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Antroid
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The only new textures in TNT that don't look like ass are some wooden crates and the second and third skies. The rest looks like crappy blurry cell-phone photographs of somebody's wallpapers, riddled with JPEG artifacts and half-mirrored to make it tile properly.

Old Post 01-03-13 08:47 #
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Avoozl
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That's actually noise not jpg artifacts.

Old Post 01-03-13 09:58 #
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Antroid
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As if that makes them look any better.

Old Post 01-03-13 13:28 #
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Altima
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Having spent way too much time in this map than any sane, normal person should, allow me to list the good and the bad of this map, and "why does it get so much dislike?"

Good:
- The detailing in this map is above the bar. Having the slime actually fill up the reservoir is a really cool, unique touch that makes an imprint upon the memory when you think of this map.
- Also on the detailing, that multi-sectioned lowering wall thing that is right at the run to the exit. The one surrounded by Specters with the Berserk/Invuln. Really cool job there I must say. Pushing the engine to it's limits and again, leaving that nice impact of something neat you'll remember.
- Having a secret INSIDE of the actual part tagged as the exit was something memorable. No other map in Doom, Doom 2, and Final Doom, pull this off. That is, if memory serves me correctly. This gives it a unique way of sending you off to the next map that you'll remember.
- You don't need any keys to finish this map, making it easy to just skip the whole thing if you choose.

...that's... that's about it.

Bad:
- The hallways are a jumbled mess. Sure, the detail on the bottom sides of them are neat with the "stair" effect, but actually USING it as part of a door to get into the rest of the tunnels is ridiculous. The doors in the pipe maze are horribly designed. You have to cross two separate linedefs to open the one door, only to have half of it slap shut in your face because a Specter or Shotgunner got in your way. It's awful.
- Secrets are so far out of the way and so badly placed that you will probably miss at least one most of the time. To make that worse, the secrets are areas of the map that are, again, out of the way to reach. Each one is tagged to open by a linedef that's a complete inconvenience to get to. Add that it will most likely be in a place you won't be looking. The Soulsphere is about the only 'good' secret in the map.
- No solid theme. We go from tunnels to the outdoors, sure, that's fine. However, including that blue underground area and the crates seem out of place. The rocky portion of the tunnels could work with the outdoor nature this map gives off if it wasn't for the...
- ...bad texture combinations. That repeating white light on the wall gets pretty annoying to look at after a while when in combination of the rocky textures above and below. Also, why is there a liquid texture in the ceiling of the tunnels? Never could figure that one out. The random slime textures seem a little out of place, despite the touch it gives when it fills that reservoir toward the end. Looking down long hallways with those particular textures can strain the eyes, too.
- Combat in the map is spaced out and not very fun. Boring is a good word. You are running through 90-degree-turning-hallway after 90-degree-turning-hallway and shooting Shotgunners. The occasional Specter and Zombieman. Mostly Shotgunners. All 48 of them are in the tunnels, giving them almost no monster versatility. Even the outdoor parts aren't interesting in combat. A wide-open Arch-Vile with some Hell Knights on a hill is about as interesting as it gets, and that's still boring.

Now that I've covered all of this, let me give you the absolute #1 reason this map DESERVES the dislike that it gets: If you are playing the map on Nightmare or -respawn and you even TOUCH the tunnels, good luck finishing the map. You'll almost consistently crash out of vanilla Doom with a "no more flats!" error.

This is obviously an issue that's exclusive to the old DOS Doom since source ports have removed limits and won't crash at something like this. Yet, take a step back and think about it. This was released for Doom before source ports were a 'thing'. Nightmare isn't something normally played, and neither is -respawn. However the point is that this map will consistently crash the game under these circumstances because there is *too much detail* in the map. Too much going on at one time. This is something officially released. This is an official map. All things considered, this is a rather large flaw to have in a map that's "official" and such.

As ironic of a statement as this is considering how dull and boring the map is, the amount of detail ends up being it's nail in the coffin. All of the detail is in the wrong places. The good details are in bad places or are part of bad ideas, and all the bad details stand out like a sore thumb.

There is nothing about the map that can be redeemed, it teaches you nothing if you rush to the exit, the combat is boring, uneventful, and repetitive. Sections of the map make absolutely no sense (considering that TeamTNT was going for a more realistic approach).

No, on second thought, there is one redeeming factor that might provide the *only* reasonable argument this map has in opposition of it being the worst map in the game.

You don't need any keys and don't even have to fight any enemies to finish the map.


Hopefully I've provided at least a detailed view of why this map is the worst map in TNT... and could very well be the worst officially released Doom map to date.

Old Post 02-23-13 14:13 #
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Eris Falling
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Adding to the above post


Altima said (on his LP of this map):
I miss The Chasm...


I think this sums up how much you hate it.
I've never made a serious attempt to try this map, but now I'm kinda scared to.

Old Post 02-23-13 19:57 #
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Tarnsman
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Of course he misses the Chasm. It's a great map.

Old Post 02-23-13 20:17 #
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ASD
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Altima said:
moving platforms limit

That must have been a pain for NM100S -and UV -respawn runners.

Old Post 02-23-13 20:36 #
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Altima
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ASD said:

That must have been a pain for NM100S -and UV -respawn runners.



You have no idea. I just recently recorded 1:34 for NM100S and out of 3+ hours of attempts, 25 times getting to THAT spot, 20 crashes. So roughly 80% crash rate...

