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Vulture
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Can someone give me more info on how the versions of Doom and Doom 2 that come with Doom 3: BFG Edition work? I saw a screenshot of Doom 2 from BFG edition and noticed the berserk pack had the pill icon instead of the red cross. Does this mean the iwad was modified or was it patched over via different means? I am interested in this because it might mean having to hard code an exception into the multiplayer ports to allow the BFG version's iwad to connect to vanilla 1.9 iwad servers.

Old Post 10-16-12 19:08 #
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BaronOfStuff
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If it's just sprites that are changed, then it will be compatible. Players were fucking with modifying bits and pieces in their IWADs long ago in order to gain unfair advantages in Deathmatches.

Old Post 10-16-12 19:19 #
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Eris Falling
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IIRC, they were ported to id Tech 5. I imagine that would use some modifications to the IWADs.

Old Post 10-16-12 19:23 #
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Vulture
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BaronOfStuff said:
Players were fucking with modifying bits and pieces in their IWADs long ago in order to gain unfair advantages in Deathmatches.


The multiplayer ports of this day and age prevent iwad modification by not allowing users with modified iwads to connect to the server. While this keeps people from messing the with content of an iwad, it would require the ports to have a hard coded exception to allow the BFG version of doom2.wad to connect to servers. What changes are made to the iwads in BFG is what I need to know because sprites and sounds are an easy exception and will not desync. However if the levels are modified... that's a little more complicated.

Old Post 10-16-12 19:31 #
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Xaser
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I wouldn't see why they'd need to be modified -- the port could easily handle any of the differences. Best to check for sure, of course.

[EDIT] Whoops, guess I could've read about the medikit thing. v1.9a? <_<

Last edited by Xaser on 10-16-12 at 20:26

Old Post 10-16-12 20:16 #
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Grazza
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It's possible that the red crosses were changed only due to this issue, and not because they decided to make lots of random changes for the hell of it. It's possible that there aren't (m)any other changes.

Old Post 10-16-12 21:00 #
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Xaser
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So, I'm poking around at the wads a bit, and there are indeed some changes. Sewers and Betray are included, for one (for better or worse <_<), and there are some new graphic lumps here and there.

Haven't officially catalogued anything just yet, but this is intriguing. Wouldn't be surprised if the IWADs are unmodified from the XBLA versions, but this is still new stuff for PC.


[EDIT] Actually, of the two extra maps, only Betray is included. Doom2.wad is likely the XBLA version, but Doom.wad is based directly on Ultimate Doom's IWAD, from what I can tell. No modified E1M1 or Sewers... no big loss, really. :P

Last edited by Xaser on 10-16-12 at 22:18

Old Post 10-16-12 21:27 #
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Sodaholic
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I'd love to check this out to see the differences in all the included games, but Steam keeps saying "I/O error". I had to restart the download, let's hope it works this time. :/

Old Post 10-16-12 22:17 #
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Gez
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So apparently, the Wolfenstein levels have been modified.

Old Post 10-16-12 22:22 #
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Sodaholic
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Gez said:
So apparently, the Wolfenstein levels have been modified.

Interesting. What's changed? Please don't tell me that they censored it like SNES Wolfestein just to appease the retarded censors of the German government.

Old Post 10-16-12 22:26 #
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Xaser
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SS Nazis are gone (SSWV sprites are replaced by copies of POSSA1 and the actual in-game monsters are zombiemen now), and all Wolfenstein name references are gone. MAP31 and MAP32 are called "IDKFA" and "Keen" now.

Old Post 10-16-12 22:39 #
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Sodaholic
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What? That's terrible. How about the Wolfenstein textures? Also, what about the SS sound files?

Old Post 10-16-12 22:42 #
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Cire
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The wolfenstein textures with nazi references are gone, the rest are still there. The Wolfenstein sounds and songs are gone.

Old Post 10-16-12 23:23 #
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Sodaholic
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Cire said:
The wolfenstein textures with nazi references are gone, the rest are still there. The Wolfenstein sounds and songs are gone.

Well, my download finished, and yes, they removed the Nazi textures. They're still there as texture definitions, but the patches that go to them are duplicates of the bare walls. The SS's sound effects are still there, unmodified, but the music is replaced.

