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Megamur
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Which would you prefer Id making: an HD remake of DOOM/DOOM II (either just the original games but with better graphics, or complete overhauls like the Gamecube Resident Evil), or a retro sequel that looks and plays like DOOM II but has all-new levels and gameplay features?

On the one hand, a straight HD remake of the original DOOM is practically what people wanted DOOM 3 to be: same gameplay, same sort of level design, just much, much better graphics and audio. So that would fulfill some dreams for some people, as well as possibly get some new players into DOOM. However, it'd kind of be more of the same for us longtime players, and probably wouldn't impress purists who are fine with the original graphics.

On the other hand, a retro sequel would take everything we already love about DOOM and give us more of it. Think of Mega Man 9: same graphical design, sounds and overall gameplay as before, but new music, levels, weapons, enemies and level design features. On the downside, this would basically just be offering a fancier version of what a really dedicated community project could already provide.

Which would you rather see?

01-16-12 03:12 #

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Technician
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Megamur said:
Which would you rather see?

Neither.

01-16-12 03:24 #

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chungy
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Mega Man 9 didn't succeed because of its NES-style looks; it succeeded because it wasn't condescending to mature players like MM7/8 were. Mega Man 7 and 8's artistic style lent itself to scream "WE ARE ONLY SUPPOSED TO BE PLAYED BY KIDS". If Mega Man 9 had more of an art direction like Mega Man X or the Sega Mega Drive ports of MM1/2/3, it still would have been well-received.

In Doom's case, there was nothing really wrong with the artistic style of Doom 3. What Doom 3 did wrong was a rather lackluster presentation and maps for much of the game, and mostly in the beginning of it. Where the game really took off and felt more like Doom 1 or Doom 2 were, was in the Hell levels and everything after that, but it was already so late into the game, it felt like you waded through 75% of a mediocre game just to get to the good parts.

As Technician says, I wouldn't prefer either one of your scenarios quite honestly. I would rather have a brand new game; new resources, looking modern, everything, with level design and monster placements/challenges comparable to the original games. Serious Sam 3 did this well as a throwback to the original Serious Sam games (though while Serious Sam 2 was only a minor blunder, SS3 feels more important just because of the slew of games that dare to even call themselves FPSes these days), but it also has entirely new levels, and for a large part, they even learned lessons from the original Serious Sam games; less emphasis on arenas or ridiculously large architecture.

01-16-12 03:49 #

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Megamur
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chungy said:
Mega Man 9 didn't succeed because of its NES-style looks; it succeeded because it wasn't condescending to mature players like MM7/8 were. Mega Man 7 and 8's artistic style lent itself to scream "WE ARE ONLY SUPPOSED TO BE PLAYED BY KIDS".

So Mega Man 1-6 didn't look like it was supposed to be played by kids? And doesn't this mean that MM9's looks really were important, if apparently 7 & 8 turned off mature audiences with their looks? (For the record, I think people were bothered less by how "mature" MM7 & 8 looked and more by how the gameplay was altered, with 7 having very large, clunky sprites and 8 feeling rather slow compared to the NES games.)

And remember that the question wasn't, "Should Id make one of these?" but "Which would you rather see?" Just humor me and assume one was definitely coming out, and pick which you'd rather be playing. :)

01-16-12 04:00 #

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Technician
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Megamur said:
So Mega Man 1-6 didn't look like it was supposed to be played by kids? And doesn't this mean that MM9's looks really were important, if apparently 7 & 8 turned off mature audiences with their looks? (For the record, I think people were bothered less by how "mature" MM7 & 8 looked and more by how the gameplay was altered, with 7 having very large, clunky sprites and 8 feeling rather slow compared to the NES games.)

No, it's becasue Mega Man 9 didn't cater to today's generation's difficulty tolerance. Today kids like to sit down and win with lesser effort. Mega Man 9 catered to the adults that sat through the classic game's difficulty.

01-16-12 04:13 #

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chungy
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Megamur said:
So Mega Man 1-6 didn't look like it was supposed to be played by kids?

