Baron of Hell
Register | User Profile | Member List | F.A.Q | Privacy Policy | New Blog | Search Forums | Forums Home
Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Classic Doom > Doom General > Heresiarch/Korax
Pages (2): [1] 2 »  
Author
All times are GMT. The time now is 04:39. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
shadow1013
Junior Member


Posts: 228
Registered: 08-10


I just played through Heretic right now, and the ending to me seems to suggest that the Heresiarch was one of the Serpent Riders. Not only this, but it seems to make more sense. D'Sparil and the Heresiarch are similar, both are in the robes of the Trident, yet the Heresiarch is not Korax, which is instead a gray serpent-like beast

Old Post 12-23-11 23:52 #
shadow1013 is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
printz
CRAZY DUMB ZEALOT


Posts: 6844
Registered: 06-06


Magic is something that exists in there, so I wouldn't be surprised at all if Korax had many faces. The Heresiarch does look like a wannabe Serpent Rider, but I doubt he has enough power.

Korax looks like the classical dragon villain to me.

Old Post 12-24-11 00:10 #
printz is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Xaser
Senior Member


Posts: 1629
Registered: 07-03


It's pretty clear to me that the Heresiarch's design was supposed to be Korax, but they changed it during Hexen's development for some reason. I kinda like the idea of the Heresiarch just being one of Korax's avatars, which may better explain why there are two. :P

Old Post 12-24-11 00:21 #
Xaser is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
shadow1013
Junior Member


Posts: 228
Registered: 08-10


I wonder what Eidolon would have looked like if Raven made the Heresiarch Korax though...

Old Post 12-24-11 00:23 #
shadow1013 is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Xaser
Senior Member


Posts: 1629
Registered: 07-03


EIDOLON SLUG!

*ahem*

Well, who knows? I remember reading in an interview or something that they made Eidolon red because they remembered the end screen from Heretic, although the graphics clearly show otherwise. Raven retconned it to explain the 'oops'. :P

Old Post 12-24-11 00:26 #
Xaser is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
yellowmadness54
Senior Member


Posts: 1149
Registered: 03-10


Too, Heresiarch shows up at the end of heretic on the screen after beat D'sparil. So perhaps Heresiarch was meant to be Korax, afterall.
EDIT: I should probably read through the thread a bit more before posting from now on.

Old Post 12-24-11 01:00 #
yellowmadness54 is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
shadow1013
Junior Member


Posts: 228
Registered: 08-10


I wonder why they changed it in the first place anyway though

Old Post 12-24-11 01:10 #
shadow1013 is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Avoozl
Member


Posts: 386
Registered: 06-09


Heresiarch is a title rather than a name, right?

Old Post 12-24-11 02:41 #
Avoozl is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Quasar
Moderator


Posts: 4615
Registered: 08-00


This is only at least the third thread on this forum about this ;) They've all pretty much reached the same conclusions.

Old Post 12-24-11 03:21 #
Quasar is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Vordakk
Forum Regular


Posts: 862
Registered: 07-10


A Heresiarch is the leader of a heretical cult or order. So it would have made some sense if there had been only ONE Heresiarch in Hexen(probably the end boss, who is the leader of all the Hexen monsters). My guess is that somebody high up felt that the Heresiarch was too similar to D'Sparil so they made him a tough mini-boss instead of the end boss.

Old Post 12-24-11 03:55 #
Vordakk is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!


Posts: 7042
Registered: 07-07


Korax is pretty much a black Chaos Serpent with six arms and a Giger touch. He was meant to be the mount.

As Michael Raymond-Judy said, though, the bosses are always the last thing to get done where there's the least time to get them right. So they must have decided to turn a two-stage boss into a boss and a miniboss and to make it less like Heretic.

I think it'd have been better if the three Serpent Riders had all been riding serpents, but obviously they went another way.

Old Post 12-24-11 11:37 #
Gez is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Enjay
ASK ME ABOUT FOOTBALL / STEAM / DEAD CELEBRITIES / THE BLAIR WITCH PROJECT


Posts: 5595
Registered: 12-00


Yes, I'm pretty much in agreement. I think that the Heresiarch was originally going to be the boss and I think it is possible (though not as certain) that Korax was going to be his mount. Personally, I would rather that they had went that way. It makes more sense in the context of the "serpent rider" idea and ties in better with the Heretic end screen. Also, IMO, the Hersiarch is a better boss than Korax and fighting him at the end of the game (especially if you had to do so after killing his mount) would have been a far more epic battle.