This is even worse than the SNES version. I wish they'd've just done the changes the SNES version had instead of removing content.

Old Post 10-16-12 23:42 #
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Cire
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Yeah you're right about that.

Old Post 10-16-12 23:44 #
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Graf Zahl
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Sodaholic said:

just to appease the retarded censors of the German government.



FYI, Germany is not the only country having problems with gratuitous use of nazi symbols.

If this is marketed internationally via outlets like Steam, they have to go. Period.

It's not that anyone here would suffer from it. Hands up who doesn't own Doom2.wad in any proper form!

Old Post 10-17-12 00:05 #
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AlexMax
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So wait, Doom 3: BFG edition actually ported Doom to run on the Rage engine? How is it as far as a port...can you load external maps or anything of that sort?

Old Post 10-17-12 00:09 #
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Technician
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Vulture said:
Can someone give me more info on how the versions of Doom and Doom 2 that come with Doom 3: BFG Edition work? I saw a screenshot of Doom 2 from BFG edition and noticed the berserk pack had the pill icon instead of the red cross. Does this mean the iwad was modified or was it patched over via different means? I am interested in this because it might mean having to hard code an exception into the multiplayer ports to allow the BFG version's iwad to connect to vanilla 1.9 iwad servers.
The Red Cross logo has strict laws regarding it's usage:

Q: Is National Law Involved in the Use of the Name and Emblem?

A: Yes. To ensure universal respect for the protective nature of the Red Cross symbol, the Geneva Conventions obligate adhering governments to prohibit the unauthorized use of the name and emblem in both war and peacetime. Each government that is a party to the treaties enacts laws to protect the Red Cross name and emblem within its boundaries. The rules in this country were set by the U.S. Congress when it first granted the American Red Cross its charter on June 6, 1900, and they are now set forth in Sections 706 and 917 of the U.S. Criminal Code.

source: http://chapters.redcross.org/ok/okc...very/emblem.htm

I remember the Sleepaway Camp boxset (slasher franchise) was recalled becasue the Red Cross threatened to take legal action for using their logo on their artwork.


Also, fuck Germany.


AlexMax said:
So wait, Doom 3: BFG edition actually ported Doom to run on the Rage engine? How is it as far as a port...can you load external maps or anything of that sort?
No, only Doom's netcode has been modified with Rage's.

Last edited by Technician on 10-17-12 at 00:29

Old Post 10-17-12 00:11 #
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Sodaholic
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AlexMax said:
So wait, Doom 3: BFG edition actually ported Doom to run on the Rage engine? How is it as far as a port...can you load external maps or anything of that sort?

They're running the original engine inside idTech5 as a wrapper. The gameplay isn't actually running in the idTech5 engine.

Old Post 10-17-12 00:11 #
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Sodaholic
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Graf Zahl said:
FYI, Germany is not the only country having problems with gratuitous use of nazi symbols.

Which is unfortunate, given that in this instance, it's actually portraying it in a very negative light.


Graf Zahl said:
If this is marketed internationally via outlets like Steam, they have to go. Period.

Again, very unfortunate. As long as it's not being used to promote what the symbol represents, I don't see the issue with it. Stupid international laws...


Graf Zahl said:
It's not that anyone here would suffer from it. Hands up who doesn't own Doom2.wad in any proper form!

I thought the secret levels kinda sucked, but it was part of the original game, and I think it's a shame that it had to be castrated like this.


Again, why couldn't they have done the same changes they made in the SNES version? And furthermore, why did the music need to go? They did keep the SS sounds in the IWAD, they just weren't used.

Old Post 10-17-12 00:15 #
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Badboy
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but i wanna shot nazis, its my right as a german! as Technican said, fuck Germany.

>And furthermore, why did the music need to go? They did keep the SS sounds in the IWAD, they just weren't used.

devers did it before. look up xbox360 version, betray and sewers from old xbox were unplayable, and the old music. maybe its easier to leave it.

Last edited by Badboy on 10-17-12 at 00:29

Old Post 10-17-12 00:17 #
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Sodaholic
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Huh. MAP04's music is still intact, despite being a Wolfenstein track. It would've been more appropriate to have used Chaingunners in place of the SS guys. Morons.

