Archvile
Register | User Profile | Member List | F.A.Q | Privacy Policy | New Blog | Search Forums | Forums Home
Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Classic Doom > Doom General > The gritty VGA look: Why do you like it?
Pages (2): [1] 2 »  
Author
All times are GMT. The time now is 01:20. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
GoatLord
I really should think before I post.


Posts: 2654
Registered: 07-02


In vanilla Doom and ports such as Zdoom, you get that classic 256-color look, which is ugly by today's standards but an important aesthetic to many old schoolers. I've often wondered what's so damned captivating about it, and I think it has to do with the contrast. The darkest shade of grey in the Doom palette is many shades from black, so when exploring very dark areas, both the monsters and the textures have this contrasty look that dissipates when using a port that utilizes a larger color palette. The light diminishing almost creates a bump map-like effect in very dark areas too, as the limited palette eliminates a lot of visual details in a very compelling way. It's a shame that a lot of newer gamers probably regard this look as rather crude and ugly.

Old Post 11-13-12 19:37 #
GoatLord is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
darkreaver
Senior Member


Posts: 1916
Registered: 05-08


I love the contrast and darkness it gives. I always use software when playing/mapping/testing maps, but sometimes I check out my maps in opengl mode just to have a look (as I figure most players use opengl these days), and the nice dark and gritty atmosphere simply disappears.

Old Post 11-13-12 19:53 #
darkreaver is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
esselfortium
A Major Doomworld Concern


Posts: 6589
Registered: 01-02


The lighting is much different than in GL ports I've tried, and yeah, it can give things an interestingly gritty appearance. The Doom palette's red range is atrociously inefficient, though.

Old Post 11-13-12 20:24 #
esselfortium is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Enjay
ASK ME ABOUT FOOTBALL / STEAM / DEAD CELEBRITIES / THE BLAIR WITCH PROJECT


Posts: 6381
Registered: 12-00



GoatLord said:
The gritty VGA look: Why do you like it?

I don't. Despite having played Doom almost from day 1, I have no special attachment to the original appearance nor do I have any particular ideas about how Doom is "meant to be". I think GL ports improve the appearance and I see no real need to play on something that I don't find as attractive.

Old Post 11-13-12 20:29 #
Enjay is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
qoncept
Member


Posts: 434
Registered: 12-11


Very few new games have the level of contrast Doom does without looking like a cartoon or Wipeout XL. One thing that always stands out to me more than anything is how awful high-res sprites look. Even if they're done well, they don't stand out like the originals. The original pixelated sprites are all pretty instantly recognizable. The high res versions, even the good ones, don't stand out like that for whatever reason.

So I prefer to play with all of the original sprites and textures but with the game at a higher resolution. The advanced OpenGL effects are too much. Colored and dynamic lighting is always too dramatic and causes weird artifacts (like seeing light from a torch on the other side of a wall). Fixing the geometry when looking up and down is cool but I never have freelook turned on anyway.

Old Post 11-13-12 20:39 #
qoncept is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Phobus
Forum Staple


Posts: 2880
Registered: 10-06


I've never been able to put my finger on it - maybe it's just familiarity? - but I can have the resolution as high as it goes, as long as its the software renderer rather than a 3D one the games just looks better to me. The way the lighting works must be quite a big part of it.

Old Post 11-13-12 21:45 #
Phobus is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Sodaholic
I feel justified yet disgusted with myself at the same time


Posts: 2843
Registered: 04-07


I do like the gritty appearance, but that probably has more to do with the low resolution than the color degradation. Personally, I prefer true-color software rendering, but I still prefer 32 steps of lighting as opposed to 256.


darkreaver said:
I figure most players use opengl these days

Hmm, are you sure? Perhaps we could start a poll to find out.

Old Post 11-13-12 21:50 #
Sodaholic is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Dragonsbrethren
Senior Member


Posts: 2457
Registered: 03-09


Like essel said, lighting and distance fading is handled much differently in software than GL renderers, and that's primarily what gives it its look. It's not a matter of software being limited to 8 bit color either, Mocha Doom in hi/true color still looks closer to 8 bit than GLBoom's fog-based renderer (the only one I know of that does good distance fading). I hope more software ports implement true color in the future.

Old Post 11-13-12 22:00 #
Dragonsbrethren is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
fraggle
Filled with the code of Doom


Posts: 7663
Registered: 07-00


I'll give an honest answer and the only one that makes sense: it's nostalgia and the sense that "that's just how Doom looks". There's nothing superior or "captivating" about the limitations brought by a 256-color palette, and any of you who think otherwise are kidding yourselves.

Old Post 11-13-12 23:25 #
fraggle is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Use3D
Forum Legend


Posts: 4714
Registered: 04-02



fraggle said:
There's nothing superior or "captivating" about the limitations brought by a 256-color palette, and any of you who think otherwise are kidding yourselves.


