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Super Jamie
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Of course N64 emulation will never happen on the GP2X, however it does run some 2D PSX games at playable speeds.

Anyway the GP2X isn't even for sale anymore and has been superseded twice so the point is moot. The Caanoo/Dingoo/Pandora are the emu handhelds now, although depending on what you want to play, the PSP does okay as well. Emulation on the DS is a joke.

The main issue I see with any platform intended for emulation is getting developers to port and support emulators to them.

Accuracy is not a problem for almost all popular emulated systems, the code is out there, but like you say optimising it to run on these devices is the challenge.

This is where Android has strength. I can plug a genuine SNES controller into my Galaxy Tab 10.1 and play SNES at 100% accuracy and speed. The same can probably be said for many PSX games. The same functionality is now available to any decent Android device with little-to-no changes required from the developer's perspective.

Old Post 01-26-12 12:43 #
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hex11
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I don't recommend the NDS for the purpose of running emulators, if only because its dinky screen resolution causes problems when trying to emulate some systems (like Sega Genesis) that have better video resolution. In those cases, you're left with the choice of either clipping the screen or software scaling the image (slow!)

That said, here's my NDS emulator experience...
Amstrad CPC : very good
PC Engine : very good
Sega Master : very good
Sega Genesis : good (games run at full speed, but in some cases the clipping can be a problem)
NES : very good
SNES : meh (you have to fiddle with display settings for many games, and quite a few don't seem to work well even then)
MAME : meh (very limited game support, some screen issues)

Well those are the only ones I used extensively. And I guess GBA stuff would work great so long as you have a slot-1 flash cart (I have an old NDS Lite with Acekard 2, so no luck).

Also, the dual-screen thing is really a gimmick and a single bigger (4.3 inch) touchscreen would have been much better value overall.

The other thing too is that many of the emulators (and other homebrew) authors don't release source code, and then they're slow to fix bugs and sometimes abandon the project. Also the libfat seems buggy and prone to corrupt the flash filesystem, or perhaps it's due to some authors not using it correctly but it's very hard to tell without src. Anyway parts of the dev kit don't seem very portable (I couldn't compile everything under OpenBSD, and I imagine it may not work even on some Linux distros).

The Dingoo scene might be better, and I'm sure the Pandora is great (except for the cost!) But at this point I'm much more inclined to buy the smallest, cheapest netbook I can find and install a regular Unix OS on it.

Old Post 01-26-12 15:01 #
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Super Jamie
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The GBA SP Brighter offers a superior GBA experience to the DS and DS Lite.

Old Post 01-26-12 15:02 #
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Maes
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hex11 said:
emulator experience


Incidentally (not at all), those are the same systems that could be emulated successfully on a Pentium I or even a 486: some well-written and optimized emulators could give full or even multiple-speed emulation for 8-bit Z80-based machines even on a 486, provided they used an optimized ASM Z80 code and not the infamous Marat Z80 core.

The most optimized emulator ever was probably Sparcade: focused almost exclusively on 8-bit Z80-based early arcade games and Master System/Game Gear, it was a marvel of optimization: 60 fps performance on most games even on a 486 DX/40, WITH SOUND :-o It also outperformed other SMS/GG emulators at their own game, thanks to its custom super-optimized drivers.

Emulators of 6502 systems were always behind the curve in terms of performance (e.g. no NES or C64 emulator could provide real-time performance on a two-digit 486, also because of the complex hardware
to emulate).

Edit: actually there was exactly ONE emulator that could do that: C64S by Miha Peternel, but only some really early beta versions of it. Subsequent versions were not as fast, for various reasons, but were usable on a 486.

For emulating 16-bit 68000-based systems at full speed (provided that there wasn't too much custom hardware) however you needed at least a Pentium-class CPU, but some would work on a 486 with some frame skip. THere were some particularly efficient 68000 emulators for the Intel platform, and emulators using them e.g. Raine always had a performance edge over MAME.