Too similar to the Heretic ending? Possibly, but I think it would feel more complete and logical in a "part of a bigger story" kind of way.

Eidolon could have worked well as either a mount or a rider - if there had been some actual serpent riding going on. He could have done the getting bigger thing as a mount (with a tiny rider perched on top) or he could have been the rider and when he was toppled from his mount he could have then grown to gargantuan size. Of course, a better arena would have helped that battle too IMO.

Old Post 12-24-11 11:51 #
Enjay is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Reaper978
We find his lack of rocket launcher faith disturbing


Posts: 221
Registered: 09-08



Gez said:
I think it'd have been better if the three Serpent Riders had all been riding serpents, but obviously they went another way.
Yeah since they are called, after all... the Serpent Riders.

How they came up with this anonymous "Heresiarch" creature that comes out of nowhere adds an even more bizarre edge to an already bizarre game. Not that that's a bad thing.

Last edited by Reaper978 on 12-24-11 at 17:09

Old Post 12-24-11 17:03 #
Reaper978 is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
hex11
Senior Member


Posts: 1481
Registered: 09-09


Maybe they're wearing serpent-skin roller blades. Flying all over the place burns up mana, and even a BBEG's gotta get some exercise to stay healthy...

Old Post 12-24-11 18:33 #
hex11 is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
printz
CRAZY DUMB ZEALOT


Posts: 6844
Registered: 06-06



Gez said:
Korax is pretty much a black Chaos Serpent with six arms and a Giger touch. He was meant to be the mount.
He was? Was it initially planned for him to be a mount? Let's admit that he looks quite fine as a draconic villain, especially with his alien or godlike (depending on interpretation) 6 arms.


Gez said:

I think it'd have been better if the three Serpent Riders had all been riding serpents, but obviously they went another way.

Err, why? Why would they NEED to ride other creatures when fighting you? Maybe they're better off without them in combat or they're in name only. After all, they're villains, they can lie about themselves. And thinking that the "serpent" D'sparil was riding was only the thing you see in E3M8 is anticlimactic. When I read "serpent", especially the ridden one, I think of giant Chinese dragons or worms (especially due to serpent equaling snake for me) that they're using to travel through worlds.

Old Post 12-24-11 18:45 #
printz is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Vermil
Senior Member


Posts: 1223
Registered: 03-04


HeXen was rushed; while it's never been officially stated as far as I am aware, it's fairly obvious that it was. I've commented on a couple of pieces of the game that seem to indicate such before.

It's worth noting that D'sparil's sprites are called SOR1 and SOR2 (On serpent and off respectively), while the Heresiarch’s sprites are also named SOR2.

Interestingly, the HeXen 2 intro shows an image of D'sparil's serpent instead of D'sparil himself when referring to D'sparil.

HeXen 2 Intro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tQ69bgxcmw

However, the HeXen 2 expansion has a wall texture showing D'sparil on his serpent.

Old Post 12-24-11 18:47 #
Vermil is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!


Posts: 7042
Registered: 07-07



printz said:
He was? Was it initially planned for him to be a mount?

http://i.imgur.com/D0D7n.png
I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

Then there's the Heretic endscene (with the Heresiarch sitting on a throne) and the aforementioned resemblance between the Heresiarch and D'Sparil. Compare their respective garbs, and the way they die. Korax looks a lot like D'Sparil's mount, and the Heresiarch looks a lot like D'Sparil.

Old Post 12-24-11 19:00 #
Gez is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
printz
CRAZY DUMB ZEALOT


Posts: 6844
Registered: 06-06


Maybe they look similar, but Raven decided (at the last minute?) to go for a twist. We are apes too.

Vermil said:

Interestingly, the HeXen 2 intro shows an image of D'sparil's serpent instead of D'sparil himself when referring to D'sparil.

Let's hope that's a goof, and that the mount wasn't the mastermind, or the plot will thicken...

Old Post 12-24-11 19:08 #
printz is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Wagi
Member


Posts: 273
Registered: 11-10



yellowmadness54 said:
Too, Heresiarch shows up at the end of heretic on the screen after beat D'sparil. So perhaps Heresiarch was meant to be Korax, afterall.
EDIT: I should probably read through the thread a bit more before posting from now on.