The only ones kidding themselves are those who speak for other people.

Old Post 11-13-12 23:28 #
Use3D is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
darkreaver
Senior Member


Posts: 1916
Registered: 05-08



fraggle said:
I'll give an honest answer and the only one that makes sense: it's nostalgia and the sense that "that's just how Doom looks". There's nothing superior or "captivating" about the limitations brought by a 256-color palette, and any of you who think otherwise are kidding yourselves.


Uhm. Fail. Try again.

Old Post 11-14-12 00:32 #
darkreaver is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Sodaholic
I feel justified yet disgusted with myself at the same time


Posts: 2843
Registered: 04-07



darkreaver said:
Uhm. Fail. Try again.

What Fraggle said makes complete sense. I don't see how he "failed". :/

Old Post 11-14-12 01:05 #
Sodaholic is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!


Posts: 11149
Registered: 07-07


Did anyone here forget that Fraggle is the guy behind Chocolate Doom?

Old Post 11-14-12 01:18 #
Gez is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
CODOR
Forum Regular


Posts: 836
Registered: 02-06


320x200x256 is how God intended it to be played.

Old Post 11-14-12 01:33 #
CODOR is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Sarcose
Mini-Member


Posts: 54
Registered: 08-04


Okay here's the thing. Yes it's nostalgia, but it's also that Doom's conventions were determined around its limitations. Mappers tend to prefer making maps that look like Doom maps, go figure, and Doom's entire art style was predicated on said limitations. Smoothing out those graphics makes it look limited, while keeping them pixelated is a more compatible aesthetic.

I designed a map in Timesplitters 2 based on my preference for Doom - blinking lights, multi-choice corridors with large antechambers connecting. I preferred browns and contrasting colors. It looked awesome; it would not have been improved by gritty pixelation at all.

Honestly a big part of it is this: Doom spriting is probably among the best spriting there is. Look at SNES FX chip masterpieces and tell me those games don't look beautiful. Spriting is an art form that was refined to a great point. Smoothing it over as a "step up" is a step down - like early 3D, technically more impressive than spriting, looked like crap. Use the photoshop setting that smooths edges on a Doom screenshot and it does not improve the quality - gradients remind people of the early internet and that was NOT good visual design. 3D graphics took about two generations to begin looking really good, to the point where 3D games had memorable graphics. I don't think anyone will argue that Wolfenstein has amazing spriting.

Old Post 11-14-12 02:22 #
Sarcose is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Dragonsbrethren
Senior Member


Posts: 2457
Registered: 03-09


Why are so many people unaware of the fact that you can disable (bi/tri)linear filtering in GL ports? You can have your pixelation in a hardware renderer and it still looks nothing like software because of the lighting (and sprite clipping, among other things).

Old Post 11-14-12 02:30 #
Dragonsbrethren is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
gamul312
Green Marine


Posts: 49
Registered: 12-11


I usually like the way the art and sounds originally looked in any game, regardless of when it was made, but it does help if some other factors are taken into account, such as the kind of monitor and controls that were used at the time.

Last edited by gamul312 on 11-14-12 at 21:46

Old Post 11-14-12 05:32 #
gamul312 is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
GhostlyDeath
Forum Retard


Posts: 1027
Registered: 08-05


I do it for nostalgia.


Gez said:
Did anyone here forget that Fraggle is the guy behind Chocolate Doom?


What's Chocolate Doom?

Old Post 11-14-12 07:08 #
GhostlyDeath is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
BaronOfStuff
Senior Member


Posts: 1279
Registered: 06-08


I couldn't give a shit either way whether I'm playing with Software or OpenGL. Whichever renderer I use, Doom's still Doom.

Old Post 11-14-12 12:52 #
BaronOfStuff is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
mouldy
Senior Member


Posts: 1529
Registered: 02-12


I mostly play doom on my laptop and old-school is the only way it can run smoothly. I do find that the low resolution of the sprites and textures is made all the clearer when they are well lit though. That grittiness acts to homogenise the visuals in much the same way that film grain does. And like film grain, what once was a necessity of the medium becomes a stylistic choice over time.

Old Post 11-14-12 12:54 #
mouldy is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
DoomUK
Forum Staple


Posts: 3855
Registered: 04-04



Enjay said:
I think GL ports improve the appearance and I see no real need to play on something that I don't find as attractive.

Basically this. I like my Doom to look as crisp as possible without doing anything to it that compromises the original look and feel (such as those awful 3D models for jDoom).

