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Splatter
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Registered: 12-05

kristus said:
I have a theory that the Heresiarch in Hexen actually was meant to be Korax, and the creature that ended up being Korax was going to be his steed.

DarkJedi188 said:
YES! I remember this exact theory being mentioned somewhere on this board around a year or 2 ago, and I fully agree with it by 100%.

That conception's actually corroborated by at least one Raven dev... though I don't think Ken Hoekstra worked on the original Heretic.

Anyway, I like to think that spectres are really spectres and not just translucent pinky demons. I know they use pinky behavior and a modified pinky sprite, but my first impression was that they were unique ghostly entities and that id just used pinky resources for convenience. I can see the decision being made to include touch-damaging ghosts in the Doom bestiary, and then the decision being made to reuse the AI of the other close combat enemy. Recycling the sprite wouldn't matter much either for an enemy that's quasi-invisible.

Of course, Doom 64 craps on that idea by making spectres simply pinkies that turn on transparency when they detect you and lose it when they die.

12-22-11 03:32 #

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Clonehunter
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Posts: 1802
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Regarding "immortal Demons", I like to think that opening a portal into our dimension stripped them of any sort of immortality they had, thus making them vulnerable. When killed, their evil souls are sent to the lake of fire.

12-22-11 03:52 #

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Technician
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Clonehunter said:
Regarding "immortal Demons", I like to think that opening a portal into our dimension stripped them of any sort of immortality they had, thus making them vulnerable. When killed, their evil souls are sent to the lake of fire.

Yeah, but you're physically killing them in hell.

12-22-11 05:59 #

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Kirby
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kristus said:
I have a theory that the Heresiarch in Hexen actually was meant to be Korax, and the creature that ended up being Korax was going to be his steed.

Oh wow, I never even thought of that. It immediately made this make sense to me. The Heresiarch is supposed to be the one pictured.

12-22-11 06:24 #

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kristus
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Yes, that is what initially gave me the theory.

12-22-11 08:27 #

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Antroid
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I think that denying the doom's enemies their right to be demons just because you are an atheist is really silly. I am one too, and a pretty "militant" one (let's not go into that though!), but i always enjoy works of fiction that are set in a world where some mythology is true. The christian hell&demons are kind of the default and the generic hell&demons for me, probably because of our cultural circumstances. And i usually like the more generic stuff because it puts less limits on the fiction and your imagination.
Also i thought that hell in doom wasn't just "on a parallel mars", i thought it was a flat-out other dimension with no corellation to our own, only with some elements "stolen" for some eeevil decorations?

I also like that one "chaotic dimension" idea and in fact i was a bit worried reading that post, because in the wad i'm making since forever hell is more of that than literal hell. I'm making it to be a world of ideas and concepts that "steals" those from us humans, since we produce them in our otherwise material world (yes i know ideas are technically material, though i think that the concept of conciousness is still a big enough hole to fit some mystical spiritual crap in there when you're doing fiction), and of course through some unfortunate event it starts slowly crawling into our world, devouring it.

12-24-11 20:20 #

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kmxexii
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Antroid said:
I also like that one "chaotic dimension" idea and in fact i was a bit worried reading that post, because in the wad i'm making since forever hell is more of that than literal hell. I'm making it to be a world of ideas and concepts that "steals" those from us humans, since we produce them in our otherwise material world (yes i know ideas are technically material, though i think that the concept of conciousness is still a big enough hole to fit some mystical spiritual crap in there when you're doing fiction), and of course through some unfortunate event it starts slowly crawling into our world, devouring it.

Sounds neat. You should finish it!

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12-25-11 01:23 #

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Antroid
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kmxexii said:

Sounds neat. You should finish it!

Thanks. I will, sometime.

12-25-11 06:33 #

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DarkJedi188
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Antroid said:
I think that denying the doom's enemies their right to be demons just because you are an atheist is really silly.

If the playable character was a winged angel with a halo and some kind of scepter rather than being a spacemarine with a helmet and a shotgun then I wouldn't have had any freedom to twist the interpretation of the fictional work to my own beliefs. That way I wouldn't have had any other choice but to accept it as it is even while being an atheist.
But that is not the case.
ID Software was being too abstract and gave us too much freedom to view it whichever way we please. So I'm guessing that they didn't think of it as silly.

12-26-11 02:05 #

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Antroid
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Except that the hell&demons are repeatedly referred to as hell&demons, and what about all the satanic imagery, like pentagrams and upside down crosses? Well clearly they are "aliens" meaning that they are alien in our world, but they are still absolutely meant to be demons. Besides, as many people said already, it is a work of fiction and your beliefs should not matter whatsoever. The mere fact that you can't suspend your disbelief for a fictional story is what is silly here. Everybody does that!

12-26-11 09:12 #

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kmxexii
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Actually, I'm more curious as to what the credible scientific justification is for lost souls and pain elementals. Hell to Pay just outright modded them into liquid metal monsters a la Terminator 2.

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12-26-11 09:59 #

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Phml
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what about all the satanic imagery, like pentagrams and upside down crosses?

Everytime I hear that one I picture hillbillies complaining about foreigners taking their jobs.