Also, no, the Chasm isn't a great map. The Chasm is terrible. Who seriously enjoys tightrope walking on scrambled narrow ledges as part of a feature for a map?? It's also mostly boring with a little action thrown in.

Old Post 02-24-13 06:28 #
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Antroid
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I always liked the atmosphere of the Chasm. Huge underground areas tend to be very cool for me. I didn't even care that it looked more or less like shit.
Still a better level than most of TNT.

Old Post 02-24-13 18:13 #
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BaronOfStuff
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MAP22 is pretty crap, but it's like a return to acceptable standards after this massive pile of winding time-consuming shit:
http://doomwiki.org/w/images/6/6b/TNT_MAP20_map.png

MAP21 is fairly awful too; MAP22 may suck nuts, but compared to its closest two predecessors it's fun to be able to just run through something in only a few minutes. Although fuck those tunnel areas. They really are insufferable.

Old Post 02-28-13 14:17 #
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Altima
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Map20 may be huge, but the outdoor area is very well designed. It feels as if it has 'floors' and it's a very complicated area. It's a nice change of pace in contrast to all the cavernous areas that are to come later. Not to mention Map21's outdoor area is *AWFUL* and pathetically empty and underthought.

You also forgot to mention Map27 if you want to talk about large maps. The music is terrible and you're forced to listen to it for like, 20 minutes. Plus it's lack of health makes it almost unfair at times, especially the ending. Map20 has some nice atmospheric music with a thoughtout design, imo.

Also, Map20 won't crash your game because there is too much detail.

Old Post 03-14-13 14:32 #
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Daiyu_Xiaoxiang
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The design of Map22 is ugly, I agree with this. Actually that maze is useless since you don't need any keys and the you can exit! As for Map21, if you are patient enough, that map sucks too. Map20 is huge, but I really love this map, the music is one of the best in Doom.

Map27........Another favourite map of mine. Challenging but very fun, 2 disadvantages is that the teleporting system inside that huge sewerage hall sucks, and music too loud.

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Last edited by Daiyu_Xiaoxiang on 03-16-13 at 08:01

Old Post 03-14-13 18:42 #
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Snakes
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BaronOfStuff said:
MAP22 is pretty crap, but it's like a return to acceptable standards after this massive pile of winding time-consuming shit:
http://doomwiki.org/w/images/6/6b/TNT_MAP20_map.png

MAP21 is fairly awful too; MAP22 may suck nuts, but compared to its closest two predecessors it's fun to be able to just run through something in only a few minutes. Although fuck those tunnel areas. They really are insufferable.


Completely disagree with this. Map20 is loaded with atmosphere and has enough interesting ideas and visuals to stand on its own two legs. Habitat is just a shoddily-designed, near-breakable map that really has nothing going for it.

Map21 is pretty bad, though.

Old Post 03-15-13 17:41 #
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Tarnsman
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Screw everyone Map 20 and Map 21 are great. Map 27 however, by the same author, is the worst map in TNT.

Old Post 03-15-13 21:58 #
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Processingcontrol
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Map20 is great, Map27 is mixed, and Map21 is bad but still tolerable.

Map22 is the worst map in TNT.

Doom II is the worst IWAD, but Doom I would be worse if it wasn't for E4.

Cats are better than dogs.

Blue is the best color.

Old Post 03-17-13 03:36 #
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Archy
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Processingcontrol said:
Doom II is the worst IWAD, but Doom I would be worse if it wasn't for E4.

...you have issues.


Processingcontrol said:
Cats are better than dogs.

Those who disagree with this are not worthy of life.

Old Post 03-17-13 03:50 #
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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Why the dislike? Well, the ugly ugly start for one thing. I mean, just idclev to the start of that map and check the view that greets your eyes. Clashing colors, and glaring brightness. I even thought this level was ugly back in 96 when I first played the final doom iwads, and you know a level is ugly when you think it is ugly in 1996.

The other reason for the dislike is some of the most unintuitive pathing ever. The blue key 'door'... well it is just an indistinguishable wall. Without modern sourceports that color the linedefs according to the key requirements, how were you meant to find this? Also the access to the sewers at the start, having to run into that nukage pit and using another unintuitive door disguised as a wall to get through to those narrow brown ashwall/LITE5 sewer corridors. And that is assuming that you figured that those 3 pillars of green nukage were walkthrough rather than impassable bars, which I didn't, certainly not straight away. And the invisible wall at the back of that big marble room where you get the blue key from. This level is a tutorial on how not to do keys and key doors and general progression. And don't get me started on the big silver pipe which you have to 'use' to access the exit area. I remember even in 96 thinking 'how the hell was I supposed to work these things out out?' after spending several long periods wallhumping.

But in it's defence, that sewer area with the brown ashwall and the inset white lights looked pretty amazing, that whole sewer area was very impressive. And the fight for the yellow key was a scary fight too. Several good secrets, including the megarmor in the actual exit well.

Definitely a mixed map.

Also, I like cats and dogs equally.

Last edited by KiiiYiiiKiiiA on 03-17-13 at 04:57

Old Post 03-17-13 04:26 #
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Archy
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:
Also, I like cats and dogs equally.

You deserve the right to life, so long as you pay a hefty fee.

Old Post 03-17-13 04:31 #
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Looper
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Altima said:

Who seriously enjoys tightrope walking on scrambled narrow ledges as part of a feature for a map??


:( I do. The ledges won't lie when you make a mistake.

Old Post 03-17-13 20:16 #
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