PC Engine emulators were just about at the same level of performance as 68000/6502 emulators: Pentium-class only.

The NDS's CPU places it on about the same level as a Pentium I @ 100 MHz, so the kinds of games you can emulate on it sound about standard fare.

MAME is infamous for what regards performance degradation: I remember I could run NEO-GEO games at 2x-3x speed on an Athlon XP1400 with v0.63, now I'm lucky if I get 110% tops with a Dual Core. It's also impossible to get "100x speedups" even on early 8-bit games like Pac Man anymore. The versions used as the basis for limited platforms like the NDS will, as matter of necessity, be older/support far less games, lagging VERY far behind the latest & greatest in the full desktop version.

Last edited by Maes on 01-26-12 at 16:15

Old Post 01-26-12 16:03 #
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_bruce_
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Top info + I remember C64s going through roms like a hot knife through butter on my beloved P60.

MAME is it's own little universe and I would recommend going the version depending on game and machine route - unnerving but an alternative.
Same with the GamCube/WII emu Dolphin... you need a secretary which keeps track which version to use with which game regarding speed and compatibility.

Old Post 01-26-12 18:49 #
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geo
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Never ever get GBA games from Amazon or Ebay. Know why? Half the time they're usually ROM cards in Gameboy Advances. There usually is no battery backup and the screw on the back is usually covered. Some fake GBA carts are slightly different sizes to fit in too snug. I've even had some carts that specifically say who they were ROMed by or offer you infinite lives before you start the game.

There are pirates out there who even pirate the game boxes and instruction manuals. They smell terrible like they were freshly printed.

Old Post 01-26-12 21:51 #
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Porsche Monty
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Maes said:
For emulating 16-bit 68000-based systems at full speed (provided that there wasn't too much custom hardware) however you needed at least a Pentium-class CPU, but some would work on a 486 with some frame skip


It really depends on how much of the basic components you're emulating and how. Make it cycle-exact and don't be surprised if a 3.8ghz won't cut it anymore.

Vsync and proper low latency sound/input can dramatically increase CPU usage, so anything that runs more or less comfortably without them will not necessarily perform as well under more desirable conditions.

You can see some of that in emus like WinUAE, and that's pure C with assembly optimizations.

Old Post 01-26-12 23:49 #
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Maes
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There was a Genesis emulator in particular (Genecyst?) that allowed some simpler games to be playable on a 486. It used all sorts of VGA hacks (including switching the screen to weird modes like X, Y and Q, and others as well), dynamic recompilation of 68K code into Intel, and using the OPL3 chip directly as a bypass for Genesis audio. With all that in place, there were about 20 fps left in place, enough to play a slow-paced platformer like New Zealand Story ;-)

Sure, if someone wants cycle exact OPN audio output instead of a super-efficient OPL3 bypass or a fast OPL emulation core....then requirements can literally go over the roof, but IMHO it's ridiculous and futile to pursue this type of cycle-exactness, especially when not given a choice to turn it off. "Just" getting the game playable and FAST (speed is always paramount to emulation) without obvious glitches is enough. I don't care if the sound output is 1/65535th of a sample off.

Old Post 01-27-12 01:01 #
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Porsche Monty
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As soon as software pulls a bit of unusual trickery to speed things up or to create an interesting effect, cycle-exact emulation becomes a must. This is specially true for Amiga demos, but I understand how a piece of hardware like the genesis, which I presume was designed with somewhat predefined, stricter and more predictable software in mind, would be better off emulated with a speed-over-accuracy approach.

Old Post 01-27-12 01:29 #
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hex11
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Yeah, I used MAME on my p120 to play Pengo and a few others. There was also a very optimized emulator called System 16 that ran all those games very well. This was in 1996... I don't much bother with MAME anymore. Every time a new version comes out, a ton of old ROMs don't work anymore, and in some cases (ex: Altered Beast) the new version reports "file XYZ not found (no good dump known)", even though it worked perfectly fine before, at least as far as any actual user would care.