12-26-11 10:25 #

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DeathevokatioN
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For me it was always a fight against an ominous evil force that twisted and seeded their own reality into that of earth. Which is partly an excuse for me to forget entirely about realism whenever I make tech base maps. :)

12-26-11 11:19 #

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geo
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The thing I never understood was the portal from Phobos to Deimos. Why link them? Why be on Phobos and not Mars? Why not have the portals on Earth? Because they've been banned? The game makes it seem like Portals are brand new. Why not have Phobos to Phobos first before Phobos to Deimos.

But a game is a game.

12-26-11 15:43 #

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DarkJedi188
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geo said:
The thing I never understood was the portal from Phobos to Deimos. Why link them? Why be on Phobos and not Mars? Why not have the portals on Earth? Because they've been banned? The game makes it seem like Portals are brand new. Why not have Phobos to Phobos first before Phobos to Deimos.

I'm guessing that this was done for security measures. The Earth's united government was intuitively sensing that some kind of emergency was most likely to occur and that some more-advanced hostile civilization would attempt to forcefully colonize planet Earth in the same manner that the Europeans forcefully colonized North America.

So having said that, having the portal on Earth would just literally be like handing our entire species over to any potential invaders on a platter. We wouldn't have enough room and enough time to fall back and regroup with reinforcements.

Antroid said:Except that the hell&demons are repeatedly referred to as hell&demons, and what about all the satanic imagery, like pentagrams and upside down crosses?

Do bear in mind that asides from those things there are also computer monitors with the words "Tei Tenga" being displayed on them and photos of some planet's surface.
That's a direct hint that the roots of DOOM's creation were indeed originally focused on extra-terrestrial encounters which were not prophesized in any Bible or Toru.

12-27-11 01:27 #

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Antroid
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DarkJedi188 said:

Do bear in mind that asides from those things there are also computer monitors with the words "Tei Tenga" being displayed on them and photos of some planet's surface.
That's a direct hint that the roots of DOOM's creation were indeed originally focused on extra-terrestrial encounters which were not prophesized in any Bible or Toru.

Well that's obviously an oversight. Or maybe an easter egg. In any case, honestly the guys were probably just making whatever felt sinister and evil for them, and most people can relate to the classic imagery of hell, even if it doesn't really make sense (i mean, did some intelligence actually construct all these useless, but scary castles and catacombs? or did they just kinda manifest by themselves? I am by far a bigger fan of the latter option).

12-27-11 02:24 #

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DarkJedi188
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Antroid said:

Well that's obviously an oversight. Or maybe an easter egg.

I think that it might have been unintentionally left behind because ID Software were rushing to get the game released in time for Christmas of 1993 before their rival competitor Apogee Software could release something more attention-grabbing in the upcoming 1994 with the great Tom Hall now playing on their team.

But anyways, I respect your opinions, so don't be offended. It's fun to read how people can see stuff from different angles.

12-27-11 04:17 #

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metrogotham
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well as a scientist i still think there is a god and as us humans do not know the the anserws we are very close minded i think its beyond our knowlegde to know what happends when the demons get killed

12-28-11 03:35 #

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Mr. T
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I think it's more likely that iD just didn't bother changing it. Who gives a fuck about Tei Tenga?!

12-28-11 06:12 #

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Snakes
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metrogotham said:
well as a scientist i still think there is a god and as us humans do not know the the anserws we are very close minded i think its beyond our knowlegde to know what happends when the demons get killed

Impeccable logic has been applied to this discussion. May any debate end here and now.

I have found all of the anserws I'm looking for.

12-28-11 06:26 #

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DuckReconMajor
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Posts: 3847
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Yeah less religious discussion more WHAT THE HELL KIND OF SHOTGUN SHOOTS PELLETS IN A STRAIGHT LINE???

My crazed fan theory: Doomguy has a special shotgun that has one of those select-a-spray hose nozzles. 'Flat' is his favorite setting.

12-28-11 06:40 #

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esselfortium
Cumulonimbus Antagonistic Posting

Posts: 5268
Registered: 01-02

DarkJedi188 said:

Do bear in mind that asides from those things there are also computer monitors with the words "Tei Tenga" being displayed on them and photos of some planet's surface.
That's a direct hint that the roots of DOOM's creation were indeed originally focused on extra-terrestrial encounters which were not prophesized in any Bible or Toru.

What do the computer displays have to do with the demons' origin, though? The game is in space. It's not particularly telling for there to be monitors of various planet surfaces in computer labs owned by a company that we know has colonized and set up bases on Phobos and Deimos. Other than the fact that it enforces the space setting of the two episodes that take place in manmade bases.

It says Tei Tenga because that's where the game originally took place until they rewrote the original storyline (which still had demons from Hell) in favor of something simpler (which also still had demons from Hell). The monitors' text is small and the words are taken completely out of any sentence context, so they could get away with not bothering to alter them. I mean, it's not like the maps and graphs that go along with the text mean anything, themselves.

But much more importantly than two miniscule words on a computer texture: The game's storyline repeatedly refers to demons and Hell itself, the third episode and the final map in it both take their names from Dante's Inferno, and this is silly and not worth arguing.

12-28-11 06:43 #

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