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Spinesplitter
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Which concerns you more when you run into it unexpectedly on a single player map? The Cyberdemon or the Spidermasterind? I tend to be more worried about the Spidermastermind because of the fact that it uses a hit scan attack that is very very very hard to dodge, almost impossible, and at times it can kill you faster. And it can seem to hit you where ever you are. I mean at least the Cyberdemon's rockets are bigger and you can see them coming and dodge them.
Old Post 10-18-11 02:47 #
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Daiyu_Xiaoxiang
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Cyberdemon for me, because his rockets can gives me huge damage and terror as well as stress. I don't afraid of the Spider Mastermind much since his attack is just like the chaingunnie's one.
Old Post 10-18-11 03:04 #
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jdagenet
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Well for me it kinda depends on what the room is shaped like, if it's wide and open, the Spidermastermind but if it is close quarters, the Cyberdemon. So my answer is the Spidermastermind on a daily basis.
Old Post 10-18-11 03:58 #
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Rambosee
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I say Cyberdemon.
Way more dangerous.

Example: Playing a slaughter invasion map pack online with a couple of other people on skulltag. When the cyberdemon wave comes, we all had huge problems with them. When the spider wave came, it was a cake walk.

I think a good reason why cyberdemon is more dangerous is because if there's 2 or more of them, they can't cause infighting between each other. However, spider masterminds can, making it much easier to kill them.
Old Post 10-18-11 04:03 #
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Sergeant_Mark_IV
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A Mastermind can only be a real threat if the player still didn't found the BFG, otherwise, even a Baron of Hell scares me more than the spider.
Old Post 10-18-11 04:31 #
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Mithran Denizen
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It depends largely on the available equipment and on monster placement, I'd say.

Unless you're fighting in very restricted quarters, it's possible to dodge a cyberdemon's attacks and avoid taking damage indefinitely. With the spider, you either have to lock it into a pain state or take cover to reliably avoid the hitscans for any extended period. That's mostly irrelevant if you can just run up and BFG the spiderdemon, but if it's shooting at you from too far away to make proper use of the BFG, or if you only have a rocket launcher or whatever, it can make a big difference.

The cyberdemon's attack is more avoidable, but can often end you in a single shot if you fuck up, rather than gradually (but unavoidably) chipping away at your health. Similarly, a blur sphere provides valuable protection against a spiderdemon's attack, but it actually makes the cyberdemon's rockets harder to dodge.

In most "typical" cases, though, I'd be less concerned about facing a spider, since they're weaker and more easily provoked into infighting. I can't recall seeing many maps that use them in situations which play upon their strengths, either.
Old Post 10-18-11 05:12 #
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Marnetmar
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Cyberdemon if you're in areas with limited movement, Spider Mastermind if you're in a more open area and don't have a BFG.
Old Post 10-18-11 05:22 #
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Xaser
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I think Mithran sums it up quite well. Still, Cybies I'd think are much more dangerous on the whole, given their higher HP, smaller hitbox, and more devastating (when it connects) attack.
Old Post 10-18-11 05:58 #
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vinnie245
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Cyberdemon by a mile, almost all weapons are effective against the mastermind and the chaingun/plasma gun combo can pretty much stop it from ever attacking back, only the plasma gun/BFG are effective against Cybie, not to mention hes a lot harder to hit in general.
Old Post 10-18-11 06:07 #
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Lüt
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Cyberdemon, though effective map layout and monster placement can sometimes make the Spider into a similar threat.
Old Post 10-18-11 06:38 #
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DoomGater
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Spider Mastermind, because you cannot dodge his projectiles.
Old Post 10-18-11 07:41 #
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printz
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If the terrain is a wide open space with no dangerous (for it) melee monsters, then the spiderdemon becomes a viable threat. Otherwise, and especially like Daiyu_Xiaoxiang said, Cyberdemons are both a physical AND psychological threat. In my opinion, spiderdemons should never be placed where the player is expected to have cell ammo, or among groups of monsters capable enough to overrun it. The spiderdemon is best left alone or helped by few (but annoying) monsters, in a terrain that's unfavourable for the player.