Furthermore: The ending asks "Then again, what about the other serpent riders?" Right after it asks that question, it shows Heresiarch. Not only that, but he has a crystal ball at the ending of Heretic. Can you tell me what magical artifact do you get after beating Hexen?

Old Post 12-24-11 20:57 #
Wagi is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Vermil
Senior Member


Posts: 1223
Registered: 03-04


One could query what we are looking at in the crystal ball at the end of Heretic (an early version of the final room maybe) and also who the hanging black robed guy is above the ball.

Technically, the only thing the player in HeXen is known to recieve at the end of HeXen is a vacation to the realm of the Deathkings: the ending text of HeXen DK doesn't confirm that the player is actually able to make off with the sphere.

Last edited by Vermil on 12-24-11 at 21:18

Old Post 12-24-11 21:07 #
Vermil is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Grain of Salt
Member


Posts: 629
Registered: 12-10


Interestingly, I watched the Heretic ending sequence recently (hi Vordakk), and I was reminded of how little sense that heresiarch-esque image makes, and I was tempted to start a thread about it. But then I didn't.

I do think it's pretty much beyond doubt that at one point Korax was planned to be a red, demonic wizard, very much in the vein of D'Sparil. As well as everything that's been mentioned so far, the heresiarch has very similar attack animations -- raising its arms as if collecting energy and then thrusting them forwards. And, similarly to D'Sparil summoning disciples, the heresiarch summons dark bishops. Fighting the heresiarch seems like a complete replication of the D'Sparil fight, except without the mount.

However, I don't think Korax being the six-armed serpent sprite was a last minute decision, and I don't think Hexen's development was particularly rushed -- either with regards to this decision or in general. The six-armed Korax concept is executed too well for it to be a snap decision. His iconography is spread throughout the game. I'm not really convinced by the idea of the six-armed sprite as a mount, either. It seems far too detailed. I'm trying to imagine the hersiarch riding that sprite, and my mind just shuts down. I have no real evidence for this, but my personal impression is that by the time that sprite was created, the heresiarch had already been demoted.

In a similar theoretical vein, I seem to recall an illustration in the Hexen II manual that looks like concept art for a Serpent Rider who is actually riding a serpent, and who doesn't seem to be D'Sparil. Was Eidolon ever intended to be a robed wizard with a mount? It seems less likely, since they already dropped that theme with Korax, but I suppose the idea could have come up at some point in development.

I have to say... in a weird, undefinable way, Heretic feels like a game that should have a humanoid wizard for a boss, and Hexen feels like a game that should have a non-humanoid non-wizard for a boss. I can't really explain why I think this, but I do. Heretic feels quite refined and inhabited, while Hexen feels more distant -- built-up areas seem wrecked and abandoned, and there are far more areas where you're completely outside civilization, in the wilderness. A wizard is an archetype that suggests a cultivated aptitude for the occult, and depicting D'Sparil as a wizard (even if he is supposed to be a demon) is suggestive of a very human type of villain. Korax, on the other hand, is physiologically demonic, which is suggestive of a completely different, more impersonal vision of evil: something that is born evil. And I think that's far more in keeping with its Hexen's art direction. I like the heresiarch more than Korax, but I really can't imagine him as the final boss.

Old Post 12-25-11 15:50 #
Grain of Salt is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
kristus
Megablast!


Posts: 9682
Registered: 07-00


The korax iconography in Hexen would work just as well for the Heresiarch sprite as it do for the Korax sprite.

Also, all sprites in Heretic and Hexen are based off of 3d models. So even if the sprites weren't done the models could have been. As it is now, the Heresiarch sprite is a bit too big to ride the Korax sprite as a mount. But that would have been relative as long as they were models.

http://www.doglike.org/temp/KORAX_The_SERPENT_rider.png

Old Post 12-25-11 20:24 #
kristus is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Vermil
Senior Member


Posts: 1223
Registered: 03-04


Something else I also thought interesting, was the pose Korax was shown in, in the HeXen 2 Intro; his entire body was horizontal (the sprite in HeXen walks upright) except the legs; kind of like a two legged horse.

Four of his 'arms' (though you can't tell if there is hands at the ends) are also pointed vertically upward (the other two can be seen hanging down like standard arms); D'sparil stabs his serpent to make it attack. If Korax were originally suppose to be a mount, maybe he was controlled by pulling on these vertical 'arms'.