They were definitely after children playing the game, but as far as LOOKS are concerned, the NES graphical limitations didn't allow them to go full on with the backgrounds, levels, sprites, etc looking like actual toys. Certainly as I'm now an adult that still plays them occasionally, I envision them in a rather gritty light -- the same kind of art style that the Mega Drive ports previously mentioned went for, or the Mega Man X style. The MM7/8 styles really did feel condescending, as if you should be embarrassed to even be playing them if you were older than around 10 years old. (And for what matters, the game play sacrifices mattered too, but not nearly to such an extent; there are unofficial 8bit-style remakes of both games that drastically improve both of them)

As for the topic and humoring you on which one I'd rather see if either one was inevitable: I'd rather see a full-on HD remake. There are already plenty of great WADs that might as well serve as "retro sequels", an official one would just be another one to mix into the pot, and likely won't even be as good as many community efforts.

01-16-12 04:17 #

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gemini09
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I was going to say HD-remake, but a retro-sequel would probably be my choice. While HD-graphics would be really sweet, it would be better to opt for new weapons, monsters, and levels, because it would add something new to the game - both from a player's standpoint as well as a mapper's :)

Although, I should emphasize that the new graphics and such would need to line up right next to the original resources and be immediately convincing in their authenticity. If they were to be Skulltag- or Hacx-material, I'd go with HD :)

Last edited by gemini09 on 01-16-12 at 04:25

01-16-12 04:20 #

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bimlanders
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I bought a new computer in 2004 specifically because of the release of Doom 3. I never even finished the game after getting stuck too many times in dark, samey looking maps. Bring on the retro sequel. People might act like they're above that sort of thing, but I'd play it and probably love it in a heart beat.

01-16-12 05:19 #

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Technician
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If given no other choice, I'd say a retro sequel. I have no confident in a company being able to properly emulate Doom's charisma. Many developers have made remakes of classics, and few have done them right.

01-16-12 05:25 #

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Avoozl
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In my opinion, I'd say HD remakes are only bad when not much effort has been put into them while making them rushed and made to appeal to the larger audience, however I do like retro sequels when enough hearty content has been added to them and have been given a decent length.

01-16-12 05:35 #

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PRIMEVAL
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Retro Sequel raises the chances for higher modifiability.

01-16-12 05:43 #

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Rayzik
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I can't help but point out a strong gravitation towards Doom 4 with this question... However, I say retro-sequel.

01-16-12 05:53 #

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DoomUK
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I've been thinking about this a lot recently, in conjunction with what I want/fantasise Doom 4 to be. Though it's unlikely ever going to happen, I can conclude that I would like to see a remake of Doom, in a similar vein to the Gamecube remake of Resident Evil. I would also like Doom 4 to be a return to the abstract look and feel of the old Doom games.

The problem is that the art direction of Doom/II would be very difficult, though not impossible, to pull off with a modern game engine. The "REmake" was a comparatively easy task because the original Playstation game was made in an era where such games had a "realistic" visual quality to them, albeit limited on a technical level to the hardware capabilities of the time. Doom's art direction was a product of even more limited hardware resources, but worked in it's favour; the abstract, otherworldly, blocky look of the game was what was decided at the time in the name of maximum performance and what became it's appeal, and lasts to this day.

Flash forward to 2012, and we have a highly advanced game engine like idtech5 which is catered towards crafting comparatively like-like environments. The journey towards creating increasingly photo-realistic worlds has sacrificed a certain visual quality which old games had. I know there's games like Alice Madness Returns and Trine and whathaveyou that have highly creative art direction, but it's been a while since I've seen the development of a shooter take risks and do something genuinely unique with it's aesthetics. I guess Portal is the closest thing to a shift in the paradigm I've seen, but even that has a grounding in realism and grittiness compared to what shooters of ye olden days looked like.

So yeah, the thought of a faithful Doom remake which harnesses the power of modern hardware, yet looks like the old games gives me a nerd boner. Though I'm aware of what a paradox this is and the unlikeliness of it ever happening. Sigh.

01-16-12 09:04 #

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Maes
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Exactly how would a retro-sequel be different than what is already achievable (and achieved many times over) with source ports? The situation is uncomparable with e.g. Megaman or Mario because in those cases the benefits of closed source development and trademark exclusivity still apply: you can get genuine Megaman and Mario games with the "proper feel" only from Nintendo (assuming they don't shit all over the franchise), and amateur/freeware recreations just aren't the real thing, while emulators are likely illegal and they just allow replaying the older titles.