This being said, making a Doom 1 megawad with a climactic confrontation with the spider mastermind at the end, maybe even twice (both episodes), is a great feat. The monster will never last too long (3000 HP is little) but may deliver a decent struggle if the player is kept at 10% health.
Old Post 10-18-11 09:52 #
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Maes
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Daiyu_Xiaoxiang said:
I don't afraid of the Spider Mastermind much since his attack is just like the chaingunnie's one.


Actually, it's far more dangerous: it's like a machine shotgunner, and up close it can fuck you up really badly with up to 45 HP a pop, and even win against a cyberdemon if the distance favors pellet concentration. At the ranges it's usually encountered though it's almost harmless, and it's so clumsy that it often gets stuck by itself.

The Cyberdemon OTOH is far more agile, more accurate over longer ranges and even when he near-misses you. If you lose track of his firing pattern (1-2-3) it's also tough shit, as you might catch a rocket when you least expect it.
Old Post 10-18-11 11:15 #
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st.alfonzo
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Cyberdemon. The Spider Mastermind is almost never used in the way I like it, with the player always being provided the cover necessary to defeat the monster using any weapon he wishes and sustaining no damage whatsoever.

The ideal Spider Mastermind encounter is terrifying, just as dangerous as Cyberdemon encounter and is even more frenetic. It goes like this:

Give the player a large room to fight in and no cover. None. At least not in the form of pillars planted about the room, because as soon as you do that the challenge is over. Have some of the walls of the room shaped such that it could - provided the necessary angle between player and demon - give some cover for a time. The Mastermind will end up shredding the player from top to bottom in little under a moment if she's handed the opportunity, but(!); the player still has a massive advantage in the form of pain chance. Under a constant stream of plasma in particular the monster struggles to fire off a burst, and this limits the damage taken. Inevitably, some damage will be sustained though, and so there will ideally be plenty of accessible health kits and perhaps some armor planted about the room, or in other parts of the map where the player can throw themselves into when the heat gets too high.

And that's it really. The challenge comes in fighting to keep the monster under fire while frantically running about the room to pick up all the provisions.
Old Post 10-18-11 13:24 #
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Maes
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Putting one at the end of a long tunnel where you will get increasingly pelted the closer you try getting to it works wonders, too. Done correctly it's an amazing area denial.
Old Post 10-18-11 13:49 #
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Gez
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I'm thinking about using, instead of pillars, fast floor or ceiling crushers. The spider itself would be on the other side of a chasm, to prevent the player from giving it the kiss of death with a BFG. Ideally, the moving sectors would block most or all projectile weapons by impacting them, making rockets and plasma inconvenient. The range would disfavor BFG spread SSG, so it'd be a shotgun/chaingun fight, running around for resupply and temporary cover and trying not to get snagged up by a crusher while ideally the spider would never lose line of sight long enough to stop firing.
Old Post 10-18-11 14:04 #
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Maes
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Or, putting the player under the fire of more than one, with the catch that infighting would be hindered so the player wouldn't try any "smartass" tactics.
Old Post 10-18-11 14:39 #
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dannebubinga
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When you speed run slaughter maps as ngvmt1.wad, cyberdemons tend to use hooming rockets while spiders die from 1.5 BFG blasts.

When there's much going on around you and more than 1 cyber is present, they are far more dangerous than spiders would be. But I feel it's more of a risk to approach a 1vs1 with a spider than a cyberdemon. Epscially if you don't have PR or BFG.
Old Post 10-18-11 14:47 #
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Phml
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For me, cyberdemon for sure. Messing up only for an instant can spell your doom, whereas against a spider mastermind it generally takes several seconds of doing something stupid.

There are situations in which a spider mastermind can be more dangerous, but a cyberdemon remains threatful anywhere, unless he's stuck in a pit and blasts the wall under you.
Old Post 10-18-11 16:19 #
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PRIMEVAL
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Depends on the situation and environment, but the Cyberdemon is the most likely pick.