The same video as above: Korax appears in the crystal ball at 0.40.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tQ69bgxcmw

Last edited by Vermil on 12-25-11 at 21:33

Old Post 12-25-11 21:24 #
Vermil is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Grain of Salt
Member


Posts: 629
Registered: 12-10



kristus said:
The korax iconography in Hexen would work just as well for the Heresiarch sprite as it do for the Korax sprite.

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/2571/muralcomparison.png

I'm really not seeing it.

Or did you mean it would have been easy to replace the Korax themed decorations with heresiarch themed ones?


http://www.doglike.org/temp/KORAX_The_SERPENT_rider.png

The whole thing still seems quite bizarre to me, even making allowances for the scale. As a muscular, demonic humanoid with wizard robes, the heresiarch sprite is already a fairly ambitious mix of fantasy themes. Throwing in a skeletal lizard mount with six arms makes it seem a little over the top, and I have a hard time imagining that someone thought that would fit the tone of Hexen. I think it's more likely that the Korax model began as an attempt to make a mount (which explains its body and posture) but missed that mark and instead came to be seen as a separate monster. Basically, I don't think the two sprites we now know were ever meant to be put together. I think they diverged early in the design process, and what exists now isn't representative of the concept where one rides the other.

And just to add to the miscellaneous information in this thread, one thing I noticed while skimming through sprites was that the heresiarch's death involves it being reduced to a skeleton and falling to the ground -- another thing that seems like a variation on D'Sparil. (Note to self: read thread entirely before posting). It's impossible to say for sure, but it seems like Hexen might once have been intended to be a fairly close retread of Heretic. So many things either reappear unchanged or seem like they were designed as counterparts to things in Heretic.

Last edited by Grain of Salt on 12-26-11 at 00:06

Old Post 12-25-11 23:51 #
Grain of Salt is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Quasar
Moderator


Posts: 4615
Registered: 08-00


I do see a resemblance between all three of these:

http://eternity.mancubus.net/pics/sorc/sorc.png

http://eternity.mancubus.net/pics/sorc/FINAL2.png

http://eternity.mancubus.net/pics/sorc/wallface.png

It's the teeth mainly that tie it to the original Heretic ending, although the missing nose and the permanent scowling eyebrow ridges are also shared in common between those last two.

I think it's a lot more likely that the Heresiarch grew out of the original idea for the next game's boss and the textures were meant to resemble it, and then when they were not satisfied with having another robed spellcasting trident-marked sorcerer who explodes into a skeleton when he dies for a final boss, they retrofit the Korax design with similar-enough features that it would also resemble the textures.

There are other incidental facts in the game that suggest this. Such as the fact that the Heresiarch's Seminary hub's map level numbers are the highest in the IWAD. To me this suggests that it was originally envisioned to be the final hub and they later reorganized the flow of the game along with the new final boss idea. This didn't necessarily happen late into the process; in fact it may have happened very early.

Hexen WAS rushed, though. The Necropolis maps are full of glaring bugs like HOMs, Eric Biessman couldn't find the time to align ANY of his textures, several of the maps have game-killing glitches in the ACS scripts that are glaringly obvious and can be triggered by mistake, and also, at LEAST two maps were cut from the game: in particular MAP07 is missing despite having unique music assigned to it and a partial MAPINFO entry. There is a missing chapel level as well - they planned on 5 total, including the secret, and only included 4.

The beta screenshots of Hexen, released in August 1995, 3 months before the game came out, include pictures of some locations that do not feature in the final game, including one entire swamp level that is *not* Dreadmere - this may have been the "Black Crypt Swamp" level that Kevin Schilder mentioned to me in his email and which gave the song "Crypt" its title.

Old Post 12-26-11 02:17 #
Quasar is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Grain of Salt
Member


Posts: 629
Registered: 12-10



Quasar said:
It's the teeth mainly that tie it to the original Heretic ending, although the missing nose and the permanent scowling eyebrow ridges are also shared in common between those last two.

I'll grant you the missing nose and eyebrow ridges. What do you say to the six arms and the shape of the eyes? Those details look overwhelmingly like references to the Korax sprite, and I can't see any way that the texture could have been designed without them and then altered to the version we have now.


