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xvertigox
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Posts: 262
Registered: 05-09

Cyanosis said:
I'd just quit the level and call it a day and try again later or struggle really hard to lower the difficulty due to OCD. Depends whether or not I like the map enough to do so though. Death-Destiny levels for example I enjoy playing but are ultimately save-fodder and they don't seem right below UV because I'm broken like that and enjoy being punished unfairly.

I'm in the same boat where I never play on anything lower than UV, anything else feels like a gimped version of the map. If I can't finish the map on UV I just keep playing it until I can. Some maps are hard but can be finished on your first run but others seem to rely on you knowing how certain monster traps will work and where the useful items are.

This conversation is silly. Do you guys play Nightmare! to take away the temptation of using god mode?

It makes sense to me but IMO you should harden you resolve and not give in to ressurection temptation rather than using a different port.

And for your information Cyanosis, resurrect and god mode are two completely different styles of play.

Definitely - it's a huge difference.

11-11-11 02:52 #

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Gordon
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DuckReconMajor said:
This conversation is silly. Do you guys play Nightmare! to take away the temptation of using god mode?

And for your information Cyanosis, resurrect and god mode are two completely different styles of play.

I agree.

I only save during levels on wads with long levels, mostly because I don't see the fun in having to restart a 20-minute map just because a zombie got a cheap shot.

11-11-11 03:16 #

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StupidBunny
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Posts: 835
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I was doing a playthrough of Plutonia without saving a couple years ago, after doing so with Doom and Doom II...I got to level 23 I think, and played it about 700 fucking times before getting tired of it and quitting. I hate to break my no-save streak but I may have to do one partway through to save my sanity/get to the next goddamn level.

I have still not beaten Plutonia without cheating, let alone without saving.

11-11-11 03:42 #

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Mithran Denizen
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Posts: 1093
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Cyanosis said:
That command has to be the single worst thing about ZDoom. I had to try it to make sure nobody was BSing and yeah... no thanks. If someone needs to cheat that badly use god mode or something.

How is worst aspect of ZDoom a useful command which is totally optional and requires that the user activate it each time? If you don't want to resurrect when you die, then all it takes is an ounce of self-control to hit the space bar and restart the map instead.

Playing in god mode turns gameplay into a dull drudge against harmless opposition for as long as you have it active. Playing the game normally, but resurrecting as desired to get right back into the fight, is a lot more satisfying. I look at it sort of like having infinite continues in an arcade game, or maybe the ability to use save states in an emulator, to stretch the analogy further. It's a convenience that you can use, or not, as desired. Such things aren't "hardcore" or whatever, but someone who plays a game for challenge shouldn't worry about cheating in the first place.

xvertigox said:
It makes sense to me but IMO you should harden you resolve and not give in to ressurection temptation rather than using a different port.

If the temptation to use the resurrect command is that powerful, why shouldn't one just use it as they please rather than fretting over their resolve and such? Boycotting an engine because it adds a resurrection command is even sillier than trying to repress your desire to cheat at a fifteen year old game, though, so I see your point.

11-11-11 04:05 #

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DuckReconMajor
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Mithran Denizen said:
hit the space bar and restart the map instead.

Well, in ZDoom it takes you back to your last save, which is my biggest problem with ZDoom. If you have autosave on, it will take you back to the beginning of the level, with 1% health if you so happened to end the previous level that way. Or you can disable autosave, so that when you die you hit space and load at the place you loaded from three levels ago.

11-11-11 04:09 #

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Cyanosis
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Posts: 648
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DuckReconMajor said:
resurrect and god mode are two completely different styles of play.

Yep. One's for sore losers, the others for people who suck at Doom. And both revolve around cheating.

And what's this boycotting about engines, I simply don't use it and just think it's a ridiculous command to have in there unless for testing purposes. I didn't know there was any other (shooter) game that had a resurrect cheat on the spot and bypass your "death state" since Blood's SPORK code.

Last edited by Cyanosis on 11-11-11 at 05:34

11-11-11 05:28 #

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Mithran Denizen
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Cyanosis said:
Yep. One's for sore losers,

You don't have to be sore to want to keep playing after you die, without having to waste time running past shit that you've already blown through multiple times. I appreciate a challenging map from time to time to remind me how much I suck, but more often I find myself playing Doom mods for the opportunity to explore the different little worlds that people come up with, and to see how the gameplay and general design can all come together to form a compelling experience.

Since I don't have the spare time to really play Doom that often anymore, I have to make sacrifices, so there are cases when I'm somewhat interested in experiencing a map in its entirety, but not really interested in "winning" or "beating" the map at all, or in spending more than a handful of minutes on it. When this happens, I'd rather be able to keep playing naturally, using the resurrect command to keep going for as long as the map holds still my attention, as opposed to spamming saves, spamming attempts, just running through with IDCLIP/IDDQD, or quitting outright.