With Doom, id gave up on source code exclusivity long ago, so any commercial overhaul of the original engine will have to compete (probably unfavourably) with free source ports, which offer nearly exactly the same experience as the original, if not a better one.

They still do have trademark exclusive rights of course, and could make an "official" hi-res Doom engine with proper 3D graphics...but it's unlikely they'd spend resources on developing one from scratch: probably they'd license something like Risen 3D, and I can only imagine the butthurt that would ensue here over licenses, over how port X became a sellout etc. etc.

Even releasing a sort of updated Doom95-like port that runs under XP/Vista/7/Linux/Mac to use as an "official" source port would encounter criticism, and most likely it would not be developed from scratch (ok, in the XBox versions they did something like this, but how well would that be received by the community, really?)

Then there's the issue of the levels: would you pay for an "officially sanctioned" source port that simply plays the classic IWADs with better graphics? What about it having some exclusive levels/episodes? Would it have to be compatible with existing IWADs/WADs/DEHs etc.? Exactly where would you draw the line between "new product" and "commercial source port"?

Last edited by Maes on 01-16-12 at 09:26

01-16-12 09:17 #

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DoomUK
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Maes said:
Exactly how would a retro-sequel be different than what is already achievable (and achieved many times over) with source ports?

Well, I've yet to see a source port that looks as good as this (taken from here).

I'm not saying that's what I have in mind when I think of a "HD Doom remake". Exact copies of the original architecture plastered with hi-res textures isn't going to work, outside of an impressive piece of rendering that was made with different intentions in mind. But it's a step in the right direction and the closest thing I've seen to what's floating around in my imagination ;)

01-16-12 09:30 #

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Maes
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In that case, the obstacle is the overwhelming amount of artwork required as well as a ray-tracing engine, but otherwise it would be technically achievable: take the original architecture and use completely different rules for texturing it (e.g. detect nukage/water floors and replace them with a proper physics-modeled liquid).

Excluding the case of custom graphics, this approach would be compatible even with a good deal of PWADs. I'm not sure if e.g. Risen3D's hires pack can come close to that quality, at least for what regards walls.

01-16-12 09:37 #

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Phobus
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(G)ZDoom and some of the better mods for it are basically the retro sequel and Classic Doom 3 shows me what a HD Remake of E1 (and therefore Doom) could look like. As we already have both of those things I think it's somewhat unnecessary for id to do either. We (as a community) are experienced enough to do a better job of making retro Doom mapsets anyway.

01-16-12 10:13 #

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Porsche Monty
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I hear Carmack himself has considered the possibility of a Quake remake with all the looks and sensibilities of the original title, so who knows.

Maybe porting classic Doom to a true 3D engine like Quake2 can only be accomplished by multi-million dollar companies that can put many man hours into it and that's why we're left with all these ugly, sluggish, 3d floor hacks in the source port community.

Would I be happy if ID came up with something that looks like that raytraced scene? of course, but it would have to come packed with a brand new episode and regular pwad compatibility to get my seal of approval.

01-16-12 11:12 #

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DoomUK
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Phobus said:
Classic Doom 3

With all due respect to the guys that made it, Classic Doom 3 is an example of how you can't just apply realistic-looking textures to simplistic, retro 3D architecture and get away with it. If you thought it looked good then I'm not going to judge, but personally I think for such a project to be a success you need to abandon the idea of making it look realistic and use a Borderlands-style cartoony art direction.

Porsche Monty said:
I hear Carmack himself has considered the possibility of a Quake remake with all the looks and sensibilities of the original title, so who knows.

This idea sounds awesome and I hope it's realised.

01-16-12 11:14 #

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Gez
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HD Remake: Classic Doom 3; JDRP; Risen3D.
Retro Sequel: No Rest for the Living.

01-16-12 11:44 #

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Maes
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DoomUK said:
This idea sounds awesome and I hope it's realised.

And then it was Doom 3? :-p

Gez said:
HD Remake: Classic Doom 3; JDRP; Risen3D.

Just as I noted: too much competition from free source ports in that department to be worth the effort. If they ever do a HD remake, it won't be marketed towards die-hard classic Doom fans for this very reason.

Retro Sequel: No Rest for the Living.

Notice how this was only released on a platform which is (relatively) free from piracy, and a parallel (or even future) PC release didn't follow.