Old Post 10-17-12 00:21 #
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Graf Zahl
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Sodaholic said:

Which is unfortunate, given that in this instance, it's actually portraying it in a very negative light.



That's debatable. The way they are used in Wolfenstein would never get away with 'historic accuracy' or similar excuses. It's gratuitous, plain and simple, to plaster all walls with swastikas, Hitler images and other Nazi things.



Sodaholic said:

Again, very unfortunate. As long as it's not being used to promote what the symbol represents, I don't see the issue with it. Stupid international laws...



You wouldn't call it stupid if you had experienced what the Nazis have done. I guess we need to get at least a full generation's distance to WW2 to change this attitude.



Sodaholic said:

I thought the secret levels kinda sucked, but it was part of the original game, and I think it's a shame that it had to be castrated like this.



It could have been done more intelligently - like in some international versions of Return to Castle Wolfenstein where the swastikas were replaced by symbols that clearly looked fascist but weren't actual Nazi symbols. But this would have cost more money than just removing them.

Old Post 10-17-12 00:26 #
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Badboy
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last sentence from graf zahl hit it right. the main focus was the console versions of doom 3, so thats clear it all up.

Old Post 10-17-12 00:31 #
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Sodaholic
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Graf Zahl said:
That's debatable. The way they are used in Wolfenstein would never get away with 'historic accuracy' or similar excuses. It's gratuitous, plain and simple, to plaster all walls with swastikas, Hitler images and other Nazi things.

It's absolutely gratuitous, and in no way historical, but, they're portrayed as villainous nonetheless.


Graf Zahl said:
You wouldn't call it stupid if you had experienced what the Nazis have done. I guess we need to get at least a full generation's distance to WW2 to change this attitude.

I haven't lived through it, but still. Hiding from reality, no matter how horrific it is, is cowardly.


Graf Zahl said:
It could have been done more intelligently - like in some international versions of Return to Castle Wolfenstein where the swastikas were replaced by symbols that clearly looked fascist but weren't actual Nazi symbols. But this would have cost more money than just removing them.

True, it would've cost more money. I suppose they decided that it wasn't worth it. Either way, they already had modified resources that they themselves made, which was the content of the SNES version. They could've at least used the sounds of the SS guys. I realize that the wall textures are a quarter the size in the SNES version than they are in Doom 2, so that might prove to be an obstacle.

Old Post 10-17-12 00:36 #
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chungy
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Graf Zahl said:
That's debatable. The way they are used in Wolfenstein would never get away with 'historic accuracy' or similar excuses. It's gratuitous, plain and simple, to plaster all walls with swastikas, Hitler images and other Nazi things.

You wouldn't call it stupid if you had experienced what the Nazis have done. I guess we need to get at least a full generation's distance to WW2 to change this attitude.


What soda's not saying directly still applies: Censorship is wrong no matter the subject that is trying to be hidden. Hell it definitely has had next to no effect to curtailing Neo-Nazi movements even inside Germany (small as they may be).

Old Post 10-17-12 01:29 #
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Death Egg
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I think the two music tracks in the Wolfenstein maps were actually based on real Nazi music or something, so that's why they were probably removed. Maybe it wasn't the case with MAP04's track?

Old Post 10-17-12 01:30 #
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Gez
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Death Egg said:
I think the two music tracks in the Wolfenstein maps were actually based on real Nazi music or something, so that's why they were probably removed. Maybe it wasn't the case with MAP04's track?

The only "real Nazi music" in Wolfenstein is the titlescreen song, the Horst-Wessel-Lied. D_EVIL and D_ULTIMA were created specifically for Spear of Destiny and Wolfenstein 3D.

Old Post 10-17-12 01:58 #
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Sodaholic
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chungy said:
What soda's not saying directly still applies: Censorship is wrong no matter the subject that is trying to be hidden.

No, I definitely did say that:


Sodaholic said:
Hiding from reality, no matter how horrific it is, is cowardly.

Old Post 10-17-12 02:07 #
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Avoozl
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I don't understand why things that were allowed in games in the past have to be removed when they are being re-released years later.

Old Post 10-17-12 03:14 #
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