The point in my life when I cared about "winning" vs. "losing" at a computer game has passed, and I play Doom for my own enjoyment, not out of any desire to conquer or complete anything.

And both revolve around cheating.

Who cares? In any case, using IDDQD has a massive disruptive effect on all gameplay, which does then "revolve around cheating", while I'd argue that playing with resurrection allowed can still be ~90% "normal gameplay" just without the same permanent consequences for screwing up or being careless here or there.

I simply don't use it and just think it's a ridiculous command to have in there unless for testing purposes. I didn't know there was any other (shooter) game that had a resurrect cheat on the spot and bypass your "death state" since Blood's SPORK code.

When you say it that way, how is IDKFA, or IDDQD, or IDCLIP really any less inherently ridiculous? How about TNTEM (Boom's command to kill all monsters in the map)? These codes are all very useful for testing, and can all be used by players at will to reduce the game's challenge to essentially nothing, if they so desire. Hell, ZDoom's "resurrect" is arguably less detrimental to normal play than any of the above four codes, all of which also screw with fundamental assumptions about how the game world works when we're not cheating.

IDKFA eliminates weapon/ammo/item scarcity and makes key locks pointless, IDDQD voids the health loss and death elements of gameplay altogether, IDCLIP lets the player escape the confines of the map geometry without limitation, and TNTEM lets one clear the map of resistance without even firing a shot.

How is the ability to escape from your death state on command more of an upheaval than all of that? Is it the impure/nonvanilla nature that puts it over the edge, or am I missing something? I can understand a person being disinterested in the ability to resurrect their dead player, but I'm a little puzzled as to why you say it's a ridiculous command in itself.

11-11-11 08:53 #

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Phml
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Got no complaints or opinions about other people using resurrect, just butting in with my own experience:

Do you guys play Nightmare! to take away the temptation of using god mode?

I certainly see the inability to use powerful cheats while demorecording as an extra boon, which is part of the reason I record most of my playing even though I don't intend to share or even watch myself most of my demos.

The point in my life when I cared about "winning" vs. "losing" at a computer game has passed, and I play Doom for my own enjoyment, not out of any desire to conquer or complete anything.

Heh, that is why I started using saves, cheats or console commands less and less myself. As I don't care about beating games anymore, the only thing that remains for me is the gameplay itself, so when I really dig what's going on, skipping death to get ahead doesn't serve any purpose, as redoing the same part is just as fun as moving on to the next part - but saving/cheating could mess up balance and so might lessen my enjoyment of the game.

I've got no qualms about saving/cheating through things that I deem repetitive or unbalanced, though, or in games that are balanced around the assumption that you save, or aren't good enough to warrant a second replay (unfortunately, the vast majority of them). Then again, I've had many eye-opener moments when I replayed games that I powered through with save spamming and realised the gameplay was a lot better if I didn't actively try to game the system.

I prefer the checkpoint system, or ideally something that would rewind your game at least 1-2 minutes, and beyond that, as far as you'd want (I think I heard the Prince of Persia series had something like that? Never played those games).

If the temptation to use the resurrect command is that powerful, why shouldn't one just use it as they please rather than fretting over their resolve and such?

In an ideal world, we'd probably all be working towards productive things like curing AIDS or getting rid of world hunger, but it is a flawed world and we are flawed human beings playing video games instead.

For some of us, other flaws can include temporary lack of self-control lessening the experience in the long run. I know when I used GZDoom as my main port the temptation to simply press a key when I died was all too strong sometimes. Much like Processingcontrol says it only takes a single second of being pissed off after an unfair death ; and just as well I remember the number of times I stopped playing a mere seconds / minutes after because, once the floodgates open, why not also jump, or vertical rocketjump, or give myself some ammo back, etc.; sometimes I just start being more and more foolhardy and spam resurrect. Either way, it eventually ruins my fun.

You can call this dumb ; it certainly is, but saying so won't magically turn me into a better person. So inherent limitations are good for some people, and making cheating less convenient can prevent cheating.

11-11-11 09:21 #

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Cyanosis
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Posts: 648
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To Mithran I suppose that makes more sense. But don't compare something that came with the game and something a source port added. That cheat list extends to a number of games, and no matter how much they can ruin a game I feel bypassing something that seemed "hard coded" such as a player character's death state was more ridiculous, my reference example of Blood's SPORK because naturally to me death means restart/reload and just about any other game that has the player character dying, it stops you from continuing to play because you got downed by the computer.