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Old Post 10-18-11 16:58 #
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Maes
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dannebubinga said:
cyberdemons tend to use hooming rockets


uh....what?
Old Post 10-18-11 17:26 #
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j4rio
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Maes said:


uh....what?


yep, enemies aim where you gonna go half the time, especially cybers who practically have homing rockets. Their 'excuse' is that they were infighting. See? I'm infighting a caco, OH HE DIED AND THE LAST ROCKET HIT YOU IN THE FOREHEAD, what a coincidence!


couldn't have said it better myself
Old Post 10-18-11 17:40 #
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C30N9
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In general, Cyberdemons.

If the area was wide big and there are no spots to hide, Spider Mastermind, otherwise he will be a pussy to me I had a circular one.

If the area was spread with columns or objects. Even from his metal foot sound I get scared of.
Old Post 10-18-11 18:33 #
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Phobus
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The Cyberdemon is the one more capable of suddenly ending the fight when the player gets unlucky, stuck, mis-times a dodge or makes a mistake of some kind.

However the Spider Mastermind is more effectively lethal as a constant threat. You need cover, infighting or to be able to one-shot them to make them a reduced threat.

I'd say the Cyberdemon is definitely the more versatile threat, but in the right environment nothing is more lethal than a Spider-Mastermind.
Old Post 10-18-11 19:59 #
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Dr. Durr
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Spider Masterminds usually turn me into Swiss Cheese in mere seconds if I'm not prepared, while the Cyberdemon I always found easy to fight.
Old Post 10-18-11 20:56 #
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Processingcontrol
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Really depends on the situation. I find Spiderdemons more diffiult when stationary in sniping positions, while Cybers are more difficult (or at least more nerve-racking) when roaming around. Cybers are used in sniping positions too often IMO.
Old Post 10-18-11 22:19 #
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yellowmadness54
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I misread the question as "treat"

I was going to answer cyberdemon, since they are fun to fight, but...whatever.

Err, still cyberdemon. Spider masterminds are weaker, and don't have splash damage. And they infight SO EASY with every other monster.
Old Post 10-18-11 22:42 #
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Optimus
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It's kinda strange that the game designers decided to give double hit points to the Cyberdemon than the Spider Mastermind. It would make more sense for me if it was the other way around.

The Cyberdemon needs too much to go down and 1-3 splats from his rockets are enough to kill you, although experienced strafers in open space can bring him down easily even with a shotgun. It's just that sometimes people use Cyberdemons in WADs at tighter spaces and energy is too high to bring him down fast enough before he is a serious threat. Even if he can't pass through a door, he can throw a rocket that you have just avoided, behind your wall and still damage you. While the Spider is much bigger in size, usually is stuck in a specific place because it can't pass through narrow (for her size) places and you just strafe left right behind a door for example and blast her with the double shotgun. with 12-18 I think she is down. Her machingun isn't such a threat if you hide behind a place, appear to blast her and then back. It's laughable for a final boss compared to the Cybie. Though, I guess in open space and when you have nowhere to hide it's an overkill.

I guess I should use a dehacked patch that reverses the HP from those bosses. It would make more sense then.

p.s. Oh,. it's quite laughable to kill a Spider mastermind with a single BFG shot running towards her. Nough said about final boss :P
While it's much harder with cyberdemon, you can't risk a very carefull close BFG shot without being usually hit with a rocket to the face. And it moves faster and has less size. Usually, when I try to hit the Cybie with BFG, half of the blasts miss and hit somewhere behind a wall. I think 2 carefull blasts brings the Cybie down while a single one the Spider. Cybie is the most kickass boss.

Last edited by Optimus on 10-19-11 at 23:13
Old Post 10-19-11 23:05 #
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yellowmadness54
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Actually a very valid point mentioned above. the SM should really be carrying for HP, and maybe a more powerful weapon.
Old Post 10-19-11 23:59 #
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yellowmadness54
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Processingcontrol said:
Really depends on the situation. I find Spiderdemons more diffiult when stationary in sniping positions, while Cybers are more difficult (or at least more nerve-racking) when roaming around. Cybers are used in sniping positions too often IMO.


And in the cat and mouse level of DOOM64, that was some hectic stuff.
Old Post 10-20-11 02:30 #
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