Right now I'm still using this old version:
xmame (x11) version 0.104 (Mar 19 2010)
Don't plan to "upgrade" anytime soon...

The Raine project sounds interesting, but it has some technical problems (which at least can be solved more easily than MAME's developer madness). I built it without the ASM video core, but it still uses i386 asm for some functions that haven't been translated to C equivalents yet. So that means it just flat out won't run on other architectures, and even on OpenBSD i386 because his code does unconventional stuff and gets killed by the kernel (segfault) at this stage:
#0 init_video_core () at source/video/newspr.c:1380
1380 init_moveasm();
On the Raine forums, he recommended to someone that they should run a plain vanilla Linux kernel because the stack protection (and other security features) of some distro kernels doesn't allow his code to run. :D

Old Post 01-27-12 12:46 #
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chungy
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MAME tends to emphasize emulation accuracy and code correctness over playability.

I can't exactly blame them. I'm never particular sad when the era comes to kill off the speed-over-accuracy emulator. Eg, I use exclusively Nestopia rather than FCEU, and if I had a stronger computer, I'd be using bsnes rather than Snes9x. A whole host of problems with many games pretty much goes away with them.

Old Post 01-27-12 15:37 #
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Porsche Monty
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hex11 said:
I don't much bother with MAME anymore. Every time a new version comes out, a ton of old ROMs don't work anymore, and in some cases (ex: Altered Beast) the new version reports "file XYZ not found (no good dump known)", even though it worked perfectly fine before, at least as far as any actual user would care.


This makes sense if they're able to confirm known rom sets to be broken or incomplete, for the sake of accuracy.

But put that aside, last time I ran this piece of garbage it reported 2 different resolutions and video timings for the same game, yes, 2, one after the legal notice and the other at the "Game Information" menu, like MAME was magically able to compensate for the lack of custom display modes with perfectly matching timings so that it wouldn't matter what you settle for...then try keeping it from stretching and distorting the image when you choose a resolution that's not exactly the original (or double, quadruple, etc that) which you must set (and sometimes it's not technically possible) because -noswitchres (which does always stretch the image no matter what, even in ddraw mode) is about the ONLY way to bypass all of MAME's worthless internal assumptions about your video driver and enforce your custom display modes, and we're talking switching your desktop to the desired resolution previous to running the emulator, and I tell you it's no fun when the mouse pointer is like 1/4 of your visible screen.

If there's any software thrown together with less care and less regard for basic usability and flexibility than DosBox, that's MAME.

Old Post 01-27-12 21:46 #
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Csonicgo
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chungy said:
MAME tends to emphasize emulation accuracy and code correctness over playability.

I can't exactly blame them. I'm never particular sad when the era comes to kill off the speed-over-accuracy emulator. Eg, I use exclusively Nestopia rather than FCEU, and if I had a stronger computer, I'd be using bsnes rather than Snes9x. A whole host of problems with many games pretty much goes away with them.



I've noticed in the second-generation era of consoles that this approach has actually caused more problems, because the ROM now has to be perfectly valid to work properly. In some cases, hacks break completely, and in rare cases, original games that once worked properly fail to work, or just don't run at all.

This is the sad consequence of "complete" accuracy: The original hardware itself was a mess, full of errata that, when "corrected" from reverse engineering, will still cause some games to trip over themselves and burn.

Case in Point: the Atari VCS had quite a few errors in its long run, and some games actually checked for these. Emulators didn't, however, so when work was being done on creating a 100% accurate emulator sometime in the late 2000s, more and more games simply ceased to work, or exhibited really strange behavior (Pitfall! turned goth, for example).

Then there's the case of the game actually being wrong, but the original hardware didn't care. Kool-Aid Man losing collision detection was from a coding error, but the VCS didn't catch this slip until later in its run (2600 Jrs can't play the game at all).

And I haven't even touched the dozens of bankswitching black magic, Memory Mappers, and external CPUs (Starpath Supercharger). All of these with their own problems and their own quirks.

It's amazing the original hardware worked in the first place.