So if you can bypass the death state of the player then I feel that is violating the game even more than had you just used cheats to begin with, such as the generic god mode, all weapons/keys, walking through walls etc. It to me seems very cheaty to knowingly die on the game and have your ass handed to you only to say HA! to the computer and revive on the spot for a little bit of revenge. Sure that might not happen after every death at the player's discretion and an exception to the rule like aforementioned frustration, sure there was effort prior to the resurrection it's not like the player was cheating before that happened but ... you know what I mean, at least I'd hope someone knows what I mean. So I figured either one would of just been unstoppable to begin with or just played the game properly.

11-11-11 11:22 #

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DuckReconMajor
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The "lack of self control" part really does make sense to me and I can understand people who want to remove this temptation. But it seems like a bit too much of a personal quirk to be bashing ZDoom over. I wonder if there is a way to change the resurrect to a nonsensical string of random letters so people like this can keep using ZDoom.

Cyanosis said:
Yep. One's for sore losers, the others for people who suck at Doom.

Yep. So if I'm feeling like a sore loser today and not feeling like someone who sucks at Doom don't sit there and tell me

Cyanosis said:
use god mode or something.

Cyanosis said:
Sure that might not happen after every death at the player's discretion and an exception to the rule like aforementioned frustration, sure there was effort prior to the resurrection it's not like the player was cheating before that happened but ... you know what I mean, at least I'd hope someone knows what I mean. So I figured either one would of just been unstoppable to begin with or just played the game properly.

I get what you mean. I just don't think it's as much as a problem as you and some others think it is. I'm a cheatin-ass son of a bitch, but if I decide to play a level legitimately I don't have a compulsion to resurrect when I die. Even if I did find myself resurrecting in a fit if despair I would just use IDCLEV to go back to the beginning of the level once I calmed down.

Usually, as others said, I only use resurrect when it's a level I don't care too much about and don't want to spend a lot of time on, but would like to experience the gameplay without godmoding.

Last edited by DuckReconMajor on 11-11-11 at 11:52

11-11-11 11:43 #

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Delvin
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Cyanosis said:
But don't compare something that came with the game and something a source port added.

Technically resurrect is already something that comes with the game. Ever try playing coop? You need to use a source port if you want permanent death.

Honestly I think if you're fine with frequent saving, resurrect shouldn't be that big a deal. Both remove replaying earlier parts of a level. Save/load is better suited to retrying an ambush from the beginning properly, whereas after using resurrect most enemies would be dead already, effectively skipping the obstacle. If you die to a ninja chaingunner/stray revenant rocket they're pretty much the same.

11-11-11 12:12 #

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Cyanosis
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Posts: 648
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Delvin said:
Ever try playing coop?

Need not to make me sound so dense? That respawns you back to the starting point of the level, not at the spot you died, unless the aforementioned source port overrides this and allows that which is possible to do.

11-11-11 19:39 #

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StupidBunny
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I never saw what the big deal is about cheating in games anyway. I prefer to play Doom and other games without cheating, and with a minimum of saving, and really only use cheats for testing my own levels. I find that cheating, especially on levels I haven't played, gets rid of a lot of the surprise and joy of exploration that good levels will have. But if other people want to play through the game with God mode or resurrecting themselves or saving every 30 seconds then that's their choice and they should have it. I know that we're all gung-ho about Doom and these people look like pussies and sore losers who have no appreciation for the art of gameplay design to us, but a lot of people are pretty casual about gaming, and sometimes having the cheats on is something they do to make exploration easier and more comfortable. (The example that comes to mind is my mom, she used to play Turok and Commander Keen with cheats on a lot.) One of the things I like about Doom is the cheats are so short and easy to enter: too many games make the cheats these cryptic-ass 200-character strings that nobody can ever remember, like the code activates a fucking nuclear defense system or something. I say if people want to cheat, let them have the option.

11-11-11 20:01 #

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Cyanosis
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I may as well be theoretically cheating by save-scumming on hard maps but that's my fault for not attempting to better my skills. I'm either too cautious to the point of being a sitting duck or too careless to the point I'm getting chewed up and saving with 3 health and somehow after the 20th time manage to survive a stupidly hard fight I made almost impossible myself.

What some people probably don't like is how frequent save/load combination can interrupt the flow and battling the same tedious fight will become grinding.

11-11-11 20:47 #

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b0rsuk
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I particularly enjoy playing with no saves when I use randomly generated WADs from Oblige. When I do, I just quit the game and delete the file if I die. I only make an exception if I generated a particularly enjoyable level.

Playing with no saves is interesting because you have to play carefully. There's never an option to reload or respawn. I think I'll mod spectres to produce no sounds except attack and pain sounds.

11-12-11 22:49 #

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DuckReconMajor
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b0rsuk said:
I particularly enjoy playing with no saves when I use randomly generated WADs from Oblige. When I do, I just quit the game and delete the file if I die. I only make an exception if I generated a particularly enjoyable level.

This is the coolest idea I've read in a while.

11-13-11 00:15 #

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