever obstacle the switch you just pressed may or may not have unlocked.

Old Post 09-27-11 03:48 #
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Captain Red
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DeathevokatioN said:
What makes Doom 2 so special that you'd want to modify it to your standards when there are already a ton of user made mapsets that probably are? Is it because it's an official ID release?


Becasue I like many of Doom IIs maps, but think they'd be even better with some context given to them. What can I say? I'm an absolute sucker for atmosphere in games. I guess Sig-ma's point about imagination has some merit, becasue when I play Doom 2 I see the foundations for some exciting setting I wouldn't mind wondering around in killing demons in my minds eye.

I'm genuinely puzzled as to why that seems to be offensive idea to you.

Old Post 09-27-11 10:35 #
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DeathevokatioN
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Captain Red said:


Becasue I like many of Doom IIs maps, but think they'd be even better with some context given to them. What can I say? I'm an absolute sucker for atmosphere in games. I guess Sig-ma's point about imagination has some merit, becasue when I play Doom 2 I see the foundations for some exciting setting I wouldn't mind wondering around in killing demons in my minds eye.

I'm genuinely puzzled as to why that seems to be offensive idea to you.

I read you as someone just coming in here to berate everyone who still loves Doom while at the same time trying to make a controversial project announcements threatening to take apart our sacred cow. Sorry about that. ;-)

I'm also a sucker for atmosphere in games and as a fan of Lovecraft's abstract work I also find a lot of atmosphere in Doom 2's deformed and abstract levels which don't make sense on a logical level yet set a nice and desolate mood for killing demons. It's Doom 2's atmosphere that was part of what drew me in.


If a team were to ever remake Doom 2 I'd prefer they started it from scratch though, and make each level based on it's Doom 2 counterpart but rework the layout to be different enough that the maps each feel like a new adventure but through the same updated theme as opposed to just adding a extra details, reworking thing placement a bit which IMO would be pretty much redundant, anyone with a year's mapping experience can do that.

If I'm not mistaken the team who's behind The Shores of Zdoom is doing things differently this time around and that project is coming along quite well, from the looks of it atleast.

Last edited by DeathevokatioN on 09-27-11 at 13:37

Old Post 09-27-11 11:52 #
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NiuHaka
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Hypothetical question:
So, if all the modern games don't have any real map design... wouldn't that mean that good map design is antiquated?

Old Post 09-27-11 18:06 #
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Phobus
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In effect... yes.

Old Post 09-27-11 18:57 #
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Vordakk
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Could it be that game designers of the past knew that the graphics they were working with were abstract and unrealistic, so to compensate for this they worked extra hard to make the level design, gameplay, and fun factor as good as they could? I could be wrong, but that's what I always thought.

Old Post 09-27-11 20:01 #
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NiuHaka
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Vordakk said:
Could it be that game designers of the past knew that the graphics they were working with were abstract and unrealistic, so to compensate for this they worked extra hard to make the level design, gameplay, and fun factor as good as they could? I could be wrong, but that's what I always thought.

Personally I think that there are other factors that have changed the way game "levels" are created. The main one would be story and action. I think that games get better reviews if there is no chance that the gameplay will slow down and getting lost in a map can drive some people crazy. A good example would be Mass Effect where you basically run in a strait line. The maps are boring but the gameplay itself does not suffer because the fast passing and story driven plot makes it extremely exhilarating. I guarantee that this is the standpoint that the viewer approached Doom. I think it is safe to say that good maps are an antique feature in video games.

Old Post 09-27-11 20:28 #
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_bruce_
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Halflife 2 had very good map design and is a "modern" game.
There were many moments were it was really cool to get to a certain location or have another look at one and find something... even if it's just looking at a place from a different perspective.

I really disliked Valve and esp. Half life for it's artwork, main "hero" and some trends they ignited.
But after enjoying some of their work I have huge respect.

They are still too geeky and flabby for me but their success is understandable.