Old Post 11-14-12 12:56 #
DoomUK is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
MajorRawne
Senior Member


Posts: 1307
Registered: 04-10


I didn't play the PC version of Doom until the late 90s so I "grew up" playing the PSX version, which is gritty as hell. Even now I still remember the weird thrill of looking across a map, seeing movement but not being able to resolve what it was, and watching incoming fireballs gradually increase in size to crash against the wall behind me. Vesperas in Final Doom was the best for this: stand in one of the raised windows and look across a starlit map. It's quite eerie.

It's nice to have modern source ports which clear the graphics up, but they don't always seem "right" if they aren't horribly pixellated, especially when the monsters get close up.

Old Post 11-14-12 15:19 #
MajorRawne is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
GoatLord
I really should think before I post.


Posts: 2654
Registered: 07-02



GhostlyDeath said:
I do it for nostalgia.



What's Chocolate Doom?



I've never played it but I believe it's a source port that attempts to approximate Doom as closely to the DOS version as possible.

Old Post 11-14-12 15:55 #
GoatLord is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
40oz
Forum Spammer


Posts: 6845
Registered: 08-07


I like how things get brighter as they are coming closer to you, as if the monster is lunging out from the shadows. It's an effect that isn't very well simulated in OpenGL. Also OpenGL and other hardware renderers tend to make the sprites and textures look horribly antiquated when you can so easily view the mosaic of pixels they're made of, or worse, when the textures are all blurred together.

Software rendering really helps the low resolution graphics coalesce by making things looks pixelated at a distance anyway

Old Post 11-14-12 16:28 #
40oz is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Sodaholic
I feel justified yet disgusted with myself at the same time


Posts: 2843
Registered: 04-07


I think that the notion that Doom was "meant" to look the way it did with the 256 color limitation is absurd. id themselves intended to have both a hi res mode and a hi color mode, only reason they didn't go through with it is because the most common hardware at the time wasn't powerful enough to make it work very well, and because by their own admission they were shortsighted as to how long people would be playing the game.

Old Post 11-14-12 16:30 #
Sodaholic is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Sarcose
Mini-Member


Posts: 54
Registered: 08-04


@Sodaholic: I'll respond to your post even if you weren't directing it at me, because I kind of argued for that point...

I don't think it was "meant" for graphical limitations either, but I DO think certain design decisions were based on those limitations, that wouldn't have been made if ID had gone ahead and decided on the higher res options being available... in other words, if ID had intended from the start to work with higher resolution options I think the design would have translated better to opengl source ports and graphical updates. I'm not arguing there's a Godly Ordained Way Of Playing, but rather that I think the pixellated graphics look better pixellated because they were working with pixellation, if that makes sense...

tl;dr: ID wouldn't have used shitty 90's internet gradients overlaying originally pixellated monsters if had been going hi-res in the first place, and their version would have looked way better than the fuzzy opengl version.

Basically I think it's like putting shoe shine on a tennis shoe versus a wingtip.

Old Post 11-14-12 18:01 #
Sarcose is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Graf Zahl
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!


Posts: 7747
Registered: 01-03


320x200 gives me eyesores.

Nothing nostalgic about it. I'd like to see the great architecture in many levels clearly, not in pixelated blur-o-vision.

Fraggle put it quite nicely.

'The way it was meant to be' is the greates pile of crap one can say about this kind of retro-mentality.

Old Post 11-14-12 19:28 #
Graf Zahl is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
darkreaver
Senior Member


Posts: 1916
Registered: 05-08


Just to make it clear; I do not use it because "it`s the way it`s meant to be", but because I like it. Period.

ps: are we talking 300x200 vs. other software modes, software vs. opengl, or what? I`m talking software vs. gl here, but I suddenly became uncertain what the topic really is about :P

Old Post 11-14-12 19:36 #
darkreaver is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Sarcose
Mini-Member


Posts: 54
Registered: 08-04


I play in a higher res than 300x200 but still pixellated, personally.

Old Post 11-14-12 20:33 #
Sarcose is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
TimeOfDeath
Forum Regular


Posts: 2717
Registered: 06-06


I only use software mode and I do honestly like it. Sometimes I'll try one of my maps in GL mode and the lighting I was aiming for in software mode was ruined in GL mode. I think GL mode looks good though, it's just different.

320x200 gives me eyesores too, yet I'm perfectly happy with 640x480.

Old Post 11-14-12 20:51 #
TimeOfDeath is online now Profile || Blog || PM || Homepage || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
All times are GMT. The time now is 01:20. Post New Thread    Post A Reply
Pages (2): [1] 2 »  
Doomworld Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.5 Doomworld Forums > Classic Doom > Doom General > The gritty VGA look: Why do you like it?

Show Printable Version | Email this Page | Subscribe to this Thread

 

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are OFF
[IMG] code is ON
 

< Contact Us - Doomworld >

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.5
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.