There are other incidental facts in the game that suggest this. Such as the fact that the Heresiarch's Seminary hub's map level numbers are the highest in the IWAD. To me this suggests that it was originally envisioned to be the final hub and they later reorganized the flow of the game along with the new final boss idea. This didn't necessarily happen late into the process; in fact it may have happened very early.

While I do agree with this assessment, I don't think we can be 100% certain that the Heresiarch was always fought in that hub.

Moreover, the map numbers in the wad file could be in that order for any number of reasons. It is likely that the seminary hub was placed at the end and then moved backwards in the MAPINFO, but there are other things that don't really fit this idea, like the dummy map information that comes after the seminary maps. There's also the empty space in map entries where seminary would be if it actually came in order (the MAP14 to MAP20 markers). That, to me, suggests that seminary could have started where it is now, been moved manually to the end of the game, and then moved back to its original place, this time with MAPINFO code rather than the actual map numbers. Basically, anything could have been done to the map order, and if traces of it didn't happen to survive in the innards of HEXEN.WAD, we'd never know about it. Our information on this is always going to be incomplete in ways we're not necessarily aware of.


several of the maps have game-killing glitches in the ACS scripts that are glaringly obvious and can be triggered by mistake,

I somehow missed all the game-killing bugs in Hexen for the first five years I owned it. I know they're there, but they seem a lot more lenient with me than with other people. At the very least, I think they're not always as obvious as you think.


and also, at LEAST two maps were cut from the game: in particular MAP07 is missing despite having unique music assigned to it and a partial MAPINFO entry. There is a missing chapel level as well - they planned on 5 total, including the secret, and only included 4.

The only fault here is that this information was preserved in the wad file. Cutting maps isn't a sign of rushed development.


The beta screenshots of Hexen, released in August 1995, 3 months before the game came out, include pictures of some locations that do not feature in the final game, including one entire swamp level that is *not* Dreadmere - this may have been the "Black Crypt Swamp" level that Kevin Schilder mentioned to me in his email and which gave the song "Crypt" its title.

If you don't give me a link to these pictures, I may physically evaporate.

Edit: Unless you mean this, in which case I've already seen it and I didn't previously notice that those shots included one or more of the beta swamp maps. Very interesting, even if it's not as revealing as I'd hoped from your description.

Last edited by Grain of Salt on 12-26-11 at 03:40

Old Post 12-26-11 03:27 #
Grain of Salt is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
printz
CRAZY DUMB ZEALOT


Posts: 6844
Registered: 06-06



Quasar said:

It's the teeth mainly that tie it to the original Heretic ending, although the missing nose and the permanent scowling eyebrow ridges are also shared in common between those last two.

Oh my God. I feel deceived. It... can't be. :(

Old Post 12-26-11 05:00 #
printz is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!


Posts: 7042
Registered: 07-07


Also note the shape of the hood on the Heresiarch (looks kinda like if it was fitted over a ♣). This would fit with the bony growths on the jowls of the Korax face texture. The Giger Serpent that ended up being Korax does not feature them.

As for the six arms things, I'm not seeing it. The six wedges around the Korax face aren't arranged as arms (two on each side and two vertically aligned instead of three on each side) and there's not much in the way of symbolism to make them evoke hands or arms. They just look ornamental.

Old Post 12-26-11 11:55 #
Gez is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
printz
CRAZY DUMB ZEALOT


Posts: 6844
Registered: 06-06


Question is, why would Korax clone himself and let himself die by the player, while leaving the army to another guy? Or is the six armed fellow his son?

Old Post 12-26-11 12:27 #
printz is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Lorenzo
I only cheat sometimes!


Posts: 482
Registered: 08-05



Quasar said:

at LEAST two maps were cut from the game: in particular MAP07 is missing despite having unique music assigned to it and a partial MAPINFO entry. There is a missing chapel level as well - they planned on 5 total, including the secret, and only included 4.



Where did those maps end? Is it possible to rescue them?

L.

Old Post 12-26-11 16:14 #
Lorenzo is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
All times are GMT. The time now is 04:39. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
Pages (2): [1] 2 »  
Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Classic Doom > Doom General > Heresiarch/Korax

Show Printable Version | Email this Page | Subscribe to this Thread

 

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are OFF
[IMG] code is ON
 

< Contact Us - Doomworld >

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.5
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Forums Directory