Why? (Also) to avoid the burden of developing a new "official" Doom source port which would compete with the multitude of free ones on the PC (the new episode is beyond doom2.exe's capabilities), and to avoid reducing the new release just to an IWAD which die-hards would just hack into source ports, thus making a stand-alone release moot. On the XBox/Wii, there was no such competition or isses so they could work undisturbed with a "clean slate".

Last edited by Maes on 01-16-12 at 12:28

01-16-12 12:21 #

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DoomUK
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Maes said:

And then it was Doom 3? :-p

Ignoring your troll and assuming you're being serious, you can hardly say Doom 3 had "all the looks and sensibilities of the original title". It was a spiritual reboot of Doom with some nice design qualities of it's own, but nothing close to the aesthetic or gameplay philosophy of the original.

But yeah, we'll have to wait and see how it turns out of course. If it turns out at all.

01-16-12 12:31 #

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Maes
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DoomUK said:

Ignoring your troll and assuming you're being serious, you can hardly say Doom 3 had "all the looks and sensibilities of the original title".

Indeed, it did not. And I was pretty serious in suggesting that it might end up as yet another community-splitting dumbing down, simply because unless someone with a hardcore "oldschool" mindset takes over the publishing process and fires the various marketroids, a game with design goals and principles too divergent from the various "top sellers" like CoD, Crysis etc. will be considered too risky an enterprise.

01-16-12 12:37 #

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DoomUK
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Maes said:
unless someone with a hardcore "oldschool" mindset takes over the publishing process and fires the various marketroids, a game with design goals and principles too divergent from the various "top sellers" like CoD, Crysis etc. will be considered too risky an enterprise.

Ok, I wish you weren't right about this part, but you are. :(

01-16-12 12:41 #

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Phml
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It's not Doom, but the Serious Sam series has been doing pretty much the same thing for eleven years and still sells well.

If you only look at AAA games selling dozens of millions of copies with billboards plastered everywhere and exclude everything else, you are part of the problem (if there is one, which I'm not convinced of).

01-16-12 13:37 #

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DooM_RO
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DoomUK said:
I would also like Doom 4 to be a return to the abstract look and feel of the old Doom games.

And how exactly is that possible in a modern game?

If I were to make Doom 4, I would divide it into 3 episodes, each episode having its own flavour, complete with different weapons(even though at their core they are the same).The first episode would be a complete remake of KDITD (remade textures, aesthetics etc) while the others will be in another setting to keep things fresh.

DoomUK said: It was a spiritual reboot of Doom with some nice design qualities of it's own, but nothing close to the aesthetic or gameplay philosophy of the original.

You know...Recently I have started playing doom 3 again and have finished it 4 or 5 times.At the beginning of the game I have noticed some vague similarities, but as the game progressed, the game felt more and more classic, especially after the hell level because the action becomes much more intense.They even remade E1M6 which is more or less similar to the original.Oh and they also ported a few textures from doom 1, that was really cool imo.

I was thinking...since doom 3 is a re-imagining of doom 1 there could be a wad that remakes all the Doom 3 levels in classic doom, using only doom 1 resources and where needed some stuff from doom 2.

01-16-12 14:12 #

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DoomUK
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DooM_RO said:

And how exactly is that possible in a modern game?

Imaginations, how do they work?

Like I said it certainly would be a tricky task. But not implausible.

01-16-12 14:58 #

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jute
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Maes said:
(e.g. detect nukage/water floors and replace them with a proper physics-modeled liquid)

I really wish a source port would implement this.

01-16-12 15:53 #

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purist
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I wouldn't really care for a HD Remake of Doom unless it had additional features like accumulative damage on monsters for example and in any case I get enough of an aesthetic fix from GZDoom and Brutal Doom.

I would really like to see a Retro Sequel, especially if new resources like a new weapon and half a dozen new monsters are included. It may not stand up to the better PWADs but I don't see why it shouldn't since No Rest For The Living was so warmly received, and even if it does the additional official maps and resources would be worth the money.

01-16-12 18:40 #

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qoncept
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The problem with Doom 3 is that it just wasn't Doom. Doom was lots dumb monsters either moving toward you or shooting. When it's "hard," it's more monsters. Doom 3 didn't have that at all.

01-16-12 19:04 #

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Doomworld Forums > Classic Doom > Doom General > HD Remake vs. Retro Sequel

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