Old Post 01-27-12 22:51 #
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DuckReconMajor
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chungy said:
and if I had a stronger computer, I'd be using bsnes rather than Snes9x.
have you tried the 32-bit version? it seems to run alright on my ThinkPad. Or is the 32-bit one significantly less accurate?

Old Post 01-28-12 02:39 #
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chungy
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CSonicGo: Haha yes, all of that is quite true. Take a look at the development of Stella if you need proof of your point (or maybe you already have). It is quite a mess, even though you'd think the Atari 2600 would be rather simple.

DRM: I'm not sure why a 32-bit version would necessarily be faster. Perhaps bsnes itself has improved in speed? I last tried it around two years ago... I could run Super Mario World near 100% but not most of the games I actually care about. I suppose I could try building it as 32-bit probably, but I imagine it'll be a pain.

Old Post 01-28-12 07:30 #
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Super Jamie
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bsnes is inappropriately accuracy targeted. It takes all four cores of my i2500K to 25% when playing 1942 on NES. And that's 64-bit.

Old Post 01-28-12 08:19 #
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DuckReconMajor
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chungy said:
DRM: I'm not sure why a 32-bit version would necessarily be faster. Perhaps bsnes itself has improved in speed? I last tried it around two years ago... I could run Super Mario World near 100% but not most of the games I actually care about. I suppose I could try building it as 32-bit probably, but I imagine it'll be a pain.
I downloaded bnes somewhat recently. There was a 64 bit and a 32 bit version inside. I dunno if the 32 bit version sacrifices something, but in a readme file he says if your computer can't handle the 64 bit version, try the 32 bit. Sure enough that version runs well for me.

Old Post 01-28-12 14:28 #
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fraggle
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Porsche Monty said:

If there's any software thrown together with less care and less regard for basic usability and flexibility than DosBox, that's MAME.

In terms of usability, DOSbox is actually a huge step up from everything else that was previously around. Before DOSbox, to get an emulated DOS machine you had to go through a long, tedious process of configuring an emulator, installing DOS into it, etc. The fact that DOSbox gives you a full working DOS machine, out of the box (pun not intended), with sensible defaults and without having to set anything up, is a godsend.

Old Post 01-28-12 19:55 #
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Porsche Monty
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I'll have to completely disagree with that. I guess DosBox is better than nothing at all or even something exceptionally slow like Bochs (for playing games that is) but that doesn't make it good in my opinion.

To me what matters the most is being able to recreate a genuine, 1:1, pixel-perfect, properly v-synced and smooth-scrolling (whenever software allows it) fullscreen DOS feel on my computer, and DosBox isn't anywhere near flexible enough to get it where I want it no matter how much I tweak it, and it has to be tweaked a lot because the default settings are far from optimal. Also, the fact that the author admitted to using an outdated compiler with no optimizations for building the official binaries tells you how much they care, because absolutely everyone running DosBox does it on a thousand core PC...

vgaonly broken for as long as it has existed? who cares, let's throw in a bunch of ugly scalers.

There's a DosBox fork out there that supposedly offers this kind of flexibility, but in reality it won't work, because all there needs to be done is sync the emulated refresh rate with the host's refresh rate (like several emus do) and they haven't even tried.

I'm very disenchanted with the PC emulation, it's like they all wanted you to run everything in a shitty, blurry window with all your desktop's garbage leaking into your field of view.

Old Post 01-28-12 20:45 #
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Maes
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I hereby propose changing Porsche Monty's title to "butthurt by DosBox". Dude.

Old Post 01-28-12 22:07 #
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Super Jamie
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Porsche Monty said:
To me what matters the most is being able to recreate a genuine, 1:1, pixel-perfect, properly v-synced and smooth-scrolling (whenever software allows it) fullscreen DOS feel on my computer

This is not DOSBox's aim. The fault lies with you for having incorect expectatations of the software.