Old Post 09-27-11 21:43 #
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DuckReconMajor
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Captain Red said:
I'm not really interested in having a dick wave about how good I am at old video games son, but There are people who post on these very forums and have done so for YEARS who admit that they've never actually finished Doom II without no clipping. You know why? Because the maps become cluster fucks of adventure game logic to get to the end of. Remember "The Living End (map29)"? you actually had to find a hidden door to finish that god damn map.

How about in Final Doom Plutiona "Impossible Mission (map22)"? You had to push a button to raise a platform to shoot some walls with demon faces on them to open a door someplace. The only clue was the button raised a platform. A puzzle like that had never come up before, nor was used since. It took me and my brother hours to work it out. A stupid puzzle out of absolutely nowhere.

While I don't think Doom would be improved with CoD like linear levels, It could learn a few things from modern video game design.

I agree with you.

The map28 shoot door sucks and I was very close to giving up and looking up how to get out of there. I started wallhumping and shooting everything almost as a joke and when the door opened my mouth was agape wondering if they really released the map like this. I like Sandy's maps but about right then I would have punched him.

Honestly when talking about having fun when you've spent hours trying to solve something I can agree. I loved trying to figure out puzzles in Zelda. You look at everything and think (sometimes for hours) and when you've finally got it you feel like you've used your intuition to solve a problem and it's gratifying.

On the other hand, some Doom levels it's more like OOPS I FORGOT TO HUMP THAT STRETCH OF WALL. Not what I consider gratifying.

Also I've said this before but I'll say it again. The abstractness of the levels doesn't bother me. Some of them are just ugly. Do I care that Suburbs doesn't look like suburbs? Not really. But when the level comes up I'm just struck by how bad it looks. I don't even want to keep playing at that point. And if something is making me not want to go on, it should be scary monsters, not ugly environments.

Old Post 10-15-11 05:41 #
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b0rsuk
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I like DooM II maps a lot. I like exploration. I dislike DooM III maps because they're so linear. DooM II is actually very good in this department. It has a lot of landmarks, and levels are fairly easy to memorize with small practice. Now DooM 1 can be a nightmare, because it has so many featureless areas. Hexen has very confusing map design. DooM II is just great.

That reviewer is just close/minded. You could ask him to make a graph where Y axis would be game quality and X axis would be time. He would draw a straight line. Or at the very least, he would draw an increasing function without a second thought.

I finished Ultima 3 Exodus recently. It has actual 3D dungeons, imagine that ! And not 3D in the sense "monster looks different from different sides" (monsters are not visible in dungeons, they just ambush you). 3D as in "there can be multiple ladders on a level". You don't finish a level and go to the next one. It is possible in some cases, but in many you go back and forth between levels.
And Ultima 3 designers had the nerve to leave notes like "Map well!". Imagine that ! Player not only supposed to be good at orienteering, but to be able to create maps. A lost art. No minimap, no automap. Many dungeon levels in U3 have "strange wind" squares which extinguish your torch.

Old Post 10-15-11 06:21 #
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hex11
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Some of the maps may look a bit dated/abstract nowadays, but back in '95 I couldn't stop playing Doom II. I can't think of even one time when I ever thought "this architecture is lame" or anything along those lines (ooh, misaligned textures here, wtf!??)

I wonder if these people's taste changed over time, or maybe they just discovered the game many years later (after experiencing newer FPS).

Old Post 10-15-11 06:26 #
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b0rsuk
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DooM II maps do look quite abstract, but I don't mind. They're very varied and that counts for me. I value gameplay the most.

There is a game which has both very good gameplay and has levels that match their names. I'm talking about Heretic. Hexen levels look even better, but they are terrible to play. Really, Hexen is probably the first linear and heavily scripted FPS. In a way it also has a lot of cutscenes - there are many scripted sequences which force you to wait.

Old Post 10-15-11 06:43 #
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