I agree with Fraggle. Go actually set up a DOS machine and spend half a day screwing around with drivers, autoexec/config, actually getting the damn files onto the machine cos DOS networking is a huge pain. Some games still won't run because of ridiculous memory requirements or some other mystical setting they need which isn't documented and no debugging feedback is given besdies a hardware lockup. You'll be so thankful to go back to DOSBox at the end of it.

Old Post 01-28-12 22:54 #
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Maes
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Super Jamie said:
actually getting the damn files onto the machine cos DOS networking is a huge pain


For a DOS machine, I wouldn't even consider networking. Plain old floppies (to get the basic stuff going, up to the CD-ROM driver) and/or a CD-ROM work better, if you want to be all fancy and stuff. Unless of course you're using fancy FreeDOS....

Old Post 01-28-12 22:57 #
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Porsche Monty
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Super Jamie said:

This is not DOSBox's aim. The fault lies with you for having incorect expectatations of the software.



It ain't nobody's fault, it just isn't useful enough for me. I have occasionally tried emulators for other platforms and they suffer from more or less the same irritating limitations.


Super Jamie said:
I agree with Fraggle. Go actually set up a DOS machine and spend half a day screwing around with drivers, autoexec/config, actually getting the damn files onto the machine cos DOS networking is a huge pain


I don't need DOS networking at all, but if I did, I'd know exactly what to do and what to expect. I don't like it when software makes assumption about what I know and what I don't.


Super Jamie said:
Some games still won't run because of ridiculous memory requirements or some other mystical setting they need which isn't documented and no debugging feedback is given besdies a hardware lockup. You'll be so thankful to go back to DOSBox at the end of it.


Use DosBox megabuild with debugger enabled?

Old Post 01-28-12 23:12 #
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Super Jamie
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You are missing my point entirely. Never mind.

Old Post 01-28-12 23:20 #
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Csonicgo
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Super Jamie said:

This is not DOSBox's aim. The fault lies with you for having incorect expectatations of the software.

I agree with Fraggle. Go actually set up a DOS machine and spend half a day screwing around with drivers, autoexec/config, actually getting the damn files onto the machine cos DOS networking is a huge pain. Some games still won't run because of ridiculous memory requirements or some other mystical setting they need which isn't documented and no debugging feedback is given besdies a hardware lockup. You'll be so thankful to go back to DOSBox at the end of it.



This dude ain't kiddin'. The only reason I'm good at it is 10+ years experience.

I have over 20 custom DOS configs one-to-one with executables that I know of off the top of my head. every program requires different configurations, TSRs and other hackery. Thankfully, Win95 allows me to do this easily, but the old way is still fair game.

Off the top of my head for Doom: Load VESA driver, Cutemouse Driver with wheel enabled, soundblaster drivers and BLASTER set, DMX Options set. That's just the start.

Old Post 01-28-12 23:25 #
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Super Jamie
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Maes said:
For a DOS machine, I wouldn't even consider networking. Plain old floppies (to get the basic stuff going, up to the CD-ROM driver) and/or a CD-ROM work better, if you want to be all fancy and stuff. Unless of course you're using fancy FreeDOS....

You are right, I have a USB floppy drive but I don't think it works. I have a bootable CD of DOS, which does floppy emulation, so the floppy disk image loads as A: and then loads a CD-Rom driver so I can access the rest of the disc.

If I wanted to get DOS installed on a machine that didn't boot from CD, I think I'd have to put the hard drive in another machine and install DOS onto it, then put the hard drive back. This is an issue with new PCs, which don't often have IDE ports on the motherboard anymore.

I'd love to get one of these: http://www.mini-box.com.au/M350%20I...IO%20Riser.html

Fanless Atom CPU, boot FreeDOS from SATA-DOM or USB, have Yamaha PCI card. Completely silent killer OPL3 machine. However I don't know if the Yamaha drivers will do DDMA on that motherboard, which is how the card does its ISA Soundblaster emulation so you can use the OPL chip in games, so I'm hesitant to drop cash on something which may not work :P

Old Post 01-28-12 23:30 #
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